250 vs 250...... Dear DC

Outsider
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Outsider 10/12/2013 5:37am
10/12/2013 5:37am
newmann wrote:
Okay, so how about that 125 class? Seems to be working out pretty well across the pond. KTM, Yamaha, TM, Husqvarna. There is your "Big 4"...
Okay, so how about that 125 class? Seems to be working out pretty well across the pond. KTM, Yamaha, TM, Husqvarna. There is your "Big 4". Six rounds, 125cc National Championship. No television required. I'll still provide some holeshot award money. It could even be a 150 class, as I already have a bike ready to go to the line. Lord knows, someone needs to be riding this thing.....Smile

i would love to get all kinds of stains on that beauty! Buuut,,, 3rd place in the 40 class probably isn't what you meant.


IMO, just change the rules already... CC for CC... I really don't see much difference happening... yes, the occasional stand out race, but pretty much business as usual. WHO CARES?
35smom
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35smom 10/12/2013 5:50am
10/12/2013 5:50am
You cannot compare MX or SX to Nascar, F1 or MotoGP. How many privateers show up to those races with a bike in the back of their truck or towing a race car with all their gear, tools etc. in the bed? Our sport is unique as it does not eliminate those without deep pockets. Its always been that way.
Its not the "level" playing field aspect, but more a cost thing for the privateers. We've been thru it all. Had 3 motors go in the 250f this past year, all with valve damage and had to replace the head in each one. It was brutal. Cheaper to buy a new stock 450.
Now there's the option to race a bike, in this economy, that is more cost effective. How can that not be a good thing?
Shawn142
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Shawn142 10/12/2013 6:03am
10/12/2013 6:03am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 6:05am
mynewcr250 wrote:
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least...
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least for me, it was always just tinfoil hat talk, kind of bums me out, but at least its out there "officially".
Name me a major motorsport where the factories who actually build the engines or cars/bikes and invest huge amounts of money don't have any direct input into the rulebook. I can't think of anything where OEMs of any type are just willing to get dictated to on what to build and how to build it.
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hellion 10/12/2013 6:15am
10/12/2013 6:15am
I'm not sure if it's encouraging or disconcerting that DC is monitoring this thread. On the one hand, I believe that deep in his heart there beats a man who would like the two stroke to come back. Maybe for nothing more than nostagia, maybe for the good of the sports future, maybe because he likes the smell........On the other hand, I'm afraid he's in here to back up and defend a stance he's made which he feels is wrong but politically has no leg to stand on as far as effecting change.

I have gone around with DC on this in the past, both in here, and with email. It doesn't get anywhere. And Davey, sorry if you think I'm putting words in your mouth or thoughts in your head that aren't really there. It's just my opinion of what's really going on.

And Davey, as far as change coming from the bottom and speaking with our wallets; open your eyes. We are. You can't find a two stroke on dealer floors because they get snapped up as soon as they hit. The local race tracks are seeing more and more two strokes from the beginner class all the way to the pro class. KTM is taking over the world if you haven't heard and their foundation is built on the two stroke. They still sell tons of two strokes and still see it as a machine worthy of innovation and modernization.

Finally, I'm not a two stroke nazi. I own one right now but my next bike could easily be a four stroke. I just would like to see what would happen given a level playing field. My thought is that the two stroke would win out. Really, unless something changes with the Japanese we won't need to worry about keeping them happy too much longer. The European brands are returning to prominence and they have their eyes wide open. One thing about history, it does seem to repeat itself......

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burn1986
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burn1986 10/12/2013 6:38am
10/12/2013 6:38am
There needs to be a change in the rules.
And yes DC could allow some 2-stroke involvement outside of the premier classes at his events, but has refused.
Honda controls all AMA Pro MX and SX rules. Only they can make a rule change (and we know how they feel about 2-strokes).

US Pro MX racing is a show set up by DC (or promoters in general), Honda (and other manufacturers), and the AMA. It is their show, not anyone else's. We can show up and watch, and maybe even participate, but we have absolutely no say on what they do with their business. Just something to keep in mind.
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OldYZRider1 10/12/2013 7:17am
10/12/2013 7:17am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 7:22am
ga_pike wrote:
The problem I have with the OP's argument is that a 250 2 stroke is not a "feeder" level bike either. The sport has evolved. The...
The problem I have with the OP's argument is that a 250 2 stroke is not a "feeder" level bike either.

The sport has evolved. The days of guys jumping from 80's to pro are all but gone. With the exception of a guy like AC, most of them jump to the B class for a year or 2 before going pro. This gives them some time on the bigger bike and when they come out, they are more prepared to make the jump. Back when RC, Windham, and those guys came out, it was from 80 to 125. That's a key difference.

There is a feeder system already in place. It's called Loretta's, MEC, Mini-O's, and the like amateur national events. If these kids come up through the ranks, move to a 125 or 150 and then on the the 250F, Personally, I thin the racing at the 250 level in both SX and MX has been much better than the 450 class has been in the past couple of years. If I had my way, I'd do away with the 450 all together and run a 250 level 1 class where they limit the modifications and then an Open class as the premier class. This way, you can run whatever you want, fully works, no restrictions, no homo rule, run what you brung. Let's see what the factories are really capable of. Sure, it might be expensive, but you might see a privateer show up on a tricked out 2 stroke 500 AF.

That's my 2 cents which is worth, well, 2 cents.
Indy mxer wrote:
Thanks DC for coming on here telling it straight! Also good post ga_pike! Like it or not guys, pro mx and sx wouldn't be shit without...
Thanks DC for coming on here telling it straight!
Also good post ga_pike!

Like it or not guys, pro mx and sx wouldn't be shit without the OEM's. It's the same way in all forms of racing.
Without Ford, Chevy and Toyota going all in, NASCAR wouldn't be shit either.

Yes, we need to try take care of the privateers as much as is practical.
But at the end of the day, the OEM's are the ones committing the big bucks to our sport.
And we can't grow without their continued involvement and $.

Although, I would like to see Suz, Kaw, and Honda produce new 2 strokes. I feel it would help our sport at the amateur level
We can really use a 125 class again

Imo, the sport is in better shape now than it's ever been thanks to DC and Feld.
I see it often said that the OEM's are committing "big" money to the sport. Well how much is "big"; would the sport fold if the OEM's weren't directly involved. I mean they supply the machines for sale through dealerships that most teams buy and race so their products being represented in that manner. Currently there are factory teams involved, but if they weren't what would happen? How does the OEM's "money" in the sport compare to the energy drink companies contribution?

When I've gone to the national, to me it seems to be primarily a "Japanese" show. You walk in and see Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Makita. Well why not Ford, Chevy, Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc. Always makes me wonder about how much marketing effort the sport takes. From my observance of the amateur days that run on some of the national weekends, I'd say theirs alot of construction trades based participants and fans. So how about approaching Lowes, Home Depot, Menard's, Georgia-Pacific, Dow-Corning, US Gypsum, Certainteed, Caterpillar, Cummins; a whole slew of potential sponsors?? I know some of them are involved in NASCAR efforts but some of the smaller ones might find an outlet thru MX.

The sports got some really clean cut top guys that represent it really well, seems they should be able to rope in some additional sponsors and eliminate the OEM's "running" of the sport which is so apparent today. Villopoto should be able to draw in some ammo sponsers; those companies are doing well in today's world Smile
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Outsider 10/12/2013 7:21am
10/12/2013 7:21am
change the rules... "If you build it, they will come".

Nothing's gonna change, get it done already
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ForToo 10/12/2013 7:22am
10/12/2013 7:22am
If the OEM's weigh in so heavily on this, why has the transition been made in most every other top tier series around the globe without substantial manufacturer influence? Are sales in the states that significantly higher?
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Shawn142 10/12/2013 7:24am
10/12/2013 7:24am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 7:29am
Have no doubt the sport would continue without direct OEM support. But make no mistake a big part of the funding to put it on TV comes from OEMs, especially Kawasaki who have several infomercials every week. Those aren't spots given to them out of the kindness of NBC's heart, they are paid for. The OEMs employ a huge part of the paddock including team managers, mechanics, obviously riders, and support people. Without them all those jobs are not picked up by other private teams. And without that TV exposure the big outside sponsors the sport does have disappear. I couldn't see Monster or Redbull sticking around. What use would Toyota or Dodge have in supporting teams that only a few thousand people are going to see? The sport would simply shrink down to your average European national championship run at a much lower level.

And if you think the purse is a joke now, imagine what it would be if it was only supported by event ticket sales.
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Overdrive 10/12/2013 7:56am
10/12/2013 7:56am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 8:03am
The bottom up change is happening, the euro oems are nurturing that change.

How difficult would it be to help nurture that change at the national level, even if its just to run a 125cc main event during intermission between moto's? DC your feeling the pressure from the bottom up change that you said would have to happen. How long will you resist?

We made a change in the rules to give 4 strokes parity with the 2 strokes when they were down on power compared to the 2 strokes. We never heard anyone say this will hurt the Japanese manufactures when that happened. Why is that? Because they knew 4 strokes were expensive, parts eating money printing machines.

Now we can't make a rule change to give 2 strokes parity with the 4 stokes because it will hurt the manufacturers! BS The manufacturers aren't looking out for the health of the sport, they are looking out for their pockets.

I understand they pay for advertising in the series, but at some point your going to have to make a change and take that chance. Who is looking out for the sport here, not them.
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newmann 10/12/2013 8:17am
10/12/2013 8:17am
Keep in mind that the people who wrote the rules were corrupt and some ended up in prison for stealing from their members. They were on the take from the OEMS and anyone who would line their pockets. Not much has changed it appears except no one seems to be going to prison lately. Why is the AMA still involved? Even the rag tag band of idiots over at AHRMA were able to clean some house, bring in some better people and move forward without the AMA. That group seems to be doing better on their own.
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newmann 10/12/2013 8:27am
10/12/2013 8:27am
mynewcr250 wrote:
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least...
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least for me, it was always just tinfoil hat talk, kind of bums me out, but at least its out there "officially".
Yep. Kind of makes the people who always post up the tin foil hat pictures look pretty sheepish if not outright dumb.
aFACEdismembered 10/12/2013 8:32am
10/12/2013 8:32am
The only 250 2 strokes that are still legal are currently produced by KTM and Yamaha. Everything else is past the 5 year acceptance limit to enter in AMA pro motocross competition. I call bullshit for factories not wanting "old bikes" on the track to water down their current years product. They don''t have old bikes that are allowed on the track except 4 strokes!!!
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DC 10/12/2013 9:03am
10/12/2013 9:03am
Newman wrote, "Keep in mind that the people who wrote the rules were corrupt and some ended up in prison for stealing from their members. They were on the take from the OEMS and anyone who would line their pockets. Not much has changed it appears except no one seems to be going to prison lately."

First of all, Dal Smilie went to jail for fraudulent travel expenses. He was not on the OEMs take and he had nothing to do with writing those rules.

Regardless, it sounds like you think I am on the take and should be in jail? Really?

Hellion, I chimed in here because the thread was directed towards me. Now I regret it, because everyone seems to like putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head.

And mynewcr250, the OEMs have some say and influence on every rulebook that's written in motorcycle racing, and probably auto racing as well. They make the equipment.

My primary fear with 250cc two-strokes is that one team will go all-in with them, develop them quickly, and dominate. If you think the OEMs will respond by going back to two-strokes, you are wrong. They will simply quit racing, that's my fear.

The US is different from these other series in size, magnitude, and investment by the five factories, all of which have equal influence. There is a balance right now in pro racing, and it appears to be working in that all five are very involved in both MX and SX and don't want to develop another set of bikes for those two series.

It is not ideal, but it's not as broken as you think.

DC
MX Sports
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malachi177 10/12/2013 9:09am
10/12/2013 9:09am
So you're scared that a two stroke would dominate and you fear the OEM's would quit if that happened. Well that's pretty much the icing on the cake. Anti-two stroke.
Overdrive
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Overdrive 10/12/2013 9:13am
10/12/2013 9:13am
35smom wrote:
You cannot compare MX or SX to Nascar, F1 or MotoGP. How many privateers show up to those races with a bike in the back of...
You cannot compare MX or SX to Nascar, F1 or MotoGP. How many privateers show up to those races with a bike in the back of their truck or towing a race car with all their gear, tools etc. in the bed? Our sport is unique as it does not eliminate those without deep pockets. Its always been that way.
Its not the "level" playing field aspect, but more a cost thing for the privateers. We've been thru it all. Had 3 motors go in the 250f this past year, all with valve damage and had to replace the head in each one. It was brutal. Cheaper to buy a new stock 450.
Now there's the option to race a bike, in this economy, that is more cost effective. How can that not be a good thing?
I can see how your experiences would really put a lot of pressure on a privateers racing efforts and I'm sure your just scratching the surface. A 2 stroke would alleviate a considerable amount of pressure from the budget I am sure.


As a privateer in the early 90's, I can say we would have never been able to afford a season like that.
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CR250Rider 10/12/2013 9:20am
10/12/2013 9:20am
mynewcr250 wrote:
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least...
The most informative part of this thread was Coombs actually admitting they are essentially hand in hand and catering to the OEMs. Before this, at least for me, it was always just tinfoil hat talk, kind of bums me out, but at least its out there "officially".
newmann wrote:
Yep. Kind of makes the people who always post up the tin foil hat pictures look pretty sheepish if not outright dumb.
"My primary fear with 250cc two-strokes is that one team will go all-in with them, develop them quickly, and dominate. If you think the OEMs will respond by going back to two-strokes, you are wrong. They will simply quit racing, that's my fear."


I'm dumbfounded. I feel like I was fed a shit sandwhich.

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Overdrive 10/12/2013 9:25am
10/12/2013 9:25am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 9:33am
I hope your not on the take and I don't think you are, just to comfortable with things the way they are and the grass roots (heart) of the sport is not growing. Its going backwards because of the price point to participate is getting way to high locally and nationally.

The 2 strokes need represented on the national level just like on the local level and you haven't laid out any way to get them there. Do you have any idea's how they can be represented on the national level?

I seem to remember a team developing a 250f quickly and dominating with it over the 2 strokes. Nobody quit they, got competitive. But it also drove up the cost.

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OW38B
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OW38B 10/12/2013 9:42am
10/12/2013 9:42am
Shawn142 wrote:
Have no doubt the sport would continue without direct OEM support. But make no mistake a big part of the funding to put it on TV...
Have no doubt the sport would continue without direct OEM support. But make no mistake a big part of the funding to put it on TV comes from OEMs, especially Kawasaki who have several infomercials every week. Those aren't spots given to them out of the kindness of NBC's heart, they are paid for. The OEMs employ a huge part of the paddock including team managers, mechanics, obviously riders, and support people. Without them all those jobs are not picked up by other private teams. And without that TV exposure the big outside sponsors the sport does have disappear. I couldn't see Monster or Redbull sticking around. What use would Toyota or Dodge have in supporting teams that only a few thousand people are going to see? The sport would simply shrink down to your average European national championship run at a much lower level.

And if you think the purse is a joke now, imagine what it would be if it was only supported by event ticket sales.
Holy Smokes! Allowing 2 strokes in and you end up with your logic?

I can see why the Four Stoke Facists think the way they do now. Jeez.
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FI2T 10/12/2013 9:42am
10/12/2013 9:42am
DC wrote:
Newman wrote, "Keep in mind that the people who wrote the rules were corrupt and some ended up in prison for stealing from their members. They...
Newman wrote, "Keep in mind that the people who wrote the rules were corrupt and some ended up in prison for stealing from their members. They were on the take from the OEMS and anyone who would line their pockets. Not much has changed it appears except no one seems to be going to prison lately."

First of all, Dal Smilie went to jail for fraudulent travel expenses. He was not on the OEMs take and he had nothing to do with writing those rules.

Regardless, it sounds like you think I am on the take and should be in jail? Really?

Hellion, I chimed in here because the thread was directed towards me. Now I regret it, because everyone seems to like putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head.

And mynewcr250, the OEMs have some say and influence on every rulebook that's written in motorcycle racing, and probably auto racing as well. They make the equipment.

My primary fear with 250cc two-strokes is that one team will go all-in with them, develop them quickly, and dominate. If you think the OEMs will respond by going back to two-strokes, you are wrong. They will simply quit racing, that's my fear.

The US is different from these other series in size, magnitude, and investment by the five factories, all of which have equal influence. There is a balance right now in pro racing, and it appears to be working in that all five are very involved in both MX and SX and don't want to develop another set of bikes for those two series.

It is not ideal, but it's not as broken as you think.

DC
MX Sports
DC some people have a tough time debating and keeping their cool. I appreciate you putting up with it.
The 250f's are putting down lap times and in some cases beating the 450's. DC the 4t rule change did not run the Oe's off! Leveling the field would not run them off now. They already have made bikes with similar tech to our 2014 YZ's.
Does Roczen beat Tomac in outdoors if he is on a factory 250sx? I don't think so.
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FARANG 10/12/2013 9:45am
10/12/2013 9:45am
malachi177 wrote:
So you're scared that a two stroke would dominate and you fear the OEM's would quit if that happened. Well that's pretty much the icing on...
So you're scared that a two stroke would dominate and you fear the OEM's would quit if that happened. Well that's pretty much the icing on the cake. Anti-two stroke.
It was pretty obvious that this was the reason. Even if the rule change was intending to help the privateer, someone like KTM would use the rule to showcase their smoker and put a top rider on a 250 2 stroke and start getting results (not necessarily dominating, but certainly competing and winning a few races). That would upset the Japanese OEM's, especially Honda who hate 2 strokes. So it won't be allowed to happen.

Kind of weird to have it confirmed though.
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Mxracer24 10/12/2013 9:56am
10/12/2013 9:56am
I don't get the fear that the OEM's will just pull out. What happened with 4 strokes being allowed? oh yea, they went with it.
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dantheman 10/12/2013 10:09am
10/12/2013 10:09am
A rule change(four stroke) would never run the OEM's off, if it is a monetary change in their favor!!! Which it was. Derrr...
Overdrive
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Overdrive 10/12/2013 10:10am
10/12/2013 10:10am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 10:13am
Mxracer24 wrote:
I don't get the fear that the OEM's will just pull out. What happened with 4 strokes being allowed? oh yea, they went with it.
The Japanese Oem's went with it because it meant more profit for them through higher prices and increased parts sales. Also dealers reaped the benefit of people not being able to work on their own equipment thus increasing service profit.

The Japanese Oem's went with it because they are the ones making all the decisions these days concerning what you will be permitted to purchase and ride if you want to be competitive at the national level and eventually on the local level through attrition.

Everyone else (AMA,DC) is now just running interference for the Oem's decisions. Even if its to the detriment of the sport.
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newmann 10/12/2013 10:10am
10/12/2013 10:10am
No Davey, quite the opposite. I've always considered you one of the best things to happen to the sport and still do. Never once have I passed you at the races without at least making an attempt to shake your hand and thank you for all you do. Doesn't make me have to appreciate the fact that no one seems too concerned about decades of 125 history being shit on here in the US. Best racing ever as far as I, the fan, is concerned and I don't think I am alone in thinking that it needs to return to the national stage.
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FlaNard 10/12/2013 10:13am
10/12/2013 10:13am
We all remember how quickly Suzuki, Kawi and KTM were ran off when the thumpers came along big in the early 2000's and had manufacturers go all in on their development and start winning everything in site. I remember James Stewart being sidelined for years as Kawi awaited the development of their 450. James had to cut hair just to pay his bills. Do you guys want that to happen again? The sport almost didn't survive the exile of three of its top teams and many of its top racers.
vanillaice782 10/12/2013 10:20am
10/12/2013 10:20am
I wonder how 90 pound Ciancurullio wold have done in his rookie season if they were riding 125s still instead of 250f hogs.
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Denn700 10/12/2013 10:30am
10/12/2013 10:30am
Radical wrote:
Thanks DC! I have a point to make and a plan that is great for manufacturers (new bike sales), and for our sport in general. In...
Thanks DC!

I have a point to make and a plan that is great for manufacturers (new bike sales), and for our sport in general.

In Indy car racing, they control the safety of the racers by reducing maximum displacement every few years as needed.
When the speed of the cars reaches a certain threshold they reduce maximum displacement.

In MX, we increased maximum displacement, and while I can't say there are more injuries today than in the past, I can say that they are far more intense. Faster speeds = More intense crashes.

I believe it's time in MX to equalize the speeds.

While were at it, we can bring back the 2 strokes, allow room for OEMs and aftermarket companies to innovate, while allowing time for everyone involved to make the adjustments.

Here's my plan without going into too much detail:

Change the classes to:
125 2 stroke vs 200 4 stroke
250 2 stroke vs 350 4 stroke

Transition Schedule

Provide 2 years advanced notice of rule change, then provide the following transition period.

During a period of 2 years for pro and 5 years for amateur, allow older 250F and 450F 4 strokes to race with a rev limiter limiting maximum RPMs. Apart from limiting RPM's, bikes can be modified at will. New bikes under the new displacement rules are free to race without RPM limits.

In 2-3 years, there will be an increase in NEW bike sales as lower displacement 4 strokes, plus new 2 strokes hit the market. Fans will want these new bikes being raced by the pros.

This gives the factories some time to retool, and keeps the cost down for amateurs who have recently purchased bikes.
It also brings the 125 back as the standard for the Lites class and provides the right stepping stone from the 85 class.

It also reduces the speed slightly which in my opinion is necessary to keep the riders safe.

We should lower 4 stroke displacement instead of allowing higher displacement 2 strokes. Why?
1) Because it could tip the balance back to 2 strokes which isn't MY intention.
2) Because the 125 and 250 2 strokes should be the baseline for the amount of power in each class. This would automatically bring the speeds down slightly for the next 5 years. After that it may be necessary to follow Indy Car racing's lead and lower maximum displacements.


Pro's
* New bike sales increase.
* Increase in aftermarket parts for the new bikes.
* Speeds brought down slightly
* Cost to race competitively in Amateur and Semi-pro reduced.
* Room for Innovation.
* Transition is not expensive for riders.
* Amateur racing numbers will increase as more families can afford to race.

I believe this will work.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Please tell me your thoughts.

Have a great day!
Radical
I had a 2012 KTM250SX and now I have a 2013 350. The 350 is faster and easier to ride than the 250 two stroke. I assume it would be the same for the 125 and 200. You have to think the 2014 KTM 250SXF makes 43 HP stock and the 2014 YZ250 makes 46 HP but the four stroke is easier to ride. The 2014 KTM 250 two stroke actually makes less hp than the 2013 because they moved the power around to make it easier to ride. Watch a start with the two bikes together. Any hp advantage the two strokes have is cancelled out by how much traction the 4 strokes get.The 250 4 and 2 are on par now. Any advantages one has is cancelled out by an advantage the another one has. Does anyone here think Tomac wouldnt have beat Roczen if he was on a two stroke?
Tumblin
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Tumblin 10/12/2013 10:30am
10/12/2013 10:30am
FlaNard wrote:
We all remember how quickly Suzuki, Kawi and KTM were ran off when the thumpers came along big in the early 2000's and had manufacturers go...
We all remember how quickly Suzuki, Kawi and KTM were ran off when the thumpers came along big in the early 2000's and had manufacturers go all in on their development and start winning everything in site. I remember James Stewart being sidelined for years as Kawi awaited the development of their 450. James had to cut hair just to pay his bills. Do you guys want that to happen again? The sport almost didn't survive the exile of three of its top teams and many of its top racers.
What a bunch of crap! Quite the difference developing an overweight one lung tractor motor than to go back to the simplicity of a smoker. Hell, you can build one in your damn garage! The technology in handling, suspension is currently and fluid. Motors certainly effect handling and set up but it's not like the OEM's don't R&D, sheesh! KTM built RD a new 450 motor in a few months, Hell Honda could stuff Windham's '01 motor into the new chassis and BAM!

But to start I agree with Newmann, get that 125 class to the gate!
Toste
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Toste 10/12/2013 10:47am
10/12/2013 10:47am
I think financially relying so heavily on Japanese OEM involvement is a mistake. Suzuki has already basically "cried Uncle". With MX bike sales trending the way they are, how much longer till the others follow suit? Unlike KTM, these are big companies that do not have off-road motorcycles as their "bread and butter" product line. If it doesn't pencil out in the ROI bottom line, they will stop doing it. Within the next decade, I could easily see all the Japanese OEMs out of the MX business altogether (including producing bikes).

Not trying to be "doom & gloom"...because factory teams or not, I think the Nationals will carry on with similar spectator attendance and rider participation. I just think it's foolish to bend to the will of companies who will likely be out of the game in the not-too-distant future anyway.

Post a reply to: 250 vs 250...... Dear DC