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So many we had 4 factory riders at Vegas.
I am really bginning to question the advantage of a larger, stronger motor in our sport. I doesn't seem based solely on lap times that the extra power is being completely used. It would be interesting to get the top 10 riders in each class to race 3 combined races, all on 250s, all on 450s and one in their designated class. Probably would give an interesting perspective of the need for more powerful bikes.
1998, was obviously a bad year for the sport, but the past two out of three years in the 450 class have turned into a survivor competition. Heck, only one rider so far has competed in every 450 event of 2012.
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With a 450 that's where I think the problem lies. The bikes are much more capable of doing things a human being cannot do consistently, unrelated to the bike. The bike will always do what you tell it to do because you are controlling it. That doesn't mean it works every time though and maybe the minor differences between a 250f and 450f are where a hazy line of consistency and "riding within ones limits" get hard to control (for someone who wants to win).
As to your last comment I agree, I think the racing gets better, closer and more aggressive with smaller bore machines where racing skill determines who wins instead of who is the last man standing.
To me all the top guys battling and dicing on 125s is way more exciting to watch compared to 450's running in a single file line.
1). Go watch any 125 and any 250 2 stroke race. They are poking around the track compared to today.
2). More momentum = more injuries. Some law somewhere in physics?
Some riders like the 350 because they feel its somewhere between the 2 and that's where they're most comfortable,the 450's more challenging characteristics are what's more to blame for the injuries I'm pretty sure
Journalists should ask some pro riders this question - I would be interested to hear their thoughts about it. I think they would laugh at the suggestion their bikes have too much power for them.
Bottom line, Motocross has always been and will always be dangerous.
He seemed pretty well convinced that the big, heavy and powerful open class thumpers were to blame for some of the carnage we've been seeing. His injury however was a simple low speed tipover where he just landed on his head at obviously the wrong angle. Fortunately for him he was able to recover quite well.
What I'm about to say is not to make an argument for making the premiere class the 125cc class - that would be ridiculous - but rather to make a point: does anyone really believe we would be seeing this much carnage in the 450 class if everyone were on lesser powered 125cc machines? Of course not, because now matter how fast the riders desired to go, they would be limited by the motorcycle, it would be easier to control, limit possibilities we see now, and slow the pace down as well as the force riders slam into the ground.
The 450's have pretty much an unlimited amount of power, so riders can pretty much go as fast as determined by the laws of physics and their bravery. A lot of top riders are echoing they are going as fast as possible, such as RV, and Kdub. Carmichael said the same in 2007, when apparently only himself and James were at that level. It even seems like the top pros even realize that you cannot push the limits 100% of the time on 450s, like riders do in the 250 class. I think this is why 450 racing is so freaking boring at times. If riders are not in the mood, in the zone, not feeling it, or get a bad start, they just race in a steady pace that is safe and maintainable. Take for example Dungey, in Arlington, Texas this year. He was getting smoked by Reed and Villopoto who were going at it until Reed's wreck. Which, if he were on a slower machine he probably would not have been able to do that triple in the first place (nobody in the 250f class was that night, including Roczen and Barcia who are great jump technicians). This trend has been going on for the past two out of three years, and if it continues, I hope to God the AMA steps in and does something, especially int he supercross class.
REACT!
You cant really blame the bike when you're the one telling the bike exactly what to do......its only going to go as fast as you make it go. Dungey doesn't seem to have a problem riding fast and in control. And like someone else said, most of the injuries haven't come from the "crazy deadly" 450 speed.....they've come from twisting knees in ruts in corners or being landed on or going down in 2nd gear. I really don't buy into the whole "450's are too fast" argument. OK, you guys can rip into me now.......
I agree 100% that a 450 in the hands of a less talented rider is dangerous, but I don't believe that it is in the hands of a top pro.
Reed. A panic rev with the 2 strokes & even 250f's has a much greater affect. If you drop the nose on a 450, there's little chance of getting it back, the added crank mass assures it. With a lower displacement he may of at least had a fighting chance.
RV. The added bike weight & crank mass may have let the front tire wash out just a little bit easier. The added weight no doubt didn't help in buckling his knee either.
There are several here that get it. When a bike with greater mass get's out of shape, the rider has a much less ability to regain control. 250 riders have mistakes just like the 450's, the difference being the 250 riders have a much better fighting chance @ getting the bike back. Personally I would much rather have 250's or maybe 350's as the premier class. Nobody would ever miss the 1/2 second per lap, carrying momentum makes for much better racing, as does the chance of having more riders stay healthy through the series.
We do not know that. It was most likely completely due to the angle his leg was at when he went down.
Knee injuries are as old as the sport.
To me it's just the intensity of the riders and a certain amount of luck. I remember back in 2002 when RC was doing his thing on Honda for the first time, everyone was riding out of their skins trying to beat him. Jeremy got hurt in pre season practice and took ages to recover throughout the early rounds. Ricky himself got hurt at the first round and eventually was followed throughout the year by DV, TP (OK Travis may not count) and ML. Of course RC dug deep and was able to retain the title.
But people are increasingly getting injured because they take more and more chances these days than what they used to. At start of this year the MX2 GP class (250fs) had a couple of top guys out with injuries and now Roelants is out after getting badly injured at Matterley. Besides Frossard, the 450 field in MX1 has remained pretty much healthy this year. You can make a similar observation with Barica last year - where he hit the ground multiple times on his 250f (apparently unable to salvage those mistakes) but then immediately calmed down and was light years better on the 450. A lot of it is just chance.
Pit Row
One issue is that jumps where a 250f can barely make it are too easy for a 450. The riders overjump and land on the flat beyond the landing ramp. The track design would be better if the feeder class and the main event bikes were closer in hp level.
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Instead, to explain the big picture - in this case really high injury rates in the sport, particularly the 450 class - you identify one, or very few, variables, or casual factors. In this case, 450s are the more powerful, and much heavier - especially considering gyroscopic force - compared to the 250f machines, and two-strokes of the past. The only variables differing between the 450 class and the 250 class are the machines, rider experience, and number events competed in each year.
If faster and heavier machines did not explain higher injury rates, and the more spine crushing severe injuries, we would expect to see the same injury rates that we are seeing today all throughout the 80's and 90's on much slower bikes of the past. Faster machines are not the sole cause of injuries, but may explain the higher injury rates we are witnessing (big difference between the two). Thus, if you cherry pick individual crashes, the explanation larger bikes result in higher injury rates may or may not explain that particular crash. There are always exceptions to the rule (e.g., someone having their life saved by not wearing a seatbelt, despite seatbelts overall drastically increasing the odds of surviving a crash). Injuries have been around since this sport begin, but the higher injuries we are seeing today may be explained by the bikes being raced today. To determine what kind of increase in injury rates are due to the machines (15% or 50%), a serious study would have to be done.
For motocross83, notice I said "didn't help". As a person who's had roughly 15 dislocations on each knee, I can say the knee can only withstand so much. The more forces you pile on, the less chance a knee has.
Yes, scraping the barrel
I think the injuries or more due to the fact that "the riders" themselves have evolved into pushing past certain limits.........which equals in a smaller margin of error.
When I was younger racing the 250 2 strokes......I still had my fair share of wrecks.....because I was pushing it.
AND......who says that if we would of stayed with the 2 stroke 250's they wouldn't be extremely fast as well? They would of evolved in speed just like the 450's......because the riders would of demanded it.
That being said, MX is a dangerous sport.
As Jeffro503 said "the 450's let a rider choose how fast he really wants to go." Strictly speaking, I don't think you can blame the bikes for allowing the riders to push the limit of what is physically possible. By twisting the throttle, they are choosing to go that fast. Also, lets not forget that rider talent and skill are still the main determinants of speed on the track.
Although I think that the four strokes have contributed to the higher race speeds seen in pro racing today, I am still not convinced the crashes and injuries this year are a direct result of the extra power and weight of the 450's.
HP approx: 38 to 55 approx a 45% increase for the 450
Weight: 222 to 238 approx a 7% increase for the 450
P/W ratio: 5.8 to 4.3 approx 34% increase for the 450
Assuming that in race machines relatively linear performance increases are available across the machines, then the percentage increase is the most notable. Clearly the 450 has significant performance increase over the 250. However, there is no direct correlation between lap times and performance increase. This kind of calls into question the assertion that the 450 performance is the cause of the injuries as the performance increase of the bike is not resulting in a linear decrease in lap times. The performance is there but is not being used in all cases to maximum advantage. Kind of like driving your Ferrari in rush hour traffic, you can go 200mph, but other factors limit this ability.
Some comments have considered the gyroscopic effect. Not being a physicist, I did some quick looking at this. What I learned is that a motorcycle has 3 primary points of inertia. The two wheels and the crank/flywheel effect. Relevant variables in this area would be in the internal engine components. However, the nonlinear variable in this case would be the rotational speed of the engine. The 450 has roughly a 7-10 percent increase in weight in these components. (very rough estimate). However this maybe offset by the higher rpm of a 250. Tire/wheel combos may have some minor increase in inertia in favor of the 450, however, I do not think the actual math would support a highly significant gyroscopic increase in the 450.
I find it hard to blame all the carnage on the bike, and like others I don't think the classes will change. Personally, I tend to think that most of the carnage is attributable to other factors including, bad luck, rider error, track conditions, etc. I respect the opinions of those with a different perspective. I simply don't see enough events to say it is the bike that is to blame. It may have some effect but probably isn't the causative factor.
In a perfect world though, I would prefer to see the classes be 125 and 250F as the premier class. No 450 class and 125s would replace the 250F class. Would make for better racing.
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