What happened to all the "trick" stuff?

TerryB
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TerryB 2/1/2010 3:30pm
2/1/2010 3:30pm
Pat327 wrote:
Honda's 1991 aluminum-framed RC250MA with their forward-kicking HFT engine.As the automatic transmission HMT for motocross racing machines required high efficiency and reduced weight, while the...
Honda's 1991 aluminum-framed RC250MA with their forward-kicking HFT engine.



As the automatic transmission HMT for motocross racing machines required high efficiency and reduced weight, while the principles were derived from the “HRD transmission”, the system configuration had evolved to a completely different, hydraulic mechanical transmission system with the pump and the motor laid on a common axis. The system was made more compact and light in weight by increasing the working pressure (normal working pressure: 44MPa, maximum working pressure 80MPa). Furthermore, the construction that prevents leakage of high pressure fluid was applied to various places in the unit, thus allowing the system to maintain the high transmission efficiency even under very high fluid pressures. One of the design features was the use of a spool-type distributor valve. Considering down-sizing of the control system and freedom of setting, the electronic control system was applied. The HMT for the motocross machine was aimed at an ideal, infinitely variable transmission that could respond discreetly to rider intentions, and accordingly it was named “HFT” (Human Fitting Transmission).

The motocross racing machine RC250MA equipped with the “HFT” won the all Japan motocross championship series in 1991, which was the second year since the debut. The “HFT” using very high pressures yet maintaining high efficiency was given intelligence through the electronic control system, and proved its potential in the real world of racing. Following the success in races, further research and development started for an application of the transmission based on “HFT” to mass-production products, and the development of HMT (hydraulic mechanical transmission) continued to the “Hondamatic” introduction in the year 2000.

Now that is fascinating!

DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/1/2010 3:59pm
2/1/2010 3:59pm
Pat327 wrote:
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.[IMG]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd261/patrickcarroll327/HRC2003CR250cc.jpg[/IMG]
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.

That frame looks a bit CRF250ish?
The Rock
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The Rock 2/1/2010 4:03pm
2/1/2010 4:03pm
Electronics is the 21st century trick stuff

R-acer
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R-acer 2/2/2010 3:39am
2/2/2010 3:39am
I really enjoy the pic's of tricked out parts, keep em coming guy B

The Shop

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miedosoracing1 2/2/2010 4:25am
2/2/2010 4:25am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:31pm
Pat327 wrote:
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.[IMG]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd261/patrickcarroll327/HRC2003CR250cc.jpg[/IMG]
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.

DrSweden wrote:
That frame looks a bit CRF250ish?
Agreed, that is no CR frame per say. I have had atleast 20 02-07 CR's and can say, I wish one of them had that frame...






Anyone saying that the production rule brought us better bikes, please explain. It seems to me, that a non production rule, would actually bring some years of really really futuristic things???? a lot of those pics show us innovation, and some show us failure. But if it has to be production, the companies are more cautious in spending a ton on a non useful objects. But I'm not completely sold on non production racing either. It goes both ways. Honda ruled the roost way back then. Every rider wanted to be on a Honda. They had the most trick stuff out, and riders would take less just to be on that team. So although I disagree with bikes being futher because of the production rule, I also agree that it can hurt some while helping other OEM's. I believe that was the true reason for the production rule. It also keeps out small competitors as well. I wish the production rule in current racing, would allow a percentage of per year sales as the number of bikes needed in the US. Companies like Maico, TM etc would only have to bring a smaller amount to the US to race in our series. JMHO
edgo897
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edgo897 2/2/2010 5:52am
2/2/2010 5:52am
kcadrenalin wrote:
Is it wrong for me to get a boner looking at those pictures?
The fishnet stocking on the shock spring does it for me.
R-acer
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R-acer 2/2/2010 5:53am
2/2/2010 5:53am
Speaking of "trick" , A few parts came in for my sons bike yesterday Woohoo


anniebertmojo
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anniebertmojo 2/2/2010 6:04am
2/2/2010 6:04am


Works Honda RC250 air-cooled
miedosoracing1 2/3/2010 5:12am
2/3/2010 5:12am
R-acer wrote:
Speaking of "trick" , A few parts came in for my sons bike yesterday :woohoo: [IMG]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/232_3277_2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/232_3280_2.jpg[/IMG]
Speaking of "trick" , A few parts came in for my sons bike yesterday Woohoo


Looks Cheap... Joking :-)
Lightning78
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Lightning78 3/6/2012 12:35am
3/6/2012 12:35am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2012 12:40am
Pat327 wrote:
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.[IMG]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd261/patrickcarroll327/HRC2003CR250cc.jpg[/IMG]
I don't remember where I got it, but here's another one I have.

DrSweden wrote:
That frame looks a bit CRF250ish?
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Agreed, that is no CR frame per say. I have had atleast 20 02-07 CR's and can say, I wish one of them had that frame...
Agreed, that is no CR frame per say. I have had atleast 20 02-07 CR's and can say, I wish one of them had that frame...






Anyone saying that the production rule brought us better bikes, please explain. It seems to me, that a non production rule, would actually bring some years of really really futuristic things???? a lot of those pics show us innovation, and some show us failure. But if it has to be production, the companies are more cautious in spending a ton on a non useful objects. But I'm not completely sold on non production racing either. It goes both ways. Honda ruled the roost way back then. Every rider wanted to be on a Honda. They had the most trick stuff out, and riders would take less just to be on that team. So although I disagree with bikes being futher because of the production rule, I also agree that it can hurt some while helping other OEM's. I believe that was the true reason for the production rule. It also keeps out small competitors as well. I wish the production rule in current racing, would allow a percentage of per year sales as the number of bikes needed in the US. Companies like Maico, TM etc would only have to bring a smaller amount to the US to race in our series. JMHO
Sorry to rehash this old thread but me and a buddy were having a debate about this bike and I brought up this thread again.....MAN I WISH Honda would release this bike!!!! And I agree with miedos.....The produdction rule HAS to subside for 5 years if we want to see some real advancement in 4 strokes and possibly DI 2 strokes, there are plenty of riders that are good testers and good riders (main quality sx/mx) that could test these bikes as well as factory top level dudes. I personally want to see some new trick 2 strokes and it would speed up the advancement curve for the "3 year advanced production rule" for thumpers and make them lighter as well.

Id be willing to bet if honda had released that version now it would be one of the best 250 2 strokes around (250 2 strokes class only could do sx against 450's too).....had an 02 and it was close but I can see how with that 250f-ish frame it wouldve been perfect and a featherweightt! I had a couple of those 250f's and they handled absolutely perfect im sure they could've developed the engine a lot more by now and made it RIP!.. or i'd have it modded by miedos and call it a day .....that bike would be badass can someone forward this onto Honda corporate to make a limited run of these and see how they sell?

I know it would take a miracle but PLEEEEASE HONDA!?!??!?!
PressPassP
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PressPassP 3/6/2012 1:22am
3/6/2012 1:22am
newmann wrote:
Aluminum frame way before aluminum frames. [img]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/zorroz/1988_YZM20500_2_750.jpg[/img]
Aluminum frame way before aluminum frames.

Sweet looking bike,which year is that? Carlas prototype water cooled 500 with the pre '82 stuff like the rad on the forks etc
[/img]
robkinuk
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robkinuk 3/6/2012 3:21am
3/6/2012 3:21am
Thank's guys for a decent thread to read on here, instead of all that Reed comment 15 page bullshit. Was it a full moon last night in internet land?
Ghost of Jabroni 3/6/2012 6:10am
3/6/2012 6:10am
Tiki wrote:
2003 RC250. Might not look like a works bike, but look closely at the frame and you'll see that it's not stock. Under the rules of...
2003 RC250. Might not look like a works bike, but look closely at the frame and you'll see that it's not stock.

Under the rules of the game, the frame has to be production. I have that image at home as a wall paper, what is not stock about it? That was the Japanese Race Bike. Pretty much identical to what they raced over here 03
The Japanese National series is a worx series. No production rule. Correct me if Im wrong.
Ghost of Jabroni 3/6/2012 6:13am
3/6/2012 6:13am
mxrose3 wrote:
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes? The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships...
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes?
The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships compared to anything else of that era. I heard that Ron Lechiens Rotary valved 83' YZ125 works bike was fast as hell too.
Great question.


I think the "problem" with rotary valve engines in general is that they are too reliable and efficient for OEM's to make profitable. The past/current business model of a manufacturer is to make money off of maintenance and the sale of OEM replacement parts. Rotary's and 2-strokes for that matter dont exactly play well with that philosophy.

It's been a business principle in the automobile mfg business since the 40's I believe.
nickm
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nickm 3/6/2012 6:43am
3/6/2012 6:43am
The folks that worked at HRC in the 80s were absolutely obsessive...its so rare to see that spare-no-expense and just make things the absolute best -cost be damned- attitude.

A bunch of crazy smart dudes + driven by obsession + financed by a huge bank account = the worlds crazyest most amazing shit.
yzvet426
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yzvet426 3/6/2012 7:09am
3/6/2012 7:09am
Mugen racer wrote:
Mugen update. I spoke to Mel today. He called and said he would e-mail some pics of him racing the bike. I'll post them up when...
Mugen update. I spoke to Mel today. He called and said he would e-mail some pics of him racing the bike. I'll post them up when I get them. I'll take pics of the bike, it's still in pieces. Locating parts is very difficult. Hey Newmann, Things are going good. The restoration is taking alot longer than I thought it would. I hope to have the bike back together by this summer. Thanks, Tony
So whatever happened to the pics? I'm thinking I met him at mid ohio one year walking around the swapmeet with my son. I remember talking to a guy that said he had all these Mugen bikes. At the time I didn't know how rare that stuff was. I was to focused on finding an LOP porky head. LOL
flomiester
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flomiester 3/6/2012 5:25pm
3/6/2012 5:25pm
mxrose3 wrote:
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes? The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships...
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes?
The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships compared to anything else of that era. I heard that Ron Lechiens Rotary valved 83' YZ125 works bike was fast as hell too.
xnationalwrench wrote:
What about the twin carb PUCH? It was both piston port and rotary valve, best of both worlds
when i was in high school i put we put a piston port cylinder on a suzuki ts 90 roatary valve engine does this qualify as a works bikewith dual carbs.
Hando
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Hando 3/6/2012 6:05pm
3/6/2012 6:05pm
nickm wrote:
The folks that worked at HRC in the 80s were absolutely obsessive...its so rare to see that spare-no-expense and just make things the absolute best -cost...
The folks that worked at HRC in the 80s were absolutely obsessive...its so rare to see that spare-no-expense and just make things the absolute best -cost be damned- attitude.

A bunch of crazy smart dudes + driven by obsession + financed by a huge bank account = the worlds crazyest most amazing shit.
From what I hear this also applied to Formula 1 in the 80s and 90s as well to some extent...tons of money to burn to make the most insanely trick stuff ever. Im sure it spilled over into MotoGP as well...

Honestly..we can thank the wide open era of the 80s for our technology today IMO






Also..to anyone who has a CR/CRF

How do you guys clean the inner spares of the frame??

Pit Row

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TX24
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TX24 3/9/2012 6:24pm
3/9/2012 6:24pm
I miss the trick minis like the 85s. No one seems to do features on like ACs bikes. Most of the oems have not been updated in the last several years and I'm sure the mod class 85s have a ton of money in them.
RbR
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RbR 3/9/2012 7:33pm
3/9/2012 7:33pm Edited Date/Time 3/9/2012 7:35pm
Pat327 wrote:
Honda's 1991 aluminum-framed RC250MA with their forward-kicking HFT engine.As the automatic transmission HMT for motocross racing machines required high efficiency and reduced weight, while the...
Honda's 1991 aluminum-framed RC250MA with their forward-kicking HFT engine.



As the automatic transmission HMT for motocross racing machines required high efficiency and reduced weight, while the principles were derived from the “HRD transmission”, the system configuration had evolved to a completely different, hydraulic mechanical transmission system with the pump and the motor laid on a common axis. The system was made more compact and light in weight by increasing the working pressure (normal working pressure: 44MPa, maximum working pressure 80MPa). Furthermore, the construction that prevents leakage of high pressure fluid was applied to various places in the unit, thus allowing the system to maintain the high transmission efficiency even under very high fluid pressures. One of the design features was the use of a spool-type distributor valve. Considering down-sizing of the control system and freedom of setting, the electronic control system was applied. The HMT for the motocross machine was aimed at an ideal, infinitely variable transmission that could respond discreetly to rider intentions, and accordingly it was named “HFT” (Human Fitting Transmission).

The motocross racing machine RC250MA equipped with the “HFT” won the all Japan motocross championship series in 1991, which was the second year since the debut. The “HFT” using very high pressures yet maintaining high efficiency was given intelligence through the electronic control system, and proved its potential in the real world of racing. Following the success in races, further research and development started for an application of the transmission based on “HFT” to mass-production products, and the development of HMT (hydraulic mechanical transmission) continued to the “Hondamatic” introduction in the year 2000.

I was racing the Japanese nationals for Honda on a 125 in 1991. 1991 was also the last year for Mugen in Motocross as they decided to focus on car racing instead. Honda had two automatics in the 250 class that year ... one was a full works bike and one was more 'production' based. The full works automatic bike won the series, while the 'production' based bike did win one round. The bike was awesome to see race and would shift based on the load felt by the motor ... the bike was always on the pipe.

Eric Geboers rode the works automatic during practice for the 1991 Tokyo Supercross, but decided not to race it. I was in the practice group with the rest of the Japanese 250 guys and got to watch Goboers take his laps while standing next to the big triple. Geboers hit the triple and did a huge endo .. he was going right over the bars and it was ugly .. the bike was nearly vertically pointing straight down at the ground. Geboers pinned the throttle and the bike went braaapbraaapbraaap while automatically up-shifting through the gears. The gyro of the rapidly accelerating rear wheel literally pulled the back of the bike down and he landed it perfectly. I think that was his last lap on the bike, but it was simply unbelievable to see and I will never forget it.
tbonefuller
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tbonefuller 3/9/2012 8:18pm
3/9/2012 8:18pm
mxrose3 wrote:
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes? The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships...
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes?
The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships compared to anything else of that era. I heard that Ron Lechiens Rotary valved 83' YZ125 works bike was fast as hell too.
xnationalwrench wrote:
What about the twin carb PUCH? It was both piston port and rotary valve, best of both worlds
what is rotary valve anyway, i never understood it... all i know is that the dogger ripped on it a the young age of 16
newmann
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newmann 3/9/2012 8:37pm
3/9/2012 8:37pm
mxrose3 wrote:
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes? The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships...
Ok, what I want to know is: Why did they do away with Rotary-valved two strokes?
The Can-am's and old KX's that I've ridden are rocketships compared to anything else of that era. I heard that Ron Lechiens Rotary valved 83' YZ125 works bike was fast as hell too.
xnationalwrench wrote:
What about the twin carb PUCH? It was both piston port and rotary valve, best of both worlds
tbonefuller wrote:
what is rotary valve anyway, i never understood it... all i know is that the dogger ripped on it a the young age of 16
The carb mounts directly the the side of the crankcase. A disc with a cutaway on it attached to the crank rotates and opens the intake port. Had Kawasaki been six months earlier with the 74 KX125, we'd be talking about them like we did 74 CR125's. Good example of the rotary valve setup and good running bikes.





tbonefuller
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tbonefuller 3/9/2012 8:43pm
3/9/2012 8:43pm
is the 1974 kx stock? and thanks for breaking it down for me
bvm111
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bvm111 3/9/2012 10:40pm
3/9/2012 10:40pm
kcadrenalin wrote:
Is it wrong for me to get a boner looking at those pictures?
ocscottie wrote:
It would be more wrong not to.
fffeeeewwwww I thought I was the only one!!!!!


Wink
Big
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Big 3/10/2012 1:29am
3/10/2012 1:29am
newmann wrote:
I sure miss the days of works bikes and trick parts. There is a lot of CNC'd bling these days but the old stuff rules. [img]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/mainline_bucket/IMG_0001.jpg[/img]
I sure miss the days of works bikes and trick parts. There is a lot of CNC'd bling these days but the old stuff rules.

I have tested this bike! Boy i was so fast! Laughing But after 2nd lap Leif Persson passed me running!? screaming:take it easy!!! If you crash they will fire me! They had a clausul they where never ever aloud to let anyone else test it. That was a no-no! Anyway It was soft and really smooth in suspension. Much softer than my own "same"Wink bike w standard frontfork w Ohlins rear actually? The hit wasn't a joke. Nothing,nothing and suddenly it exploded and revved longer on 3d gear than this Swedish naionaltrack had straights. I remember the scary sound like the pinging and expected the pistonrings out of the exhaust any second. I wasn't aloud to take a picture but got one back in my tiny skull anyway........
Sean_Fries
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Sean_Fries 6/28/2015 7:52am
6/28/2015 7:52am


tydog
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tydog 6/28/2015 7:59am
6/28/2015 7:59am
Sean_Fries wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/06/28/95988/s1200_1622267_10203164910953650_1040925091_n.jpg[/img]


KLP I assume?
Spartacus
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Spartacus 6/28/2015 8:36am
6/28/2015 8:36am Edited Date/Time 6/28/2015 9:49am
Nothing says totally trick to me like a custom stack of dampening shims.

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