Is riding a big bike (250T or 450F) making you slower?

12/4/2011 3:31pm
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the most.
Flatliner
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12/4/2011 3:58pm
Sheriff245 wrote:
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the...
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the most.
That's the hard part for me. Not sure which would put the biggest smile on my face.
nytsmaC
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12/4/2011 5:37pm Edited Date/Time 12/4/2011 5:54pm
Sheriff245 wrote:
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the...
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the most.
Flatliner wrote:
That's the hard part for me. Not sure which would put the biggest smile on my face.
That's why you can't discount a 144. I bought a new Husky 300 this year and never ride it because my 144 is hands down more fun to ride. Maybe I could turn faster laps on the 300 but I doubt it, and I'm 6'7 and 295lbs. I can clear all of the jumps at my local track with the exception of a 100+ft step-up triple that pros on 250fs come up short on. The 300 doesn't inspire me to go faster, push harder, brake later and push my abilities. The 144 does all of those things and at the end of the day I simply can't wait to ride it again. If I were racing competitively I suppose it might not be the best choice of bikes but I don't race anymore, I just ride for fun. If I were to race again I'd still ride it, there's nothing better than being the underdog and beating the 4-strokes on a bike that most people don't believe is a competitive choice.

Don't talk yourself out of a 144 until you get to ride one. A good running one will spank a stock 250F for peak HP and torque numbers and it turns like a BMX.
level
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12/4/2011 5:46pm
A 250 4 banger is one of the most fun bikes you'll ever ride. I was faster on my 250f than I was on my 250 2 stroke and had more fun riding it and could rider longer. It's a great bike if your under 190 pounds. I had mine at 200 pounds and still had fun but would of been much faster if I was lighter.

I love my 450f also but the 250f you get to actually really ride and use all the gears. A 450 your rarely get out of 3rd gear.

The Shop

Flatliner
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12/4/2011 6:35pm
Sheriff245 wrote:
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the...
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter which bike you're fastest on. What really matters is what bike do you enjoy riding the most.
Flatliner wrote:
That's the hard part for me. Not sure which would put the biggest smile on my face.
nytsmaC wrote:
That's why you can't discount a 144. I bought a new Husky 300 this year and never ride it because my 144 is hands down more...
That's why you can't discount a 144. I bought a new Husky 300 this year and never ride it because my 144 is hands down more fun to ride. Maybe I could turn faster laps on the 300 but I doubt it, and I'm 6'7 and 295lbs. I can clear all of the jumps at my local track with the exception of a 100+ft step-up triple that pros on 250fs come up short on. The 300 doesn't inspire me to go faster, push harder, brake later and push my abilities. The 144 does all of those things and at the end of the day I simply can't wait to ride it again. If I were racing competitively I suppose it might not be the best choice of bikes but I don't race anymore, I just ride for fun. If I were to race again I'd still ride it, there's nothing better than being the underdog and beating the 4-strokes on a bike that most people don't believe is a competitive choice.

Don't talk yourself out of a 144 until you get to ride one. A good running one will spank a stock 250F for peak HP and torque numbers and it turns like a BMX.
Your huge on a 144!
nytsmaC
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12/4/2011 6:39pm
Absolutely. If I can keep it on the pipe yarding my big ass around then so can you.
jmar
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12/4/2011 7:26pm
Ride what ever meets your budget, and makes you happy. Forget about all of this two vs four bull shit.
Hando
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12/4/2011 7:45pm
jmar wrote:
Ride what ever meets your budget, and makes you happy. Forget about all of this two vs four bull shit.
This discussion is more small bike vs big bike though
jmar
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12/4/2011 7:52pm
jmar wrote:
Ride what ever meets your budget, and makes you happy. Forget about all of this two vs four bull shit.
Hando wrote:
This discussion is more small bike vs big bike though
It doesn't matter. Ride what ever floats your boat.
seth505
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12/4/2011 8:31pm
I don't ever have the desire to ride/race a 450 but that said I love my 250 2stroke. It's only a handful when I'm super tired and start sliding off the back of the bike.
Deetsmx
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12/4/2011 9:27pm
Flatliner wrote:
TM makes a 300, and ktm has a bolt on 300 for the 250sx. That's already plenty of juice no? I'm personally stuck right now. I'm...
TM makes a 300, and ktm has a bolt on 300 for the 250sx. That's already plenty of juice no?

I'm personally stuck right now. I'm considering 3 bikes. The TM 144, the ktm 150sx, or 250 sx. I really enjoy ringing out the small bikes, but at 225 lbs I'm worried that I'm going to get tired of not having that power. Also finding a review of the 144 by someone who owns and maintains one has been difficult.
I don't think it's so much about plenty of juice as it is about being able to have a broad powerband. I feel like my 250 is fast enough but sometimes wish it had a lot more roll on power so I didn't have to clutch so much and could ride a higher gear through corners. I guess more 4 stroke like.
mark_swart
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12/5/2011 7:42am
I find it interesting that everyone talks about what they are faster on, especially when they say they are faster on smaller bikes. Does the stopwatch back that up or are you just going by what you hear? Lots of times on 450s or 250T you don't feel like you are going fast, but the laptimes say otherwise.
Hmm... instant power at any time and the ability to launch just about any jump with a simple twist of the throttle...I just don't see the downside of my 450 (other than maintenance).
Hando
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12/5/2011 9:15am
I think I was faster on my 250 2-stroke then my 125 but I had that bike dialed in for me...the 125 was bone stock pretty much except for pipes.

What I like about big bikes is that you can slow them down and they are more malleable in terms of power delivery whereas with a 125, when you mod it it usually just gets harder to ride if you really want it to make more power.

My RM125 was a great bike but it had zero bottom end and would bog if you werent always on it (it was a 125 llol..) I had my 250 2-stroker tuned to the point where it was easy to ride and go fast on. Essentially I "detuned it"
Stooperbike
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12/5/2011 9:29am
Rooster wrote:
One thing I've learned over the years is that it's way more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than it is to ride a fast...
One thing I've learned over the years is that it's way more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than it is to ride a fast bike slow.
x2
Suns_PSD
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12/5/2011 10:42am
Flatliner wrote:
TM makes a 300, and ktm has a bolt on 300 for the 250sx. That's already plenty of juice no? I'm personally stuck right now. I'm...
TM makes a 300, and ktm has a bolt on 300 for the 250sx. That's already plenty of juice no?

I'm personally stuck right now. I'm considering 3 bikes. The TM 144, the ktm 150sx, or 250 sx. I really enjoy ringing out the small bikes, but at 225 lbs I'm worried that I'm going to get tired of not having that power. Also finding a review of the 144 by someone who owns and maintains one has been difficult.
Hando wrote:
if you're 170 lbs+ you need a big bike

125s and 250f's are for 100-150 lb kids ...160 lbs if you're strong i guess.
Tyrell wrote:
Yup, agree with Hando. On SX 250 at moment. 250 4T was good, but slow and I never felt comfortable thrashing it (ie. no fun). 450...
Yup, agree with Hando.

On SX 250 at moment. 250 4T was good, but slow and I never felt comfortable thrashing it (ie. no fun). 450 4T felt too heavy and would not turn. 250 2T is a bit too snappy.

I'm thinking about a 300xc with MX springs for next year. Anyone tried this for MX?
The deal w/ ALL of the 300cc 2 strokes is that they are the 250 bottom ends and they just bolt a larger bore on the bike w/ no additional stroke to end up at 293cc. The problem is that w/ 2 stroke port timing, dwell, and a bunch of other crap that I don't understand, you end up w/ your top end portion of your powerband chopped off. It's a beautiful powerband for 90% of offroad riding and play riding. But for MX racing it really leaves something to be desired. A lot of guys like to claim that the 300SX would be competitive w/ a 450F in Pro Competition but in my opinion this is far from the truth. In fact, I suspect that the 250 would be better overall because of the needed hit and over-rev.

I spent a lot of time and money on my 300SX trying to push the power back up more similiar to a race bike. Dick's carb bore, SST pipe, raised port height, lower compression, etc... I was playing w/ squish the other week on my 300SX and I lost a piece of sauter (sp?) down a trasfer port and didn't realize it and munched the motor the next time out. On a good note my engine builder said that my bottom end was like brand new (well accept for the bearing that the sauter went thru) ! That is w/ 200+ hrs in race like conditions (BelRay @ 32:1 btw).

Anyways, my crank is now at Falicon getting a 5mm stroker kit. This is a mod first done on the 300s by KTMWorld and I'm just copying, 2/3 down the page: http://www.ktmworld.com/blog.aspx

This will take my displacement from a 293cc to a 314cc but more importantly it will increase the stroke in relation to the current bore. Because of this the people that I know that personally did this modification said it was the largest 21cc improvement that they ever felt, much larger than the 300 top end for instance which actually gives over 44cc of increase.

I rode a stock '12 250SX the other day and honestly I almost preferred the engine over my heavily modified 300SX engine. I'm looking to change that.
Flatliner
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12/5/2011 12:07pm
nytsmaC wrote:
Absolutely. If I can keep it on the pipe yarding my big ass around then so can you.
What kind of mods do you run to help the bike fit you better? I'm guessing stiffer springs, taller seat and risers?
cool_hand
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12/5/2011 1:44pm
I just bought a 2005 RM250 and really, really like it.

I was going to snag a 250f or 450f, but this RM deal came across and I bought it.

Having said that, my son just got a really nice YZ125, when we were at the track last weekend I tried out the 125 and hammered that screamer around the track, and it was a blast keeping my friend on a KX250f 2009 behind me for 2 or 3 laps....granted he was pushing for a pass pretty hard, I felt good about the power of the 2-Stroke.

The power delivery on the 250-2 RM is much more even, strong and fairly predictable. If and when I get a 4-stroke I guess I will get a 250f, cause I think it will be more fun to ride according to my ability.

I think everyone should have a 2 Stroke or two around for raw fun...

chl
nytsmaC
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12/5/2011 2:56pm
nytsmaC wrote:
Absolutely. If I can keep it on the pipe yarding my big ass around then so can you.
Flatliner wrote:
What kind of mods do you run to help the bike fit you better? I'm guessing stiffer springs, taller seat and risers?
With any bike in the past I've always used a tall bar, aftermarket triple clamp, tall seat and lowboy pegs. The Huskys are bigger bikes to begin with so I just switched to a Renthal RC-Hi bar and flipped the footpeg collars to put them in the lowboy position. I put on a regular height step seat, didn't need a taller one. I swapped to .54 fork springs and 6.3 shock spring, revalved both ends and it's dreamy.
Tyrell
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2/19/2012 3:05pm
Hando wrote:
if you're 170 lbs+ you need a big bike

125s and 250f's are for 100-150 lb kids ...160 lbs if you're strong i guess.
Tyrell wrote:
Yup, agree with Hando. On SX 250 at moment. 250 4T was good, but slow and I never felt comfortable thrashing it (ie. no fun). 450...
Yup, agree with Hando.

On SX 250 at moment. 250 4T was good, but slow and I never felt comfortable thrashing it (ie. no fun). 450 4T felt too heavy and would not turn. 250 2T is a bit too snappy.

I'm thinking about a 300xc with MX springs for next year. Anyone tried this for MX?
Suns_PSD wrote:
The deal w/ ALL of the 300cc 2 strokes is that they are the 250 bottom ends and they just bolt a larger bore on the...
The deal w/ ALL of the 300cc 2 strokes is that they are the 250 bottom ends and they just bolt a larger bore on the bike w/ no additional stroke to end up at 293cc. The problem is that w/ 2 stroke port timing, dwell, and a bunch of other crap that I don't understand, you end up w/ your top end portion of your powerband chopped off. It's a beautiful powerband for 90% of offroad riding and play riding. But for MX racing it really leaves something to be desired. A lot of guys like to claim that the 300SX would be competitive w/ a 450F in Pro Competition but in my opinion this is far from the truth. In fact, I suspect that the 250 would be better overall because of the needed hit and over-rev.

I spent a lot of time and money on my 300SX trying to push the power back up more similiar to a race bike. Dick's carb bore, SST pipe, raised port height, lower compression, etc... I was playing w/ squish the other week on my 300SX and I lost a piece of sauter (sp?) down a trasfer port and didn't realize it and munched the motor the next time out. On a good note my engine builder said that my bottom end was like brand new (well accept for the bearing that the sauter went thru) ! That is w/ 200+ hrs in race like conditions (BelRay @ 32:1 btw).

Anyways, my crank is now at Falicon getting a 5mm stroker kit. This is a mod first done on the 300s by KTMWorld and I'm just copying, 2/3 down the page: http://www.ktmworld.com/blog.aspx

This will take my displacement from a 293cc to a 314cc but more importantly it will increase the stroke in relation to the current bore. Because of this the people that I know that personally did this modification said it was the largest 21cc improvement that they ever felt, much larger than the 300 top end for instance which actually gives over 44cc of increase.

I rode a stock '12 250SX the other day and honestly I almost preferred the engine over my heavily modified 300SX engine. I'm looking to change that.
Thanks for the advice. 300xc , heavy flywheel, modded with pro circuit pipe, mx springs might be good for this old timer!
Slow450
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2/19/2012 4:00pm
Late twenties serial novice that's been riding on and off for almost 15 years, 195#:

125: Currently building one, haven't ridden one in 10 years, as a 140-155# teen I never felt my 2000 YZ125 or 01 RM125 were too slow with basic intake and exhaust mods at 50/50 race gas. I benefited most from suspension mods. Currently doing a CR125 build, I'll post what happens when a near 200#, near vet rides it in about a month. Too far back to judge speed.

250: Last bike was a 2005 CR250, hated it while I had it, realize now I had been away from the sport too long to remember what I should have done to properly set it up. Wish I still had it, motor was super twitch and it had a lot of handling issues, but I would gladly pay back the 2200 I sold it for maybe 2400 to have never made the transaction. It didn't help that the previous owner had let it become a total roach. I should have immediately sent suspension to competent authorities rather than frustrate myself and eventually sell. Never felt fast on this bike. However, I had a 2002 RM250 that I felt awesome on, however it was in 2002 and before I ever rode a 4 stroke.

250F: Last bike was a 2006 KX250F, again foolishly bought a roach. Previous owner had ground down the shock shaft, didn't realize how bad it was until I got the call from Pro Circuit to tell me about the suspension internals. Difference was the $900 job Pro Circuit did along with rebuilding the top-end and clutch gave me an awesome bike. Got comfortable enough on this bike to start racing after nearly a decade hiatus. Felt the fastest I have since I was a teenager doing laps, never dialed in starts though, blamed it on the bike vs rider weight issue.

450F: Current bike, 2011 KX450F, bought brand spankin new as the '12s were coming out for cheap! Absolutely hated the suspension, and crashed a lot learning to ride a 450. After about 7-8 hours got the bike set up pretty well. I am faster on this bike than I've ever been. However, there is no way that I'm cornering like I was on the 250F. I also was at the point that I could do 10 laps (at as close to race pace as I can do in practice) on the 250F, no way on the 450. I slow after about 6 and can barely hold on if I do 8 hard laps.

The point is you can't go wrong if you get any of them and set it up, especially at your weight. My favorite was a 250F overall between speed, fun factor and consistency. Good for you for getting back into the sport.
FLmxer
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Fantasy
2/19/2012 7:13pm Edited Date/Time 2/19/2012 7:15pm
I have been riding a 450 since 02", I recently rode a 2010 yz 250 and it felt like a mini bike with no power compared to my 450. I was riding a real sand track but the 250 was really fun just felt really slow to me. Nothing against the 250 2 stroke because I have won countless races here in Florida on one, I just love the power now of the 4 stroke and half the shifting and fanning of the clutch, so yes it has made me lazy on the thumper but I am old so its ok. I do have a mint 02' yz 250 with low hours in storage that i have been planning to ride again for fun.
CRFracer117
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2/19/2012 7:37pm
250F made me super lazy glad to be back on a 125 too fun, and I smile every time I pass a 450 at the local track, all skill.
JB 19
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2/19/2012 7:55pm
I never understood a bigger bike making you lazy.........there's a lot of racing between the jumps......slow guys worry about making the jumps......fast guys worry about dragging their bars.

You should pushing yourself every second regardless of the size of bike you are riding.
mxtech1
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2/20/2012 6:24am
250T are hard to beat because they are such versatile bikes. 125's are so much fun, but like you said, require alot of maintenence with top ends and clutches. If you don't do alot of racing and enjoy working on your bikes (and have the money to replace parts on time) a 125 would be a blast. If you race and don't want to be on such a tight maintenence schedule, go with the 250.

I'm in the same position as you. I'm not a tall rider and only weigh 155. I had a YZ125 for years and I loved that bike. I came across a cheap 2005 RM250 that I fixed up and I love that bike! It would be hard to go back to a 125 after adapting to the 250 power. You're right because I can't ride the 250 (or 125) to its full potential, but damn it's fun. I have to be in a little bit better shape to ride the 250 because of the weight, whereas the 125 I could muscle it around a bit more. However, when I get on my buddies 450's, I just don't like them because I feel like i'm just hanging onto the bike and not riding it because of how heavy they are.
2/20/2012 6:34am
WhKnuckle wrote:
I can go faster on my CR500AF than I can on my son's YZ125, but I haven't ridden his new YZ250 yet. IMO, a modern 250...
I can go faster on my CR500AF than I can on my son's YZ125, but I haven't ridden his new YZ250 yet. IMO, a modern 250 two stroke is probably the best balanced motocross bike ever made. I wish the big factories made a 350 two stroke, that would be better still.

I haven't ridden 450s enough to know, but I just don't like them. Maybe I don't ride them right, and they were always borrowed bikes (swapped for my 500 for a few laps) and I might have done better to ride them longer, but they feel unbalanced, top heavy, take a lot of effort to turn and unable to change lines easily. I imagine I could go fast - relatively - on one, but I'm out for fun anyway, and that's not fun to me.
mx317 wrote:
I would be in that LONG line for a modern 350 2-stroke!
Smile Wink
2/20/2012 7:35am
I think it depends largely on the track you are on. That's why a guy needs one of each.
Jay LINY
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2/20/2012 1:33pm
After moving up from many 250T's Then a KTM 380SX Then a 620 4S.I Bought a Husky 125 to play with.What a blast it is.Im not saying im faster on it....But it's way fun to ride it at it's max all day long and not be hurt at the end of the day.
YZ125H1
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2/20/2012 1:37pm
Im thinking about moving up to 250T i love my 125 but some more low end would make it so much better. A 144 kit for my YZ would be nice but it seems rather pricey.

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