KTM missed the boat

RaceFace
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RaceFace 12/21/2011 5:02am
12/21/2011 5:02am
michiganmafia wrote:
Have any of you road a 350? Do any of you race? I have been racing for 30 years and I am a vet rider who...
Have any of you road a 350? Do any of you race? I have been racing for 30 years and I am a vet rider who absolutely loves his KTM 350SXF and will never ever ride a 450 again. Over my years i have ridden and raced every bike. Ive raced hundreds of motocross races all over the country, gotten top 5 at amature nationals and even rode some pro stuff for a few years! The weight your read about is ridiculous, the bike handles like it weighs 20lbs less than a 450. One thing I will say, if you are over 200lbs, fat & lazy stay on your 450 and crawl through the corners and pin it down the straights or better yet just take your bike to the dragstrip! LOL
I think for what it is it is a good bike for a lot of people. I don't think missing the boat means it is a terrible bike. The point is that this bike was supposed to be better than a 450, even for top Pros. It was intended to come out and put the 450s in its wake, even at the Nationals and the other manufacturers were going to need to come out with their own 350s to keep up with KTM. You are happy with the 350 and that is a good thing, really all that matters to you. KTM wanted this thing to smoke everyone though and that wasn't going to happen even with Dungey on board.
burn1986
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burn1986 12/21/2011 5:53am
12/21/2011 5:53am Edited Date/Time 12/21/2011 5:55am
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
I find it funny that the 350 produces around 47hp stock and they decide to run that bike in the pro ranks over their 250 two...
I find it funny that the 350 produces around 47hp stock and they decide to run that bike in the pro ranks over their 250 two stroke which is almost 18 pounds lighter and produces 50hp stock. That to me makes no sense at all.
It's funny how this was somewhat ignored. As well as the mention the 300. Blind leading the blind.

KTM has missed the boat, yes, but by not racing a factory 250sx in SX. The publicity and coolness would sell more of these than any 350 project, even if the 350 was as light as a 250F.
davis224
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davis224 12/21/2011 6:19am
12/21/2011 6:19am
x2 on the CRF450 feeling light. Feels a lot more like a 250 2 stroke than a 450. Absolutely love mine.
newmann
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newmann 12/21/2011 6:20am
12/21/2011 6:20am
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?

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Factoryphoto
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Factoryphoto 12/21/2011 6:27am
12/21/2011 6:27am
The 350 is geared wrong from the factory. Once you gear it, put a $20 dollar map switch under the seat set to "aggressive" and get the susp done its a GREAT bike. For my size and weight and bike (350) im around 18hp down than most people and I ride the 350 faster than I ever rode a 450. They rev to the moon and you can easily compete or beat 450's. I laugh at people that dont even own one but they still have a negative opinion on them. Riding a "friends" bike once or twice does not give you a solid opinion on the bike you need to own it, set it up the way you want it and have fun. At the top 10 level in the pro's I agree it's not the best bike but it can and has won still . If your a lugger than get a 450 plain and simple, the 350 is like a 250 two stroke you ride it similar and it rips. Everyone that rides my bike is pretty shocked with it. They are great bikes and ill never get another 450 again the 350 is way too much fun to ride,more manageable when your riding wfo and not as "boring" as a 450. I dont like to lug around I had to buy every 2010 450 made plus a couple 11 450's until I finally rode a 350 and was shocked by it. Sold my 11 450's and never looked back. Funnest and most confidence inspiring bike ive owned in 25 years.
Predator
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Predator 12/21/2011 6:27am
12/21/2011 6:27am
RaceFace wrote:
I think for what it is it is a good bike for a lot of people. I don't think missing the boat means it is a...
I think for what it is it is a good bike for a lot of people. I don't think missing the boat means it is a terrible bike. The point is that this bike was supposed to be better than a 450, even for top Pros. It was intended to come out and put the 450s in its wake, even at the Nationals and the other manufacturers were going to need to come out with their own 350s to keep up with KTM. You are happy with the 350 and that is a good thing, really all that matters to you. KTM wanted this thing to smoke everyone though and that wasn't going to happen even with Dungey on board.
Your right... and that was the goal but you have to remember how young that bike is. The 350 has what... roughly 3 years of R&D while the current 450's have roughly 15 years of R&D??? I am not that big of a fan of that bike (just yet) but I believe if they commit to and continue to R&D on it that bike will turn into the bike they invisioned it to be.
burn1986
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burn1986 12/21/2011 6:32am
12/21/2011 6:32am
I think the 350 was a good idea by KTM, and I wish the other manufacturers would have followed suit. It just needs to be LIGHTER.
mark_swart
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mark_swart 12/21/2011 7:05am
12/21/2011 7:05am
I don't see the massive appeal of the 350 for vets. I'm a vet and why would I want to be down on horsepower on the start if everyone else is on a 450? I've had CRF, RMZ and YZF 450s and after growing up on two strokes, the big 450s seem very easy to ride. But I also love working with the torque instead of trying to rev it out (on my RMZ there is no other option.)
I think the luster of the 350 was tarnished when the weight and the powerband were unveiled. A 250 weight bike with a miniature 450 powerband would be nice, this sounds like the opposite.
Don't get me wrong, I'd still love to spin a few laps on one and it sounds like the '12 is a much better performer with just some minor tweaks.
And I think it will be really cool if Roczen and Musqin run it at a few opposite coast SX rounds, as has been rumored.
burn1986
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burn1986 12/21/2011 8:05am
12/21/2011 8:05am
Good points, plus I'm sure the factory can make their bikes quite a bit lighter.
Huckster
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Huckster 12/21/2011 8:28am
12/21/2011 8:28am
like somone else said, until you ride one you have no idea about how light this bike feels. I dont care what the scales say, it feels 20lbs lighter than any 450 that I have ever rode and I have owned every color. It has plenty of power but for me, I would like more of it to under 7k rpms.....
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 12/21/2011 8:33am
12/21/2011 8:33am
Hando wrote:
I don't get what the big deal is about 450's

it's not that hard to make them slow, is it?
True. Making them quiet might accomplish that.
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Flatliner 12/21/2011 8:41am
12/21/2011 8:41am
burn1986 wrote:
I think the 350 was a good idea by KTM, and I wish the other manufacturers would have followed suit. It just needs to be LIGHTER.
It will. Bet they shed a few pounds for the 2013.
RbR
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RbR 12/21/2011 8:48am
12/21/2011 8:48am
I switched from an RMZ450 to the KTM 350 last year. The high revving motor took a bit of getting used to and the stock suspension was way under-sprung. Spent $850 at LL having Factory Connection redo everything. The FC suspension was a bit harsh at first, but broke in nicely. To me, the 350 feels like a highly refined 250 two stroke -- light and high revving, but with a smoother and broader power band. With the FC suspension the bike is the best handling bike I've ever ridden -- very light feeling, but stable and without the twitchiness of a 250 two stroke.

The bike is an absolute blast to ride and, for me, has put the fun back in riding again. Getting old is a bitch, but getting worn out after two fast laps and then trying survive the rest of the moto was getting old for me -- and really pretty dangerous too because running up front in the A classes means doing all the jumps and other obstacles every lap even when you can hardly hang on. On the 350 I can push from the gate drop to the checkers. It’s just fun.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/21/2011 9:01am
12/21/2011 9:01am
newmann wrote:
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any...
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?
235+ in it's present form ("2012.5-2013 SX-F")...if ya get the SXS forks you can loose a lil' weight...SXS Shock...add a lil' weight...very lil'.

Ti Axles, Fasteners, Pegs...etc. = around 220-225 by the time you're done adding all the stuff the individual riders like to run. Remember, they add Glides, Heavier levers, Bars (usually..think Twin Wall v. Fat Bar), Bigger Rear Sprkt, hell...even heavier Tires, Tubes-Muses (v. stock).

As far as Homologating: The XC/EXC variants ARE homologated (Hint).

The bottom-line: The "New" KTM should be, hands doen, the Best "Outta the Box 450 for the Common-Man...

Regina Chain, Big Bars (All the Renthal Goodies, Top Shelf Levers, Galfer Brakes...all the Details, etc. versus the crap we ALWAYS throw out on the Big 4 bikes.

Jus' sayin'...
Huckster
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Huckster 12/21/2011 10:20am
12/21/2011 10:20am
You can drop 3 pounds by changing the battery. Or you could just forgo the daily snickers, beer and 1/4 pounders and lose a few pounds. Serioulsy, the bike feels way lighter when riding it. It is hard to believe until you actually spin a few laps on it. I agree with RbR and can't wait to be able to ride again this spring. May drop a 400 kit in there just for kicks and giggles though.....
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sdfog1 12/21/2011 11:18am
12/21/2011 11:18am
We just purchased a 2012 350 SX-F. I raced a 250 XC two stroke all this year and won a championship on it, so this is a big change for me. It's going to be my first four stroke as a primary bike. There are things that are pretty simply done in order to drop weight. Things like an aftermarket battery, a titanium exhaust, an SXS seat, and TuBliss tires together drop quite a bit of weight. I'm going to try to weigh the stock parts in comparison with aftermarket ones as we change them out. As mentioned before, the bike feels much lighter in comparison to what the scale shows when on the track.
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Faceaz 12/21/2011 11:41am
12/21/2011 11:41am
newmann wrote:
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any...
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?
TeamGreen wrote:
235+ in it's present form ("2012.5-2013 SX-F")...if ya get the SXS forks you can loose a lil' weight...SXS Shock...add a lil' weight...very lil'. Ti Axles, Fasteners...
235+ in it's present form ("2012.5-2013 SX-F")...if ya get the SXS forks you can loose a lil' weight...SXS Shock...add a lil' weight...very lil'.

Ti Axles, Fasteners, Pegs...etc. = around 220-225 by the time you're done adding all the stuff the individual riders like to run. Remember, they add Glides, Heavier levers, Bars (usually..think Twin Wall v. Fat Bar), Bigger Rear Sprkt, hell...even heavier Tires, Tubes-Muses (v. stock).

As far as Homologating: The XC/EXC variants ARE homologated (Hint).

The bottom-line: The "New" KTM should be, hands doen, the Best "Outta the Box 450 for the Common-Man...

Regina Chain, Big Bars (All the Renthal Goodies, Top Shelf Levers, Galfer Brakes...all the Details, etc. versus the crap we ALWAYS throw out on the Big 4 bikes.

Jus' sayin'...
They've already said, it's going to be called a Factory Edition. So, it may come with some pretty high-end lightweight parts on the floor & will probably have a pretty steep price tag. It's not a 2012.5 or 2013, so there will be 2 450sx models available.

Homolagation calls for a stock frame (engine aside), they need the numbers. We covered it a couple weeks ago, I think it's approx. 400 units by March 1st.

I agree, I think it will be the best bike off the showroom floor & it will have a price to go with it. It will be interesting to see how much of it makes it to the 2013 model - I bet the engine & frame with some of their more standard hardware.

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burn1986
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burn1986 12/21/2011 12:24pm
12/21/2011 12:24pm
" . . . 400 units by March 1st."

Is that 400 units sold, or 400 units available for sale?
kongols
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kongols 12/21/2011 12:29pm
12/21/2011 12:29pm Edited Date/Time 12/21/2011 12:30pm
burn1986 wrote:
" . . . 400 units by March 1st."

Is that 400 units sold, or 400 units available for sale?
In the warehouses in America, available for sale.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/21/2011 12:39pm
12/21/2011 12:39pm
newmann wrote:
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any...
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?
TeamGreen wrote:
235+ in it's present form ("2012.5-2013 SX-F")...if ya get the SXS forks you can loose a lil' weight...SXS Shock...add a lil' weight...very lil'. Ti Axles, Fasteners...
235+ in it's present form ("2012.5-2013 SX-F")...if ya get the SXS forks you can loose a lil' weight...SXS Shock...add a lil' weight...very lil'.

Ti Axles, Fasteners, Pegs...etc. = around 220-225 by the time you're done adding all the stuff the individual riders like to run. Remember, they add Glides, Heavier levers, Bars (usually..think Twin Wall v. Fat Bar), Bigger Rear Sprkt, hell...even heavier Tires, Tubes-Muses (v. stock).

As far as Homologating: The XC/EXC variants ARE homologated (Hint).

The bottom-line: The "New" KTM should be, hands doen, the Best "Outta the Box 450 for the Common-Man...

Regina Chain, Big Bars (All the Renthal Goodies, Top Shelf Levers, Galfer Brakes...all the Details, etc. versus the crap we ALWAYS throw out on the Big 4 bikes.

Jus' sayin'...
Faceaz wrote:
They've already said, it's going to be called a Factory Edition. So, it may come with some pretty high-end lightweight parts on the floor & will...
They've already said, it's going to be called a Factory Edition. So, it may come with some pretty high-end lightweight parts on the floor & will probably have a pretty steep price tag. It's not a 2012.5 or 2013, so there will be 2 450sx models available.

Homolagation calls for a stock frame (engine aside), they need the numbers. We covered it a couple weeks ago, I think it's approx. 400 units by March 1st.

I agree, I think it will be the best bike off the showroom floor & it will have a price to go with it. It will be interesting to see how much of it makes it to the 2013 model - I bet the engine & frame with some of their more standard hardware.
"Race or Factory Edition"...for those in the Off-Road community this approach by KTM isn't new. especially if you've leased or bought one of their ISDE bikes; however, the idea that you're gonna get the "Detailed" factory hardware is kinda a nice dream...but...ain't gonna happen.

I am by NO MEANS tryin' to piss on the parade or argue against what others have stated...I jus' do the "Light Weight" thing for a living and am a bit aware of what these "Details" cost & the means by which the Homolo-Rules are met...in the end...they'll have 2 '12s as you stated; but, jus' like Zooks of the past...One of them end's up being a '12.5 or the like.

I'll bet that the new 450 is as heavy/heavier than the big 4 and that's for a very good reason...and...as Roger states...

The Button is worth the Weight Penalty.

If Roger's "Proud" of this thing, It's gonna be good. Real good.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/21/2011 12:40pm
12/21/2011 12:40pm
Btw, a Factory Edition SHOULD come with the SXS Suspension stuff...which is PRETTY DAMN TRICK!
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user760a 12/21/2011 1:09pm
12/21/2011 1:09pm
The power is not bad. They missed the boat when they put electric start on it and made it a fat pig. WHY is there electric start on all the SX four strokes? That is idiotic. If a person cannot kickstart his or her bike, there is very little chance he or she should be buying an sx model in the first place. save that fluffy dead weight crap for the XCW bikes
burn1986
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burn1986 12/21/2011 1:18pm
12/21/2011 1:18pm Edited Date/Time 12/21/2011 1:19pm
burn1986 wrote:
" . . . 400 units by March 1st."

Is that 400 units sold, or 400 units available for sale?
kongols wrote:
In the warehouses in America, available for sale.
The need to drop the number of units to somewhere around 200. Of course, as all things with the AMA, this will never happen unless Honda gives the okay.
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Nerd 12/21/2011 1:21pm
12/21/2011 1:21pm
newmann wrote:
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any...
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?
Maybe there's a homo rule where you race, but in the AMA there isn't.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/21/2011 1:26pm
12/21/2011 1:26pm
newmann wrote:
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any...
Will be interesting to see exactly what the homo rule brings to the dealers in the form of the new 450. What will it weigh? Any guesses? Will it be less than the Honda while retaining e-start?
Nerd wrote:
Maybe there's a homo rule where you race, but in the AMA there isn't.
Is that the rule where your riding gear Jus' Has to match your bike?
CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 12/21/2011 1:29pm
12/21/2011 1:29pm
whoever said their 450 feels as light as a 250 smoker is, well, smokin' something
michiganmafia 12/21/2011 1:30pm
12/21/2011 1:30pm
I believe they will produce 104 units, just like for amateure racing. I also believe the bike will be a production model based on the RD bike, meaning no trick stuff. It will be new black frame, new plastic, new motor & suspension settings. I would guess $500-$800 more then current bike. Just my guess!
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TeamGreen 12/21/2011 1:32pm
12/21/2011 1:32pm
CR250Rider wrote:
whoever said their 450 feels as light as a 250 smoker is, well, smokin' something
Well, the there is no pleasing you?!

(From Gold-Member)
Nerd
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Nerd 12/21/2011 1:34pm
12/21/2011 1:34pm
CR250Rider wrote:
whoever said their 450 feels as light as a 250 smoker is, well, smokin' something
I said my 450 corners as well, if not better. I didn't say it felt as light. But it doesn't have to.

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