In a few years, most MX tracks will have...

-eagle-
Posts
1610
Joined
5/9/2008
Location
ZW
11/29/2011 6:27am
I hope East Florida is right, it will no doubt be second owner 2 strokes though.
Buying a new 2 stroke is like buying any other niche' product anymore.

I get tired of hearing people talk about what a "great deed" KTM and Yamaha are doing.
In my area they are running supply & demand right up the shops and customers brown eye.

The local KTM shop: Has to buy a bulk of 4 stroke off road bikes just to get a few smokers. The smokers are sold before they are uncrated and the shop eats floor costs on the thumpers because they sit all year.
No chance of getting more smokers till the next year or until the floor bikes are taken care of. Once again in limited quantities and having to buy valve munchers to get a few.

Local Yami shop: Is lucky to get 1 125 & 250 each year. For 800-1K more I can get the 450 all day.
Meanwhile the yz 250 production gets slashed, price gets upped and it has not had a legit update since 2006.
Funny how a 2012 450 is light years ahead in development/R&D hours and cost to build.
Yet is only 4-5 payments more than a bike that has set on the shelf for 6 years with 0 overhead invested.
How many people would walk into a shop and pick a new 06 yz450 over the 12 for less than a grand difference?

Yet people sit around and praise this; unreal.
jndmx
Posts
9691
Joined
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Location
South Kingston, RI, USA
11/29/2011 6:29am
pete24 wrote:
Don, i think that yz125 should have been completely warenteed by the guy that sold it to you, o ya dont push your luck with that...
Don, i think that yz125 should have been completely warenteed by the guy that sold it to you, o ya dont push your luck with that rmz just be thankful thats its lasted this long
Hey don't complain that YZ made a bunch of your boat payments.
Beleive me I typed that part about the rmz quietly......lol.
Steve47
Posts
274
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Springs, FL, USA
11/29/2011 6:42am
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than any 2 strokes I ever owned!

- No premix cost.
- I run Shell Rotalla now which is super cheap and keeps my engine perfect.
- No need to change pistons evey other months unlike the 2 strokes that was loosing power that soon.
- The 2 strokes feel like an old rattling piece of junk after a year where the 4 strokes still feel and pull like new after 2 years.
- How the hell do you justify buying a new "8 years old" YZ250 for almost the same price as a 4 stroke?

Anyway, raced both for years, I'll keep my 4 strokes as far as cost is concerned thank you very much...

Flame on.
Hando
Posts
1571
Joined
11/13/2011
Location
USA
11/29/2011 6:45am
Steve47 wrote:
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than...
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than any 2 strokes I ever owned!

- No premix cost.
- I run Shell Rotalla now which is super cheap and keeps my engine perfect.
- No need to change pistons evey other months unlike the 2 strokes that was loosing power that soon.
- The 2 strokes feel like an old rattling piece of junk after a year where the 4 strokes still feel and pull like new after 2 years.
- How the hell do you justify buying a new "8 years old" YZ250 for almost the same price as a 4 stroke?

Anyway, raced both for years, I'll keep my 4 strokes as far as cost is concerned thank you very much...

Flame on.
Cool story, bro.

You must have a good job. When you're earning what the majority of this country is earning, I think you'd be singing a different tune.

The Shop

VOODOO27
Posts
393
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
11/29/2011 6:46am
Actually, you are off. The American market has seen declining bike sales, but the ROW is growing. Declining sales doesn't mean the industry is shrinking, it...
Actually, you are off. The American market has seen declining bike sales, but the ROW is growing. Declining sales doesn't mean the industry is shrinking, it just means that we have 9% unemployment and tight credit. Both equate to lower bikes sales, not a shrinking market. Big difference, but thanks for playing. Once credit loosens up again (and it will in due time) and lower employment, along with consumer confidence picking up, things will be back.

But, when I see gear that costs $265 for a set, this suggets they are able to get these prices...Just like $9K bikes. If there were no buyers, the market wouldn't support these price points. Fundamental stuff, son.
Orange, You must be from a diffent school than I or most financial groups. For you to believe the market is not shrinking is akin to...
Orange,

You must be from a diffent school than I or most financial groups. For you to believe the market is not shrinking is akin to placing your head in the sand.

Where does an OEM plan to gain market share in a market that has declined by over 50%?

Market is the total sales of a given product. What was the number of untis sold in 1980 vs 2011?

If the number of units sold is less then you have a shrinking market which should not be compared to market share.

Market share illustrates units sold vs the total number of units. Thus, who is gaining in market share in a shrinking market? The answer is KTM. They will continue to capitalize on this shrinking market by producing products that gains share. The Asian OEMs are not doing this.
LOL. Show me marketshare numbers then we can talk. The American market is not indicative of emerging markets oh wise one. In fact, just to show...
LOL.

Show me marketshare numbers then we can talk. The American market is not indicative of emerging markets oh wise one. In fact, just to show you how off-balance you are, if your company was smart enough to understand basic economics, they'd figure out that America isn't the best place to be placing their bets in the shorterm, and would have adjusted their product mix to support selling in growth markets. Yes my friend, growth markets. I've seen the data mind you, so I'm basing my comments on facts, not rhetoric.

What you have failed miserably to comprehend, using your one-dimension train of thought, is there ARE growth plays outside the US and this is why KTM is now primarily owned by an Indian company - so they can meet the growth in EMEA. America will lag until credit loosens again. Are you gonna tell me that automotive companies should stop selling cars and replace their product mix with mopeds next? BTW: We are in an economic trough. Look it up. What does this tell you? Demand for luxury items will still exist I hate to break it to you, but to tell me that America is in a decline, tells me nothing about the key drivers. So if I were a betting man, I should be putting all my money into 2 stroke technology? LOL. And total sales for KTM, while they have seen increased sales, is still very small looking at the TAM. Geez dude.

Lastly, speaking of price elasticity of demand, less units are sold as price goes up and the inverse is also true. But to add credibility to the story, unemployment in the early 80's was averaging roughly 7%, then rose a few years later. We are at 9+ and a kid can't get a loan to finance a bike for anything. So that means we should all buy 2 strokes?

One last thought for your pipe tonight. Had credit not been so crimped, there would be more bikes sold as most don't have cash to buy them - regardless if it's 1980 or 2011. Credit makes markets work. Free the lending standards, and watch the YoY growth story play out. If you really think the market for bikes is eroding, it's not due to demand, rather, tight credit. Much different perspective than your doom story that you want to believe. You clearly don't understand global markets.
Looks like someone is coming on strong as November winds down, for VITALMX's Condescending Prick of the Month award.

Great way to get someone to hear your message.
Steve47
Posts
274
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Springs, FL, USA
11/29/2011 6:53am
Steve47 wrote:
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than...
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than any 2 strokes I ever owned!

- No premix cost.
- I run Shell Rotalla now which is super cheap and keeps my engine perfect.
- No need to change pistons evey other months unlike the 2 strokes that was loosing power that soon.
- The 2 strokes feel like an old rattling piece of junk after a year where the 4 strokes still feel and pull like new after 2 years.
- How the hell do you justify buying a new "8 years old" YZ250 for almost the same price as a 4 stroke?

Anyway, raced both for years, I'll keep my 4 strokes as far as cost is concerned thank you very much...

Flame on.
Hando wrote:
Cool story, bro. You must have a good job. When you're earning what the majority of this country is earning, I think you'd be singing a...
Cool story, bro.

You must have a good job. When you're earning what the majority of this country is earning, I think you'd be singing a different tune.
What part of "It's costing me less" do you not understand?
CRFracer117
Posts
541
Joined
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Location
Beaumont, TX, USA
11/29/2011 7:03am Edited Date/Time 11/29/2011 7:06am
jndmx wrote:
2012 KTM 150 sx - msrp $6499.00 2012 KTM 250sx - msrp $6899.00 2012 Yamaha YZ 250 - msrp $7150.00 2012 Yamaha YZ 250F - msrp...
2012 KTM 150 sx - msrp $6499.00

2012 KTM 250sx - msrp $6899.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250 - msrp $7150.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250F - msrp $7290.00

2012 Suzuki RMZ 250 - msrp $7399.00

New bikes aren't cheap.....2 stroke or 4 stroke .....period.

Before you guys all jump on the "those 4 stroke pigs cost a fortune to maintain" crap let me say this.
My son has ridden a 2007 RMZ 250F for the last 2 years, we have spent maybe $800-900 on maintenance including clutch replacement, tires and valve adjustment.

The 2007 YZ 125 he rode for one year before......almost $1900....that bike blew up if the wind was to strong.
He DNF'd more motos on that YZ in one year than the previous 4 years of racing.

My point is some bikes run great and some are dogs....no matter if they are 2 or 4 stroke.

As to original point of this thread;
All the used 2 strokes in the world circulating the tracks of the world make no difference to the marketing of new bikes.
pete24 wrote:
Don, i think that yz125 should have been completely warenteed by the guy that sold it to you, o ya dont push your luck with that...
Don, i think that yz125 should have been completely warenteed by the guy that sold it to you, o ya dont push your luck with that rmz just be thankful thats its lasted this long
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season. I've scattered my fare share of bikes 2 smoke and 4 banger old and new. I have buddy's that have new shiny 250F's and they run and last forever now the tires may never leave the ground. But any way you slice it when that 4 banger goes south she'll leave your wallet empty with no lube.

You left out;
2012 YZ 125 $6,290.00
Not that I would pay that for a 12 year bike, but hey how 250F's has Yamaha sold with there 13 year old motor in them?
motoplook
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362
Joined
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Location
KZ
11/29/2011 7:09am
...older 125 & 250 2 strokes. The decline of the industry as a whole reflects the shrinking market. Yes, there will be the wealthy few buying...
...older 125 & 250 2 strokes. The decline of the industry as a whole reflects the shrinking market.

Yes, there will be the wealthy few buying new 4 strokes and they will win races.

But the roots of the sport will be the weekend guys racing and rebuilding their 2 strokes.

The industry is too short sighted to be proactive in responding to this consumer shift.

We'll go back to relatively inexpensive racing while the few race the latest 4 strokes with fuel injection and traction control.

But the guys having the most fun will be those who picked up an old 2 stroke that they can ride for a fraction of the cost.

A few of those brave soles will choose to race while the majority will choose to "practice" or ride on private land.

My industry is reacting to a shrinking market and is providing products to maintain market share. From a MX perspective, it seems only KTM is willing to support the direction of the sport for the masses rather than only top level pro support.

4 strokes will be for the wealthy while used 2 strokes will support the weekend warriors either on the track or on private land.
MX Culture wrote:
^^^^and this is why KTM is gaining market share, because they are paying attention and listening to the consumers. As they start selling more and more...
^^^^and this is why KTM is gaining market share, because they are paying attention and listening to the consumers.
As they start selling more and more 2 strokes, the other oems and promoters will be following too.
KTM's 250SX retails at $7K before taxes, the 125SX is at $6.2K, the 150 at $6.3K. I don't see where you say that KTM has understood and 2-strokes are not expensive. $7K for a 250 2-strokes is pretty expensive. I don't understand where does the idea that they are "that much cheaper" comes from.

Also, in amateur race mode, every how often are you changing pistons/gaskets on a 2-storkes? reeds? pipes? Maintenance is easier but it ain't cheaper. You don't change top end as much on a 450 4-stroke, unless you are racing AMA Pro or going to LL, which we know is not in the future for 99% of the people on this forum, you included.

Buying a stupid used 2-strokes like others said on this thread, let me laugh out loud because your $1,500 - or even $2,500 - 2-strokes will cost you at least $1,500 before you can be competitively racing B class in your area. And, with a 2-strokes, you never know what the guy has really done with it before and you will surely have a flywheel or/and cranks and/or top end change in the very near future. In the end, you will be very close to $5K with a 5 or 6 year-old used bike, all paid cash, when you could have financed a problem-less 250F or 450F.

Overall there is no drastic difference. Except, of course, for the weekend warriors that only ride practice or just woods, once or twice a month, like most on here.

As far as business and OEM strategies and what the consumer want, you above all should know, if we are where we are today with the 4-strokes, it's because we the consumers made it happen, our demand made the OEM concentrate on the 4-strokes and we embraced it.
Oh, so now we changed our mind (because we're getting old and fat) and decided we don't like blondes, we prefer brunettes? fine, but let' not blame it on others, let's be adult a bit and accept accountablility.

Now I'm older and fat, so I will probably look at a 2-strokes to go trot around the parks on weekend, but if my boys go racing, then there's nothing better, easier to ride, with the best power/weight ration and gnar than those amazing 250F, 350F or the mighty 450F, the Formula 1 of MX race bikes!
11/29/2011 7:10am
I have a 2005 RMZ 450 that i have replaced the pistion and cylinder once since new still on stock crank. The job was hard but anybody can read a service manual. they are not that expensive to maintain as long as you are doing the work. i use this bike now as a loner(got tired of the 4 speed) and i am now on a 2009 yz450. But i will say i do want a 2008 yz250 that i have been eye ballen on Craig list just so i can return to my roots so to speak. Smile
Mspicer
Posts
52
Joined
3/20/2010
Location
South Bend, IN, USA
11/29/2011 7:11am Edited Date/Time 11/29/2011 7:16am
Big Daddy - thanks for the link... Orange..... for you 2009 - 2010 Motorcycle Sales Totals 2009 Totals 2010 Totals Unit Change % Change Dual Sport...
Big Daddy - thanks for the link...

Orange..... for you

2009 - 2010 Motorcycle Sales Totals
2009 Totals 2010 Totals Unit Change % Change
Dual Sport 27,210 23,531 -3,679 -13.5%
Off Road 105,524 80,962 -24,562 -23.3%

2008 - 2009 Motorcycle Sales Totals
2008 Totals 2009 Totals Unit Change % Change
Dual Sport 45,250 27,210 -18,993 -39.9%
Off Road 146,779 105,524 -41,676 -28.1%

The credit crunch supports my position. Who can afford a 9-10K bike? I'm guess you can but the can'ts out number the cans...
2011 U.S. Motorcycle Sales - January to September 2011 (3 Quarters)

Dual Sport

22.821 Units (2010: 19,969). Down 2,852 (-14%)

Off Road

51,057 Units (2010: 60,256). Down 9,199 (-15%)

Street Bikes

269,386 Units (2010: 265,095). Up 4,291 (+1.6%)

Scooter

24,474 Units (2010: 23,432). Up 4,042 (+17%)

Total 367,738 Units (2010: 368,752) Down 1,014 (-1.0%)


The more recent data suggest that banks are financing everything but dirtbikes and dualsport. Streetbikes are up 1.6% and scooters are up 17% Might have more to do with gas prices and not a credit crunch.
jndmx
Posts
9691
Joined
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Location
South Kingston, RI, USA
11/29/2011 8:04am
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season. I've scattered my fare share of bikes 2 smoke and 4 banger old and new...
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season. I've scattered my fare share of bikes 2 smoke and 4 banger old and new. I have buddy's that have new shiny 250F's and they run and last forever now the tires may never leave the ground. But any way you slice it when that 4 banger goes south she'll leave your wallet empty with no lube.

You left out;
2012 YZ 125 $6,290.00
Not that I would pay that for a 12 year bike, but hey how 250F's has Yamaha sold with there 13 year old motor in them?
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season

C class actually......lol.

And that would describe roughly 60-70% of the motorcycle buying public I would estimate.
Unless you are riding hard and pulling a Barcia with the rev limiter over every jump those bikes are fine.
-eagle-
Posts
1610
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Location
ZW
11/29/2011 8:12am
Steve47 wrote:
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than...
I don't really get this "more affordable" shit from the 2 strokes people. I've had 3 KX450F since 2006 and they've been cheaper to maintain than any 2 strokes I ever owned!

- No premix cost.
- I run Shell Rotalla now which is super cheap and keeps my engine perfect.
- No need to change pistons evey other months unlike the 2 strokes that was loosing power that soon.
- The 2 strokes feel like an old rattling piece of junk after a year where the 4 strokes still feel and pull like new after 2 years.
- How the hell do you justify buying a new "8 years old" YZ250 for almost the same price as a 4 stroke?

Anyway, raced both for years, I'll keep my 4 strokes as far as cost is concerned thank you very much...

Flame on.
I'm a two stroke guy but will agree with this 100%. As long as we're talking 450's.

You're last point is exactly what I was saying in my first post.
After a season of top ends and clutches its going to be close.

What do you guys think a fair price is for the current yz 250 being sold?
OldTiddler
Posts
630
Joined
4/16/2007
Location
Longwood, FL, USA
11/29/2011 8:32am
The tracks I ride already have decent mix of 2 and 4 strokes, it seems like more variety than there was a few years ago, when novices with spanking new 450s were as common as HELOCs.

For myself, it's always been easier to find a lightly trailridden 125 for under $2k than plop down two or three times that for a bigger bike that I wouldn't be any faster on. Like any bike, Steve47, on a 2 stroke ya gotta change bearings and rod every now and then to keep her from rattlin'.... Wink
11/29/2011 9:53am
I don't really want to enter this pissing match again, but I'd put another factor out there that makes it hard: places to ride. There's really but one or two (legal) places to ride in New Jersey: Englishtown and Atco, two race tracks. That's fine for me, but how can I bring my friends and show them the sport I love? The tracks are fun but gnarly - there is no place for a beginner, no place for trail riding. The jumps are big and people now routinely die. That might be OK for many of us here on Vital, but most normal people think we're nucking futs. And we might be. But, I think it's clear that if you don't have places to ride, that there will be less growth in the sport.
Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX, USA
11/29/2011 9:59am
This has nothing to do w/ bike pricing and everything to do with the declining middle class in America.

Those of us that are still doing well feel that things are perfectly in line and in fact they are. Bike prices have risen right along w/ my income, housing, fuel, etc. and have not inflated unreasonably. In fact for the tremendous performance they offer they are quite the bargain.

But a huge number of Americans are slipping out of the middle class making MX pretty unaffordable. This isn't the fault of the Manufacturers, the AMA, or 4 strokes.
pete24
Posts
2733
Joined
10/20/2011
Location
Marlborough, MA, USA
11/29/2011 10:01am
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season. I've scattered my fare share of bikes 2 smoke and 4 banger old and new...
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season. I've scattered my fare share of bikes 2 smoke and 4 banger old and new. I have buddy's that have new shiny 250F's and they run and last forever now the tires may never leave the ground. But any way you slice it when that 4 banger goes south she'll leave your wallet empty with no lube.

You left out;
2012 YZ 125 $6,290.00
Not that I would pay that for a 12 year bike, but hey how 250F's has Yamaha sold with there 13 year old motor in them?
jndmx wrote:
[b]Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season[/b] C class actually......lol. And that would describe roughly 60-70% of the motorcycle buying public I...
Any D class rider can make an 250F last all season

C class actually......lol.

And that would describe roughly 60-70% of the motorcycle buying public I would estimate.
Unless you are riding hard and pulling a Barcia with the rev limiter over every jump those bikes are fine.
aparently Don none of these guys have ever blown up a cannondale, a Z class rider wouldnt make it threw a season on one, i won a lot of WSP motos on them but i think they would have given me a trophy if the thing made it to the finish

and before anyone asks, yes i am a Z class rider ...............well i mite be up to M now!
TeamGreen
Posts
37097
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
11/29/2011 10:13am
Here's what I know:

A clean used 2008 CRF can be had for less than $2500. I saw a damn clean '06 KX450F for $2K, too.

That's as cheap as it get's for the Recreational Track-Day MXer and the tech is as current as you need.

Pump Gas, no oil. Change our engine oil often/change the filter every 3rd oil change (per Honda!). Clutches last FOREVER. Cheap after-mkt parts are EVERYWHERE...notably for the Honda. Add a big tank and you're winning your class at off-road races, too. Keep your valves adjusted and your good. No differnt than a 2T exhaust vlave system...

Reeds, Clutches, 2T oil, Plugs...etc. It ALL costs money, too.

Case closed.

But, you can put your Oil Covered glasses back on and "see it your way". It's what you do.

This is where some of you try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about: Right.

I ride BOTH.
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13255
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/29/2011 10:18am
How about people get over it and have some fun on whatever bike they want to buy, new or used whatever type.
flyinb501
Posts
673
Joined
7/25/2011
Location
Lakewood Ranch, FL, USA
11/29/2011 10:22am
motoplook wrote:
KTM's 250SX retails at $7K before taxes, the 125SX is at $6.2K, the 150 at $6.3K. I don't see where you say that KTM has understood...
KTM's 250SX retails at $7K before taxes, the 125SX is at $6.2K, the 150 at $6.3K. I don't see where you say that KTM has understood and 2-strokes are not expensive. $7K for a 250 2-strokes is pretty expensive. I don't understand where does the idea that they are "that much cheaper" comes from.

Also, in amateur race mode, every how often are you changing pistons/gaskets on a 2-storkes? reeds? pipes? Maintenance is easier but it ain't cheaper. You don't change top end as much on a 450 4-stroke, unless you are racing AMA Pro or going to LL, which we know is not in the future for 99% of the people on this forum, you included.

Buying a stupid used 2-strokes like others said on this thread, let me laugh out loud because your $1,500 - or even $2,500 - 2-strokes will cost you at least $1,500 before you can be competitively racing B class in your area. And, with a 2-strokes, you never know what the guy has really done with it before and you will surely have a flywheel or/and cranks and/or top end change in the very near future. In the end, you will be very close to $5K with a 5 or 6 year-old used bike, all paid cash, when you could have financed a problem-less 250F or 450F.

Overall there is no drastic difference. Except, of course, for the weekend warriors that only ride practice or just woods, once or twice a month, like most on here.

As far as business and OEM strategies and what the consumer want, you above all should know, if we are where we are today with the 4-strokes, it's because we the consumers made it happen, our demand made the OEM concentrate on the 4-strokes and we embraced it.
Oh, so now we changed our mind (because we're getting old and fat) and decided we don't like blondes, we prefer brunettes? fine, but let' not blame it on others, let's be adult a bit and accept accountablility.

Now I'm older and fat, so I will probably look at a 2-strokes to go trot around the parks on weekend, but if my boys go racing, then there's nothing better, easier to ride, with the best power/weight ration and gnar than those amazing 250F, 350F or the mighty 450F, the Formula 1 of MX race bikes!
"Buying a stupid used 2-strokes like others said on this thread, let me laugh out loud because your $1,500 - or even $2,500 - 2-strokes will cost you at least $1,500 before you can be competitively racing B class in your area. "

This is the biggest crock of BS I've heard in a very long time...
TeamGreen
Posts
37097
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
11/29/2011 10:26am
How about people get over it and have some fun on whatever bike they want to buy, new or used whatever type.
Hey!

FU!

No-one asked for your Logic or Sensibility!

Damn you!

This is an ANTI-EVRYTHING thread!

GO AWAY!

(Kinda like a Occupy Vital thread, if you will)
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13255
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/29/2011 10:39am
How about people get over it and have some fun on whatever bike they want to buy, new or used whatever type.
TeamGreen wrote:
Hey! FU! No-one asked for your Logic or Sensibility! Damn you! This is an ANTI-EVRYTHING thread! GO AWAY! (Kinda like a Occupy Vital thread, if you...
Hey!

FU!

No-one asked for your Logic or Sensibility!

Damn you!

This is an ANTI-EVRYTHING thread!

GO AWAY!

(Kinda like a Occupy Vital thread, if you will)
This is just such bullshit. Any bike from the last ten years is good enough for probably 98% of people to do as well as they would on any other bike with a little attention to suspension and basic maintenance.

The whole new bike 4-2 stroke bitch fest nonsense is really a charade for people who want new bikes regardless of whether they "need" it, but can't afford it and feel the need to complain. The industry and consumers got fat on cheap credit.

Bikes have gone up in cost almost every year since I got into the sport in 71. Any new bike is pretty expensive these days regardless of engine type. There's have always been people who could swing it only if they made payments. Lenders say no now.
motoplook
Posts
362
Joined
4/19/2010
Location
KZ
11/29/2011 11:08am
flyinb501 wrote:
"Buying a stupid used 2-strokes like others said on this thread, let me laugh out loud because your $1,500 - or even $2,500 - 2-strokes will...
"Buying a stupid used 2-strokes like others said on this thread, let me laugh out loud because your $1,500 - or even $2,500 - 2-strokes will cost you at least $1,500 before you can be competitively racing B class in your area. "

This is the biggest crock of BS I've heard in a very long time...
biggest crock of BS yourself bro!

full top end,
cranks, gears, shock, fork, exhaust.....
TeamGreen
Posts
37097
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
11/29/2011 11:29am
How about people get over it and have some fun on whatever bike they want to buy, new or used whatever type.
TeamGreen wrote:
Hey! FU! No-one asked for your Logic or Sensibility! Damn you! This is an ANTI-EVRYTHING thread! GO AWAY! (Kinda like a Occupy Vital thread, if you...
Hey!

FU!

No-one asked for your Logic or Sensibility!

Damn you!

This is an ANTI-EVRYTHING thread!

GO AWAY!

(Kinda like a Occupy Vital thread, if you will)
This is just such bullshit. Any bike from the last ten years is good enough for probably 98% of people to do as well as they...
This is just such bullshit. Any bike from the last ten years is good enough for probably 98% of people to do as well as they would on any other bike with a little attention to suspension and basic maintenance.

The whole new bike 4-2 stroke bitch fest nonsense is really a charade for people who want new bikes regardless of whether they "need" it, but can't afford it and feel the need to complain. The industry and consumers got fat on cheap credit.

Bikes have gone up in cost almost every year since I got into the sport in 71. Any new bike is pretty expensive these days regardless of engine type. There's have always been people who could swing it only if they made payments. Lenders say no now.
Bingo II
mx216
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11/29/2011 12:14pm
Why the hell do you need credit to buy a dirtbike? If you cant buy a recreational toy without borrowing money then you shouldnt be recreating. Idiots spending money they dont have is whats got everything jacked up. And not everyone is irresponsible in that sense, but the way lenders were giving out loans was ridiculous. We'd have full on beginners come in the shop and if they got top tier on their credit they for sure bought pipes, bars, graphics, and extra gear like they were goin outta style on top of the the 8000 dollar bike and maxed that credit line out. Lol at no credit/bad credit lenders from the last few years, thanks guys.
mark_swart
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11/29/2011 12:22pm
I was at my local track Saturday (River City MX, NC) and I am sure there were more two strokes than four strokes out there.
That being said, I'm also pretty sure that they were all going slower than I was on my 450.

I like two strokes, and If there were a viable racing structure for two strokes, I would have no hesitation to switch back. If we decided that all +30 classes should be two stroke only, I would jump for joy. Until then, I'll be shimming valves and changing oil, because I can't give up the seconds-per-lap that a two stroke would cost me. Like them or not, four strokes go faster around a track over the course of a moto than two strokes, even for us mortals.

For that matter, why can't the manufacturers and AMA do as was suggested earlier, come up with some sort of technology limited class standard that would make MX accessible?! Something that would still be capable of doing the obstacles but not as expensive to maintain? Woods riders would create a shadow market and boost the sales as well.
Lightning78
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11/29/2011 12:26pm
...older 125 & 250 2 strokes. The decline of the industry as a whole reflects the shrinking market. Yes, there will be the wealthy few buying...
...older 125 & 250 2 strokes. The decline of the industry as a whole reflects the shrinking market.

Yes, there will be the wealthy few buying new 4 strokes and they will win races.

But the roots of the sport will be the weekend guys racing and rebuilding their 2 strokes.

The industry is too short sighted to be proactive in responding to this consumer shift.

We'll go back to relatively inexpensive racing while the few race the latest 4 strokes with fuel injection and traction control.

But the guys having the most fun will be those who picked up an old 2 stroke that they can ride for a fraction of the cost.

A few of those brave soles will choose to race while the majority will choose to "practice" or ride on private land.

My industry is reacting to a shrinking market and is providing products to maintain market share. From a MX perspective, it seems only KTM is willing to support the direction of the sport for the masses rather than only top level pro support.

4 strokes will be for the wealthy while used 2 strokes will support the weekend warriors either on the track or on private land.
100% correct and I am one of those that is picking up the latest 2 strokes as fast as u can find them. What's funny is how good the last generation of 2 strokes actually are....... Any one of them would be competitive with the right rider on board at all but the ama pro level and with the new ktm250sx that's even debatable. I have a long list of all the 2 strokes I plan on picking up over the next couple years and not a single one of them will cost more than $1500 each. Not to mention these bikes mostly have little time on them. I plan on having more 03 and up RM's ane every last gen 2 stroke made along with some standouts like The 93-96 cr250. As long as people are selling them "looking for a 450" cheap ill keep buying them and having a blast! Smile
mxb2
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11/29/2011 12:34pm
mx216 wrote:
Why the hell do you need credit to buy a dirtbike? If you cant buy a recreational toy without borrowing money then you shouldnt be recreating...
Why the hell do you need credit to buy a dirtbike? If you cant buy a recreational toy without borrowing money then you shouldnt be recreating. Idiots spending money they dont have is whats got everything jacked up. And not everyone is irresponsible in that sense, but the way lenders were giving out loans was ridiculous. We'd have full on beginners come in the shop and if they got top tier on their credit they for sure bought pipes, bars, graphics, and extra gear like they were goin outta style on top of the the 8000 dollar bike and maxed that credit line out. Lol at no credit/bad credit lenders from the last few years, thanks guys.
Yea spending money on the mx industry is a bad thing , lol, Let people spend their money the way they want.
mx216
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Location
Portland, OR, USA
11/29/2011 12:44pm
mx216 wrote:
Why the hell do you need credit to buy a dirtbike? If you cant buy a recreational toy without borrowing money then you shouldnt be recreating...
Why the hell do you need credit to buy a dirtbike? If you cant buy a recreational toy without borrowing money then you shouldnt be recreating. Idiots spending money they dont have is whats got everything jacked up. And not everyone is irresponsible in that sense, but the way lenders were giving out loans was ridiculous. We'd have full on beginners come in the shop and if they got top tier on their credit they for sure bought pipes, bars, graphics, and extra gear like they were goin outta style on top of the the 8000 dollar bike and maxed that credit line out. Lol at no credit/bad credit lenders from the last few years, thanks guys.
mxb2 wrote:
Yea spending money on the mx industry is a bad thing , lol, Let people spend their money the way they want.
Lol obviously missed the point. Im all about people spending "their" money. Not borrowing others. Going into debt for a dirtbike is stupid and if you say otherwise well, more than likely ur in debt for a dirtbike hahaha. Work hard save ur money and buy a bike when you got the cash. It also helps when you go to sell it after 2 years and you can only get 3500 and still owe 5500, if you paid outright you put 3500 right back in your pocket.
Lightning78
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Location
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
11/29/2011 12:58pm
mark_swart wrote:
I was at my local track Saturday (River City MX, NC) and I am sure there were more two strokes than four strokes out there. That...
I was at my local track Saturday (River City MX, NC) and I am sure there were more two strokes than four strokes out there.
That being said, I'm also pretty sure that they were all going slower than I was on my 450.

I like two strokes, and If there were a viable racing structure for two strokes, I would have no hesitation to switch back. If we decided that all +30 classes should be two stroke only, I would jump for joy. Until then, I'll be shimming valves and changing oil, because I can't give up the seconds-per-lap that a two stroke would cost me. Like them or not, four strokes go faster around a track over the course of a moto than two strokes, even for us mortals.

For that matter, why can't the manufacturers and AMA do as was suggested earlier, come up with some sort of technology limited class standard that would make MX accessible?! Something that would still be capable of doing the obstacles but not as expensive to maintain? Woods riders would create a shadow market and boost the sales as well.
Even Decoster stated it takes more talent to go faster on a 2 stroke. Yes I get passed by a lot more riders on 450's that given on the same 2 stroke wouldn't happen and I've slown down a little as well. However for me it is far more rewarding to execute obstacles on a 2 stroke regardless of how fast I am going. A thumper isn't as fun to ride for me and I don't buy into the fact that a last gen 2 stroke is that far behind ..... The CR's and RM's still carry the TC showas and the yz's have the exact same SSS suspension being used on the yzf's. A decent port job and a few cheap goodies and you're pushing 50 plus hp which in total costs less than a new 4 stroke exhaust system, not to mention the 30plus years 2 strokes have had in r&d for chassis design weight placement and balance. 4 strokes have roughly 10, granted it is easier now for mfg's to make advancements but overall 2 strokes aren't vintage bike relics. That's how I see it ..... 2 or 4 whatever works for you, I find my choice to be 2 strokes and the group of people we ride with have an equal mix of both.
mxb2
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22437
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Location
Bowie, MD, USA
11/29/2011 12:58pm
Na man nice try though. Guess you are lucky to have a high paying job to save for a $8000 mx bike, but my riding buddies have improved their credit and paid off the bike in 2 years. They did not want to wait to save for the whole amount, I do not tell a grown man how to spend his money, they work hard, play hard, life is short enjoy your hard earned money. Guess its better than spending $8000 on gambling?

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