2-Stroke Reality Dose

JB 19
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Marion, OH US
7/5/2011 3:55pm
hellion wrote:
Jody's the only one brave enough to call a spade a spade. He know four strokes are fun and admits to racing them often. He just...
Jody's the only one brave enough to call a spade a spade. He know four strokes are fun and admits to racing them often. He just wants the rules to be fair so that a two stroke can compete. He thinks if the rules were different most would switch back to two strokes, I think he's right.
JB 19 wrote:
The vet classes have always been run what you brung. No rule is going to make the 2 bikes equal if you can already race whatever...
The vet classes have always been run what you brung. No rule is going to make the 2 bikes equal if you can already race whatever you want........They can already race 250cc bikes of 2 or 4 stroke in amateur racing.......what else does he want?
Overdrive wrote:
Not pickin at you but what 2 stroke do you suggest to ride against a 450? If 250's can compete head to head what 2 stroke...
Not pickin at you but what 2 stroke do you suggest to ride against a 450? If 250's can compete head to head what 2 stroke is there to compete head to head with a 450? A 2 stroke 500 that hasn't been updated since the 80's.
Thats exactly my point. In the world of run what you brung I don't know that you can build a 2 stroke to compete. 4 strokes are better race bikes for most people and thats why they won't go away. They may be hurting the sport, but they are here now.

.......and lets not forget that Jody was one of the guys slobbering all over the new 4 strokes 13 years ago.

....................and that is old article........and all the decades old pictures tell me Jody is just tring to relive the past.....
JB 19
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Marion, OH US
7/5/2011 4:00pm
Also, the dude needs to get off his high horse and realize that there a few of us who once upon a time entered a race two.........calling us all stupider than him is pretty arrogant.

...........he needs to tell the doc he needs some meds, a beer, or a time machine.
7/5/2011 4:17pm Edited Date/Time 7/5/2011 4:18pm
JustMX wrote:
Perhaps what you should do is read the article again and try to look at it from another [img]https://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1106/perspective-mirrors-demotivational-posters-1308848113.jpg[/img]
Perhaps what you should do is read the article again and try to look at it from another

as a long time 2 stroke fan I had the right perspective. It seems that people should probably just buy what they like best. Unless you are pro it really doesn't matter much.
7/5/2011 4:18pm Edited Date/Time 7/5/2011 4:20pm
I do like the picture though!

The Shop

`ol Ger
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Piqua, OH US
7/5/2011 4:32pm
Excellent article ! Well written with just the right touch of humor.
JustMX
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Location
TN US
7/5/2011 4:36pm
What our sport needs right now is a class that 125s can race in head to head for any age rider.

Then a 19 year old that has to pay for their own racing can at least race on a local level.

Instead we have 39 classes including schoolboy 1 and schoolboy 2.

If a 15 year old has a 250 then let hem race in a displacement class (250C, 250B etc).
Tiki
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Corona, CA US
Fantasy
7/5/2011 5:06pm
TeamGreen wrote:
It's not just the displacement rule. The Fuel rules don't help and there's no real reason for a fuel rule...why? Because, the new "Unleaded/4% Ox Max"...
It's not just the displacement rule. The Fuel rules don't help and there's no real reason for a fuel rule...why?

Because, the new "Unleaded/4% Ox Max" fuel rules have simply made fuel MORE expensive and MUCH LESS AVAILABLE.

There were reasons for a lot of these rules at one time or another.

Those reasons aren't around, anymore.

Jody's right about some of this; yet, he's naive about a lot of it.

And, I for one...am glad he is.
Cough (CARCool Cough (EPA) Cough... excuse me, I had a tickle in my lungs...
I guess this is all the AMA's fault and the wicked witches of California had nothing to do with this. At all?

But Team Green knows nothing about the Bay Area Politics and those who promote it?Whistling
JB 19
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Marion, OH US
7/5/2011 5:36pm
JustMX wrote:
What our sport needs right now is a class that 125s can race in head to head for any age rider. Then a 19 year old...
What our sport needs right now is a class that 125s can race in head to head for any age rider.

Then a 19 year old that has to pay for their own racing can at least race on a local level.

Instead we have 39 classes including schoolboy 1 and schoolboy 2.

If a 15 year old has a 250 then let hem race in a displacement class (250C, 250B etc).
I agree with this guy. ^
jndmx
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South Kingston, RI US
7/5/2011 5:45pm
I am all for allowing two-strokes to run an even displacement also.

I am kind of amused at what a great fisherman Jody is though.
He writes that same sort of column every 8 months or so and this place blows up.

As I said before it is ironic that this is the magazine that is loaded with ads for aftermarket 4 stroke parts and routinely recommends the "best new factory bike"....four stroke of course.
Yet the guy somehow comes across as the voice of the common two-stroke man railing against the system that he helped sell to everyone.

Genius......lol.
PRM31
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Northern, VA US
Fantasy
7/5/2011 5:50pm
I thought his article was on the mark. He qualifies it enough stating it is his opinion. I think the added cost and complexity ultimately hurts the sport. More cost equals lower bike sales, fewer participants, lower aftermarket sales, etc, etc. Most of us ride for fun. Making it more expensive does not make it more enjoyable.
yota
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Crystal River, FL US
7/5/2011 5:58pm
what does Jody know about mx bikes anyway, he's only tested ans RACED about every model of mx bike to come along in the last 40 years or so. he's an old guy who could still beat 98% of the "racers" on vital.
newmann
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US
7/5/2011 5:58pm
All of the Japanese OEM's make 25 different cruisers, entry level, low level and high end crotch rockets, naked bikes, dozens of different atv's and a dozen different side by side utv's. Two questions:

1)Is it really asking too fucking much for them to make a couple two stroke motocross bikes alongside the four strokers?

2)Is it really asking too much to put some realistic displacement rules in place for pro racing?
jtomasik
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Golden, CO US
7/5/2011 6:09pm
LOL New 2 strokes cost the same a new 4 strokes. There is a negligible price difference. And if you can do your own top end...
LOL New 2 strokes cost the same a new 4 strokes. There is a negligible price difference. And if you can do your own top end on a 2 stroke you can do it on a 4 stroke. Next time someone complains about cost maybe they should take at look at that $600 iphone in their pocket or their $60000 toy hauler.

If $300 is gonna break your bank... you shouldnt be buying a damn dirt scooter.

Most of us MX'ers like 2 strokes that's why most of us still have them. He's basically preaching to the choir. That's why he should stop preaching to us and try some execs and crooked politicians.

Not crying JMC41. Just bored at work.

jeff
Actually, 2 strokes don't cost the same as 4's. 2's are less expensive. KTM's 250 smoker is about $1000 less than their 250 thumper.

Doing a top end on a two stroke doesn't automatically qualify you to do a top end on a 4-stroke.

Not all of us who ride can afford a $60,000 toy hauler, so it's quite possible the price delta makes a difference.

And, last, 2-strokes aren't sold in near the quantity that the 4-strokes are. If they were, their price would likely go down.
Moto4T5
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Corona, CA US
7/5/2011 6:42pm
Always loved Jody's articles in Jody's box, dude has been around for a long time, good people.
zookie
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Guilford, CT US
7/5/2011 8:31pm
I happen to agree with a lot of what he says. As much as I love technology and the recent EFI developments, etc....I have to say, I think steel frames, 2 stroke engines, and the keep it simple philosophy is the best way to go for this sport. Quieter, cheaper, simpler, etc.
7/5/2011 8:43pm Edited Date/Time 7/5/2011 8:47pm
Everyone was waiting for my opinion. Ha Ha. Seriously, I personally have a huge gripe with the whole thing. First, I'd say a lot of it was pre written with almost the same name, by a friend of ours here. He will come forth if he wants, but anyone who remembers the 5 year plan, knows who I'm speaking of. Second, and my largest complaint. Jody is starting to Tiki me off. Pun intended. I don't recall reading anywhere in any of these rants he has, blaming himself on current events (yeah, he does say in the past it was their fault, but not current reasons), or his or any of the magazines for what I started calling for and now others are. A fair shootout. Jody: the buck stops here. Sure, I appreciate you are a 2 stroke fan. But instead of calling out only the ProAMA, MXsports, DC and everyone else. Please, take a step back. They have the rules that are set in place, and most likely won't change until sales or as we say, where the money is. So, the question is, are you gonna start calling out the magazines finally for what we are asking for. A FULL Amateur focused, what we race, buy and ride bike for bike shootout???? Are you gonna add in your rants about how, even though the Pro's are forced to race the crappy rules, we (3rd person like he uses) are also still to blame, because we won't run a FULL shootout for what Amateurs can buy, ride, and race???? We sell magazines to amateurs, we do not sell magazines to Pro's. We do advertisement to amateurs, we do not do advertisements to pros. We do writeups about how to fix bikes to amateurs, we do not do writeups for pros. That is my rant. Love me or hate me, I'm being honest and everyone knows why it isn't happening $. But to only blame others for what is going on, is BS. Step up, or ??? JMHO. Yeah, you guys didn't expect that from a pro 2 stroke guy to a pro 2 stroke guy. I'm gonna get slammed, because I'm not all supportive of someone supporting the 2 stroke cause. But even for 2 stroke guys, it gets old... (Blame game) Full shootouts does more in my opinion, than a pro ranked race.
Hank_Thrill
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Arlen, TX US
7/5/2011 9:37pm
My favorite Highlights!

- For a small handful of the millions of American dirt bike riders motocross is a business—and winning is the mantra.

- And I’m here to tell you that if you have a brain larger than Neanderthal man (or Jason Lawrence) you would own a two-stroke.

- Maybe it’s just me, but a four-stroke feels like you are piloting a Cadillac Coupe DeVille down the track.. There is no romance in steering an ocean liner into a harbor nor a 450cc thumper around a race track.

- Imagine that I told you that a motorcycle manufacturer was working on a revolutionary engine design for 2013 that was eight pounds lighter, revved quicker, produced ten more horsepower (per quarter liter), had one-tenth the moving parts, was cheap to produce, cost less to maintain and could be rebuilt for a quarter of the price of your four-stroke? Would you be interested?

- I’m a believer in the ticking time bomb theory of four-stroke ownership—because I’ve had more than a few go off under me. Guess what? A two-stroke is also a ticking time bomb...it just packs less explosives and does less damage when it detonates.

- On a two-stroke you throw in a new piston and get back into action for less that $300 (counting labor). Not so with a four-stroke. If it blows up at the end of its service cycle, which is approximately three years, it will ding your wallet to the tune of $1000 to $3000.
txmxer
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Weatherford, TX US
7/5/2011 9:44pm
This article is far from his best. It rambles a lot.

I do like 2 strokes, but, if you want to race, you want to win. Whether it's an extra twenty to show in the a class or a trophy in the c class, you want to win. Right now, the 4 strokes are much better race equipment.

The current 450 is the most amazing race bike ever. Obviously the am rule changes have not influenced development. Why? The best racers are sponsored on the bikes that are built.

The lynch pin will be 125cc. Can't build a competitive 4 stroke at that size. If there is a series at that size, the 2s will rule and we will see them again.
CamP
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Colleyville, TX US
7/5/2011 10:12pm
I'm toying with the idea that a 2012 KTM 250SX with a 300cc kit will be my next bike.
jmar
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Oklahoma City, OK US
7/5/2011 10:15pm
There are no "real" issues with the 450. If fact, it's be a great tool when it comes to leveling the playing field as far as motors go, and I don't care what size of two stroke you want to bring to the line. It isn't going to compete with the 450. The 450 should be an open class.

The 250 class is a totally different animal though. The OEMs either need to sleeve the 250f down, or the two strokes should be allowed to run a larger displacement.
CR250Rider
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Moses Lake, WA US
7/5/2011 10:21pm
CamP wrote:
I'm toying with the idea that a 2012 KTM 250SX with a 300cc kit will be my next bike.
me too
jmar
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7/5/2011 10:23pm
CamP wrote:
I'm toying with the idea that a 2012 KTM 250SX with a 300cc kit will be my next bike.
I think the 250sx is a fantastic bike.
burn1986
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12246
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bossier city, LA US
7/6/2011 5:34am
Everyone was waiting for my opinion. Ha Ha. Seriously, I personally have a huge gripe with the whole thing. First, I'd say a lot of it...
Everyone was waiting for my opinion. Ha Ha. Seriously, I personally have a huge gripe with the whole thing. First, I'd say a lot of it was pre written with almost the same name, by a friend of ours here. He will come forth if he wants, but anyone who remembers the 5 year plan, knows who I'm speaking of. Second, and my largest complaint. Jody is starting to Tiki me off. Pun intended. I don't recall reading anywhere in any of these rants he has, blaming himself on current events (yeah, he does say in the past it was their fault, but not current reasons), or his or any of the magazines for what I started calling for and now others are. A fair shootout. Jody: the buck stops here. Sure, I appreciate you are a 2 stroke fan. But instead of calling out only the ProAMA, MXsports, DC and everyone else. Please, take a step back. They have the rules that are set in place, and most likely won't change until sales or as we say, where the money is. So, the question is, are you gonna start calling out the magazines finally for what we are asking for. A FULL Amateur focused, what we race, buy and ride bike for bike shootout???? Are you gonna add in your rants about how, even though the Pro's are forced to race the crappy rules, we (3rd person like he uses) are also still to blame, because we won't run a FULL shootout for what Amateurs can buy, ride, and race???? We sell magazines to amateurs, we do not sell magazines to Pro's. We do advertisement to amateurs, we do not do advertisements to pros. We do writeups about how to fix bikes to amateurs, we do not do writeups for pros. That is my rant. Love me or hate me, I'm being honest and everyone knows why it isn't happening $. But to only blame others for what is going on, is BS. Step up, or ??? JMHO. Yeah, you guys didn't expect that from a pro 2 stroke guy to a pro 2 stroke guy. I'm gonna get slammed, because I'm not all supportive of someone supporting the 2 stroke cause. But even for 2 stroke guys, it gets old... (Blame game) Full shootouts does more in my opinion, than a pro ranked race.
I agree that Jody and MXA need to cut some of the OEM strings and run a full shootout. I think we have both agreed with this from day one. However, I think the ProAMA, MXSports and DC have run with the 4-stroke trend and crystalized the rules (to pander to the OEMs-Honda) until there is no negotiation or consideration for anything that doesn't line up with the 4-stroke agenda.

Yes, Jody was amazed at the YZ400, as was everyone, but no one planned on the sport going in the direction it has gone. We all see the cost and technology of the sport increasing and morphing into some sort of Nascar-like Formula 1 media show.
bwh998
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AZ US
7/6/2011 5:45am
jmar wrote:
There are no "real" issues with the 450. If fact, it's be a great tool when it comes to leveling the playing field as far as...
There are no "real" issues with the 450. If fact, it's be a great tool when it comes to leveling the playing field as far as motors go, and I don't care what size of two stroke you want to bring to the line. It isn't going to compete with the 450. The 450 should be an open class.

The 250 class is a totally different animal though. The OEMs either need to sleeve the 250f down, or the two strokes should be allowed to run a larger displacement.
bwh998
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AZ US
7/6/2011 5:46am
i also have some shootouts where the ktm300 was waxing 450f's asses, but seem to have lost the link.
zookrider62!
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Plano, TX US
7/6/2011 5:59am
It's always good to hear what a guy who doesnt pay for bikes or to race has to say on what bikes to buy when you...
It's always good to hear what a guy who doesnt pay for bikes or to race has to say on what bikes to buy when you race.
dboivin wrote:
i'm pretty sure he has bought a bike or 2 in his 40+ years of riding/racing. I'm no jody fan or 2 stroke lover...but he's right...
i'm pretty sure he has bought a bike or 2 in his 40+ years of riding/racing. I'm no jody fan or 2 stroke lover...but he's right on about all accounts.

why hasn't the ama changed 2stroke displacement reg's to match up with the 4 strokes? 4 strokes were given CC's to make them competitive....well give 2 strokes 150cc and 300cc.

reason: because everyone would buy 2strokes....you put RV on a 300 2 banger...and its over.
Yes im sure he bought some bike in the 70s and 80s. But we arent talking about the 70s or 80s are we?
jmar
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Location
Oklahoma City, OK US
7/6/2011 6:17am
jmar wrote:
There are no "real" issues with the 450. If fact, it's be a great tool when it comes to leveling the playing field as far as...
There are no "real" issues with the 450. If fact, it's be a great tool when it comes to leveling the playing field as far as motors go, and I don't care what size of two stroke you want to bring to the line. It isn't going to compete with the 450. The 450 should be an open class.

The 250 class is a totally different animal though. The OEMs either need to sleeve the 250f down, or the two strokes should be allowed to run a larger displacement.
bwh998 wrote:
just curious, what do you think about this? http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/service_honda_500af_vs_crf450.pdf [IMG]http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/bwh998/tw_500af_test-1.jpg[/IMG]
This isn't pro level racing. The AF is a fantastic bike but I still don't believe that it's as good as a "WELL" set up, and finely tuned 450 in pro level racing. For those who believe differently, the AF is readily available so go and purchase one and live happily ever after. And if a new one is two pricey, then buy a used one. You can find used AFs for less than a new four stroke.

Like I said, AFs are fantastic bikes, and in my personal opinion, the 450 class should be a true open class and bikes like the AF should be allowed to race.
burn1986
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12246
Joined
4/16/2010
Location
bossier city, LA US
7/6/2011 6:18am Edited Date/Time 7/6/2011 6:19am
Yes im sure he bought some bike in the 70s and 80s. But we arent talking about the 70s or 80s are we?
How can you make an intelligent reply without reading the article that this thread is based on? Blink
JustMX
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TN US
7/6/2011 6:19am
While we are on this topic everyone needs to be aware that there was a push last year to make the Honda 150F legal in the 85 classes.

If you disagree with this please make sure and contact your district's AMA congressperson and let them know.

IMO this would do the same thing to the 85 classes that the 250F has done to the "125" class.
ccoady454
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151
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8/24/2010
Location
Taylorville, IL US
7/6/2011 6:21am
Apparently a few of you don't get the point. He agrees that the 4 strokes are amazing pieces of machinery. It's the 1997 displacement rule that started it all and has it been a free-fall downward spiral ever since. The rule change brought on the idea that the 4 stroke was better ONLY because of the handicap it was given. Hell, I'd play a $1,000,000 18 hole match against Tiger Woods if I was given a 60 stroke (no pun intended) handicap!

"Four-strokes are not more powerful than two-strokes. Their horsepower and torque come from a common parlor trick called “cubic centimeters.” Four-stroke are only competitive with two-strokes because they are larger. Under AMA rules, four-stroke engines are allowed to be as much as 100 percent larger than two-strokes." AKA Handicap

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