Class Warfare

Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 8:41am
colintrax wrote:
How did we get to this notion plumbers didn't go to school after high school? https://www.shamrockplumbing.net/2020/12/do-you-need-a-college-degree-to-become-a-plumber/   Any trade that pays well is going to be...

How did we get to this notion plumbers didn't go to school after high school?

https://www.shamrockplumbing.net/2020/12/do-you-need-a-college-degree-t…

 

Any trade that pays well is going to be "skilled labor." Which generally means a trade school or 2 year program with some sort of apprenticeship.

 

So again, there's still student loans and debt that come from this.

So the only way to make a decent living in this country is to go into debt? Plumbers struggle with student loans? My son-law is an electrician, he doesn't have that problem, maybe it's because I was allegedly born rich?

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Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 8:44am
ToolMaker wrote:
Did anyone here suggest we didn't need trades people? Because your kids had their expenses paid by you is not indicative of "normal". Your son obviously...

Did anyone here suggest we didn't need trades people? Because your kids had their expenses paid by you is not indicative of "normal". Your son obviously has some smarts. If he grew up in the house next door without your resources, should he have been a plumber? Because he didn't have time to apply himself through high-school since he had to work a job? Your kids still incurred costs, those costs were just paid for by you.

In response to your "direct question" about something that's already been answered, I'll repost for your convenience, 

"Disclosure, I was and am against student debt write off. I did however tell my kids do NOT pay on your loans this period because if they are going to hand out money to everyone else you may as well take it too p. Here's the thing, what makes you more valuable than a roofer that has the same struggles? Why should we give you $10k or $20k and not the roofer? What about the parent who worked the last 20 years to save and pay for their kid? Also, most of the money would be given to upper income families anyway. It's pretty disingenuous to argue student loans are bad and then still promote them. Convince me I'm wrong on that. If you want to claim you didn't get your money's worth, make the university refund your debt. They are the ones who took your money. Why should I pay for you? I already ponnied up a shit ton of hard earned $$s for the kids my wife and I brought into this world and call our own."

TM

Now, you answer, should your son have been a plumber because he didn't have your resources to pay his expenses?

Spoonguy wrote:
My kids have had jobs since they were 14, as did I. I have fatherless high school kids working for me grossing over a grand a...

My kids have had jobs since they were 14, as did I. I have fatherless high school kids working for me grossing over a grand a week. Your notion that young people are powerless with out help from their parents displays your perspective of the topic. 

ToolMaker wrote:

I see you conveniently avoided the question. Should your son have become a plumber had he not had your resources?

Sure, why not? It's a great job.

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TeamGreen
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7/5/2023 8:46am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as...

I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as academic learning. 
 

As for the question of whether someone who made it through college without debt should pay for someone else’s debt, I think that is a false perspective. I think that we should all help advance the education of our populace, just like those of us who may not have ever used the services of our local fire department help fund those departments for those who have needed them multiple times. 

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

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Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 8:50am

family with 25,000 acres poor, or parents skipping meals so the chilren can eat poor?

Spoonguy wrote:
I don't know if my upbringing is germain to the topic, but your question is. If somebody had ever had any advantage in life it should...

I don't know if my upbringing is germain to the topic, but your question is. If somebody had ever had any advantage in life it should be confiscated for the greater good because it is unfair is what you are implying. And the definition of advantage can be liquid and a moving target.

I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.   Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact...

I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.

 

Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact, did not.

So when you say you also came from nothing, it raises some doubt. 

 

Im just trying to better understand your definition of poor

Perhaps your insistence of me being wealthy at youth has nothing to do with confiscating anything. But it certainly displays a bitterness, and resentment of people better off than yourself and a lack of belief people can improve their lot in life without help. Obviously, you believe, there is no way my kids could get academic scholarships unless I was born wealthy. Kind of a stretch, but it displays a mindset.

1

The Shop

colintrax
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7/5/2023 8:52am
Spoonguy wrote:
So the only way to make a decent living in this country is to go into debt? Plumbers struggle with student loans? My son-law is an...

So the only way to make a decent living in this country is to go into debt? Plumbers struggle with student loans? My son-law is an electrician, he doesn't have that problem, maybe it's because I was allegedly born rich?

Please tell me how your son in law became an electrician

3
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 8:59am

He did go to school, but paid his way through, it wasn't expensive or long. His journeymen's is earned through his employer. Honestly, it is a great job.

1
APLMAN99
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7/5/2023 9:02am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2023 9:04am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as...

I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as academic learning. 
 

As for the question of whether someone who made it through college without debt should pay for someone else’s debt, I think that is a false perspective. I think that we should all help advance the education of our populace, just like those of us who may not have ever used the services of our local fire department help fund those departments for those who have needed them multiple times. 

TeamGreen wrote:
Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone…. I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. ...

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

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zookrider62!
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7/5/2023 9:03am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2023 9:04am
Spoonguy wrote:
I don't know if my upbringing is germain to the topic, but your question is. If somebody had ever had any advantage in life it should...

I don't know if my upbringing is germain to the topic, but your question is. If somebody had ever had any advantage in life it should be confiscated for the greater good because it is unfair is what you are implying. And the definition of advantage can be liquid and a moving target.

I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.   Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact...

I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.

 

Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact, did not.

So when you say you also came from nothing, it raises some doubt. 

 

Im just trying to better understand your definition of poor

Spoonguy wrote:
Perhaps your insistence of me being wealthy at youth has nothing to do with confiscating anything. But it certainly displays a bitterness, and resentment of people...

Perhaps your insistence of me being wealthy at youth has nothing to do with confiscating anything. But it certainly displays a bitterness, and resentment of people better off than yourself and a lack of belief people can improve their lot in life without help. Obviously, you believe, there is no way my kids could get academic scholarships unless I was born wealthy. Kind of a stretch, but it displays a mindset.

youre so damn condescending. Let me make this very clear, I could not care less how your kids got to where they are today. The only thing I have any interest in, is what you consider to be poor, because you thought Bezos grew up poor. 

This is not a gotcha moment where I hope you say the wrong thing so I can show how your kids had an advantage over less fortunate, because you had more opportunities than you are implying that you had.

So, were your parents 25,000 acres poor, or skipping meals poor. There is wide range on what people consider to be poor.

 

3
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 9:10am
I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.   Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact...

I'm not implying shit, and i'm not even posting about the original thread topic.

 

Earlier you said Bezos came from nothing, which he in fact, did not.

So when you say you also came from nothing, it raises some doubt. 

 

Im just trying to better understand your definition of poor

Spoonguy wrote:
Perhaps your insistence of me being wealthy at youth has nothing to do with confiscating anything. But it certainly displays a bitterness, and resentment of people...

Perhaps your insistence of me being wealthy at youth has nothing to do with confiscating anything. But it certainly displays a bitterness, and resentment of people better off than yourself and a lack of belief people can improve their lot in life without help. Obviously, you believe, there is no way my kids could get academic scholarships unless I was born wealthy. Kind of a stretch, but it displays a mindset.

youre so damn condescending. Let me make this very clear, I could not care less how your kids got to where they are today. The only...

youre so damn condescending. Let me make this very clear, I could not care less how your kids got to where they are today. The only thing I have any interest in, is what you consider to be poor, because you thought Bezos grew up poor. 

This is not a gotcha moment where I hope you say the wrong thing so I can show how your kids had an advantage over less fortunate, because you had more opportunities than you are implying that you had.

So, were your parents 25,000 acres poor, or skipping meals poor. There is wide range on what people consider to be poor.

 

Do you require tax returns? I will say this, today my day is being spent hauling and spreading gravel. Something that appears beneath most people here who are implying non-college jobs are beneath civilized people. I didn't even trade school to do this. Do you think I had rich parents buy my truck? Bet you do, it's the only way you think somebody can get ahead isn't it.

3
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 9:19am

Honestly no condescension or offense intended. My apologies, just observations of the dialogue.

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Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 9:24am

Maybe I am wrong about Bezos, I thought he was born to a 17yr old unwed mother?

1
zookrider62!
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7/5/2023 9:27am
Spoonguy wrote:

Honestly no condescension or offense intended. My apologies, just observations of the dialogue.

All good brother, have a great day.

 

Poor is just an interesting topic to me, as I stated, everyones definition is different, so I wanted to hear yours.

 

FWIW, I don't think having daddy's money is the only way to get ahead in life, but I do believe it makes it easier for those with the right mindset. Rich parents can either produce rich kids, or fuck ups that never learn how to work. Much in the same way that someone who grew up poor can better their life, or get stuck in a "im destined to be poor" mindset.

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zookrider62!
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7/5/2023 9:29am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2023 9:31am
Spoonguy wrote:

Maybe I am wrong about Bezos, I thought he was born to a 17yr old unwed mother?

Had an acholic father that the mother left, and she got remarried.

His mothers parents appeared to have wealth (the 25,000 acres) and loaned him $300K

2
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 9:43am
Spoonguy wrote:

Maybe I am wrong about Bezos, I thought he was born to a 17yr old unwed mother?

Had an acholic father that the mother left, and she got remarried.

His mothers parents appeared to have wealth (the 25,000 acres) and loaned him $300K

Did Ok with 300k.

1
1
zookrider62!
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7/5/2023 9:47am
Spoonguy wrote:

Maybe I am wrong about Bezos, I thought he was born to a 17yr old unwed mother?

Had an acholic father that the mother left, and she got remarried.

His mothers parents appeared to have wealth (the 25,000 acres) and loaned him $300K

Spoonguy wrote:

Did Ok with 300k.

300K to 153 billion is alright, somewhat disappointing, maybe he will do more in his next life

3
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 9:50am

Had an acholic father that the mother left, and she got remarried.

His mothers parents appeared to have wealth (the 25,000 acres) and loaned him $300K

Spoonguy wrote:

Did Ok with 300k.

300K to 153 billion is alright, somewhat disappointing, maybe he will do more in his next life

Trade school material?

zookrider62!
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7/5/2023 9:56am
Spoonguy wrote:

Did Ok with 300k.

300K to 153 billion is alright, somewhat disappointing, maybe he will do more in his next life

Spoonguy wrote:

Trade school material?

300B plumbing company

2
TDeath21
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7/5/2023 11:57am

We need to make sure we tell every lower income child that if they aren’t fortunate enough to be one of the select few to get a scholarship, they need to go into the trades or another job that requires no degree. That would make society much better. 

12
ToolMaker
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7/5/2023 2:04pm
Spoonguy wrote:
My kids have had jobs since they were 14, as did I. I have fatherless high school kids working for me grossing over a grand a...

My kids have had jobs since they were 14, as did I. I have fatherless high school kids working for me grossing over a grand a week. Your notion that young people are powerless with out help from their parents displays your perspective of the topic. 

ToolMaker wrote:

I see you conveniently avoided the question. Should your son have become a plumber had he not had your resources?

Spoonguy wrote:

Sure, why not? It's a great job.

Well like I wrote before, we'll just have to call BS on your posts. Because everything so far has been just that. The posts all seem to be interjected with "hey look at me, I did it" "hey look at me, I'll take a bullet" "hey look at me, I pay kids" but in real life you supported your kids and paid their way so they don't have any debt and want to claim others have the same advantage. And I can say emphatically you never told your son or daughter to be a plumber. I know a lot of kids that were VERY smart with university intentions. Their study and projects consumed a lot of time, pair that with athletic involvement, again time consuming. Here anyway, it's unlikely if not happening at all that you won't get on varsity if you're not in club sports during the rest of the year, or a complimentary sport. IE: waterpolo needs to be in swim in the off season. So your claims that your kids had a job, very suspect. I don't count working for you a "real job" as you would cater their hours to around scholastic requirements, not what real jobs do, be here or get fired. Also, even something as simple as proper meals. But the fact that you don't realize the country needs stem degreed kids means your opinion should not be considered. There's a lot of people here that did very well without degrees, that's not the issue, You just don't seem to get it. And your poor people should just accept anything "that isn't difficult" is just short sighted and archaic. But I get it, nobody gave you a yacht.

Cheers, TM

1
Spoonguy
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7/5/2023 3:32pm
ToolMaker wrote:

I see you conveniently avoided the question. Should your son have become a plumber had he not had your resources?

Spoonguy wrote:

Sure, why not? It's a great job.

ToolMaker wrote:
Well like I wrote before, we'll just have to call BS on your posts. Because everything so far has been just that. The posts all seem...

Well like I wrote before, we'll just have to call BS on your posts. Because everything so far has been just that. The posts all seem to be interjected with "hey look at me, I did it" "hey look at me, I'll take a bullet" "hey look at me, I pay kids" but in real life you supported your kids and paid their way so they don't have any debt and want to claim others have the same advantage. And I can say emphatically you never told your son or daughter to be a plumber. I know a lot of kids that were VERY smart with university intentions. Their study and projects consumed a lot of time, pair that with athletic involvement, again time consuming. Here anyway, it's unlikely if not happening at all that you won't get on varsity if you're not in club sports during the rest of the year, or a complimentary sport. IE: waterpolo needs to be in swim in the off season. So your claims that your kids had a job, very suspect. I don't count working for you a "real job" as you would cater their hours to around scholastic requirements, not what real jobs do, be here or get fired. Also, even something as simple as proper meals. But the fact that you don't realize the country needs stem degreed kids means your opinion should not be considered. There's a lot of people here that did very well without degrees, that's not the issue, You just don't seem to get it. And your poor people should just accept anything "that isn't difficult" is just short sighted and archaic. But I get it, nobody gave you a yacht.

Cheers, TM

You make a lot of assumptions friend.

1
ToolMaker
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7/5/2023 4:44pm
Spoonguy wrote:

Sure, why not? It's a great job.

ToolMaker wrote:
Well like I wrote before, we'll just have to call BS on your posts. Because everything so far has been just that. The posts all seem...

Well like I wrote before, we'll just have to call BS on your posts. Because everything so far has been just that. The posts all seem to be interjected with "hey look at me, I did it" "hey look at me, I'll take a bullet" "hey look at me, I pay kids" but in real life you supported your kids and paid their way so they don't have any debt and want to claim others have the same advantage. And I can say emphatically you never told your son or daughter to be a plumber. I know a lot of kids that were VERY smart with university intentions. Their study and projects consumed a lot of time, pair that with athletic involvement, again time consuming. Here anyway, it's unlikely if not happening at all that you won't get on varsity if you're not in club sports during the rest of the year, or a complimentary sport. IE: waterpolo needs to be in swim in the off season. So your claims that your kids had a job, very suspect. I don't count working for you a "real job" as you would cater their hours to around scholastic requirements, not what real jobs do, be here or get fired. Also, even something as simple as proper meals. But the fact that you don't realize the country needs stem degreed kids means your opinion should not be considered. There's a lot of people here that did very well without degrees, that's not the issue, You just don't seem to get it. And your poor people should just accept anything "that isn't difficult" is just short sighted and archaic. But I get it, nobody gave you a yacht.

Cheers, TM

Spoonguy wrote:

You make a lot of assumptions friend.

Well brother, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Cheers, TM

1
ToolMaker
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7/6/2023 6:09am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as...

I look at education, including vocational education, as an investment in our society. I think that we should be investing in apprenticeship programs as well as academic learning. 
 

As for the question of whether someone who made it through college without debt should pay for someone else’s debt, I think that is a false perspective. I think that we should all help advance the education of our populace, just like those of us who may not have ever used the services of our local fire department help fund those departments for those who have needed them multiple times. 

TeamGreen wrote:
Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone…. I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. ...

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.   Whether or not private education...

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

1
zookrider62!
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Location
Plano, TX, USA
7/6/2023 6:23am
TeamGreen wrote:
Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone…. I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. ...

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.   Whether or not private education...

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

ToolMaker wrote:
Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"? Stanford...

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

BRB, signing up for college. 

Anyone here willing to pay my debt if my career as a T Swift historian doesnt work out?

TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA, USA
7/6/2023 6:45am

Taylor Swift…”English Class”…songwriting…must be some amazing contributions to the literary arts at Stanford. 

Stanford’s recent fail with a circuit court judge’s guest speaking event was a real eye opening look into how there’s no decorum in the modern university setting. 

I remember when we were pursuing the finer details to The Standard Model at SLAC. Damn, how things change. 

1
ToolMaker
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7/6/2023 6:48am
APLMAN99 wrote:
These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.   Whether or not private education...

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

ToolMaker wrote:
Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"? Stanford...

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

BRB, signing up for college. 

Anyone here willing to pay my debt if my career as a T Swift historian doesnt work out?

If I ran into you at the track, I'd bring you over a beer, just cause I felt sorry for ya. Wink

2
zookrider62!
Posts
6825
Joined
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Location
Plano, TX, USA
7/6/2023 6:58am
ToolMaker wrote:
Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"? Stanford...

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

BRB, signing up for college. 

Anyone here willing to pay my debt if my career as a T Swift historian doesnt work out?

ToolMaker wrote:
If I ran into you at the track, I'd bring you over a beer, just cause I felt sorry for ya. 

If I ran into you at the track, I'd bring you over a beer, just cause I felt sorry for ya. Wink

Any help is appreciated - God bless

APLMAN99
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Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
7/6/2023 7:31am
TeamGreen wrote:
Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone…. I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. ...

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.   Whether or not private education...

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

ToolMaker wrote:
Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"? Stanford...

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

Sounds like it could be interesting, although nothing that I would have taken if I were a student.  I don't know much about Taylor Swift other than she is a pop star and my wife and daughter's thought it would be fun to go to her first show of her tour in Phoenix.  

Again, this is a good example of making an assumption of a class without really having any knowledge of what it will actually be, or whether or not we feel the subject is 'worthy' because we don't have that interest.  It could be a dud of a class, or it could be fantastic if done correctly.  As I said, it probably isn't something that I would take but I definitely was a bit jealous of my son when he took a History of Folk Music class on the way to his math degree!!!!

5
APLMAN99
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Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
7/6/2023 7:33am
TeamGreen wrote:
Taylor Swift…”English Class”…songwriting…must be some amazing contributions to the literary arts at Stanford.  Stanford’s recent fail with a circuit court judge’s guest speaking event was a...

Taylor Swift…”English Class”…songwriting…must be some amazing contributions to the literary arts at Stanford. 

Stanford’s recent fail with a circuit court judge’s guest speaking event was a real eye opening look into how there’s no decorum in the modern university setting. 

I remember when we were pursuing the finer details to The Standard Model at SLAC. Damn, how things change. 

C'mon, Manny.  Do you think that this class is somehow affecting the scientific work at the SLAC?  That's a non sequitur at best!

Cool

3
Motoxdoc
Posts
2710
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Location
Steamboat Springs, CO, USA
7/6/2023 8:16am Edited Date/Time 7/6/2023 8:23am
TeamGreen wrote:
That’s all I hear when Joe talks about any of his programs and his desire to give away money/buy votes.  As he attempts to give away...

That’s all I hear when Joe talks about any of his programs and his desire to give away money/buy votes. 

As he attempts to give away money that he has NO AUTHORITY to give…he runs his mouth about ONLY “republican” millionaires and how they’ve gotten an unfair leg up…

FROM HIS OWN PROGRAMS…like HIS 2nd tier of COVID relief…etc. 

He accuses house republicans of benefiting from HIS programs as he blames them for his FAILURE before the court. Huh? 

And, let’s be clear, he pushes this shit as a typical “haves versus the have-nots” from the class warfare handbook. 

1. Debt is something these people signed up for when they got their French Art History degree from U-Penn. 

2. The average working family/tax payer DID NOT sign the college loan contract. 

3. The use of Executive Orders to side-step the constitution, no matter who’s doing it, needs to STOP.

 

I take it you don't like Biden's programs...or him as a person.  It's worth reiterating some of the good he has done...as well as the other Demacratic presidents, in comparison to ALL of Republican presidents in the last 3 decades.

I'll start with jobs created and the national deficit in relation to the GDP.

The US economy added 339 thousand jobs in May of this year, well over the 195 thousand that were expected.  The US has had 29 consecutive months of jobs growth, starting with Biden’s first month in office; he has presided over the creation of 13.1 million jobs in just over 2 years, more jobs that have ever been added during any presidential term, even in 4 years. But he’s not the only democratic president to have presided over a strong economy.  Of the 49 million jobs created since 1989, 96% have been created under democratic presidents.  That’s 47 million jobs added under democratic presidents and 1.9 million added under republican presidents.  Biden alone has created almost 7 times as many jobs as the last 3 republican presidents combined.  Not Great for a political party that’s branded themselves as the party of jobs, jobs, jobs!  George H. W. Bush started his presidency with an unemployment rate of 5.4%; he left the office with the rate at 7.3%.  Clinton brought the unemployment rate back down to 4.2%.  George W. Bush brought the unemployment rate back up to 7.8%.  Obama left his office with the unemployment rate at 4.7%.  Trump brought it back up to 6.3%.  When Biden came into office the unemployment rate was headed upwards at 6.4%, 30 months later it’s at 3.6%....are you starting to see a trend?  Here is a visual.

image-20230706091126-1

Republicans have allowed the unemployment rate to rise under their watch while simultaneously allowing the deficit as a percentage of the GDP to surge; every single republican president of the last 3 decades has watched this deficit increase and every democratic president of the last 3 decades has watched it decrease.  In fact, during Trump’s term, all of those fiscally responsible republicans voted unanimously to add 7.8 trillion dollars to the debt to give themselves a tax cut.  A quarter of ALL the US debt was accrued under Donald Trump himself; so, this idea that republicans are fiscally responsible might be a nice branding for them, but it’s undermined by every single factual economic metric that exists.

Don't compare Biden to the almighty, compare him to the alternative(s).

6
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early
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7/6/2023 9:42am
TeamGreen wrote:
Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone…. I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. ...

Let me ask the following in an adult, serious and hopefully reasonable sounding tone….

I’ll stipulate the idea of education as an investment in our society. 

But, who’s setting the price of that investment and the unrealistic “value” of it. I literally have NO INTEREST in paying for student loans at Princeton, Harvard or Cornell prices. I honestly believe those institutions have scaled the price of their degrees…their contribution to our society…

To a price that’s not reasonable. 

Also, I’m not seeing the value of my money going to the UC system…nor places that are teaching 18th Century French Art History. 

So, all of that brings me back to “who” are we paying for and what was the value of their education? And, again, I didn’t sign these contracts for these loans. That’s really the point here. 

I’m not happy with the idea of you paying someone else’s debts. Doesn’t matter if it’s the ridiculous bail outs of the financial institution that shit the bed 15 years ago or these ridiculous strident loans that have been allowed to escalate to insane levels…

There’s a lot more to be said for that money staying with you and your family for your own future contributions to our society. 

This is where I’m coming from & hopefully it doesn’t read like something that comes from any sort of political thought process; because, it doesn’t. It comes from one family man to another. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.   Whether or not private education...

These are all good, decent questions and would need to be considered before any meaningful decisions or changes should be made.  

Whether or not private education is included is a very good question, but as stated most of the need to attend those schools is covered by the institution itself.  Those universities only really receive anywhere close to the full tuition from the very wealthy who attend. 

I may disagree with your view that the UC system isn't worth it, but that's a matter of perspective I suppose.  My son is a mathematician, and the UC system is probably the top 'system' of schools in the world when it comes to that field.  They may have some areas that seem like fluff, but a lot of the time we (including me) think that because we really don't have an interest in them, and we don't completely understand how there could be that much to learn about those fields.  I am guilty of that, I am sure.  

The "18th Century French Art History" part is something that I think applies to that point as well.  I have no interest in learning about that in depth, but I have taken similar classes and feel like it has helped me look at things differently than I might have otherwise.  Some of my favorite (and most thought provoking/changing) classes had nothing to do with my major but were huge in my overall development as a person.  I wouldn't have wanted to major in Philosophy, but I use things that I learned in my Philosophy of Religion class almost daily.  Same with Anthropology classes.  And there is a need to preserve those lines of study, even though they may not make the degree holders wealthy the same way that a degree from Harvard Law has the potential to.  

So I can't say that I have a hard and fast idea of what I would like to see as far as changes to the availability of higher education, but I would definitely like to see it improved and cost less.  And yes, that includes making it overall cost less than it currently does.  Just not sure how to get there!

ToolMaker wrote:
Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"? Stanford...

Stanford is now going to offer a class to study Taylor Swift. I guess that will help people with their "overall development as a person"?

Stanford University student Ava Jeffs is in her professor era.

The rising sophomore and lifelong Swiftie — a term used to describe fans of pop music icon Taylor Swift — is creating the curriculum for a new English class that examines the singer’s songwriting over the course of her career.

There’s more, of course. Jeffs said:

The whole goal of the class is to dive into the art of songwriting, exploring the interplay between literary references and lyricism and storytelling in Taylor Swift’s entire discography, taking it one album at a time and trying to look at the evolution of using songwriting as a narrative form.

It will draw parallels to classic works of literature and poetry in each album and gain a deeper understanding of the narrative power of music.

I took a history of rock and roll and history of motion pictures classes as general education requirements when I was in college. They were easy BS classes but I did learn a few things from them from some really good teachers who were very knowledgeable and passionate about the subjects. 

Sure there's lots of BS degrees, but you don't want to throw away the whole lot. You want your engineers, scientists, medical workers, computer nerds, and teachers to have a well rounded knowledge about their fields. 

For those of you that didn't go to college, there's alot more to learn than what you hear on Joe Rogan.

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