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Oh, my bad, some of those athletes get special considerations for their academic index.
It might be the same thing to the government’s bottom line, but they are still entirely different…One is taking (or not taking) something from an individual (tax cuts)…the other is taking from one individual to give to another (debt forgiveness). Not even the same thing.
Exactly in the 80’s…there might be correlation in timing between Reagonomics and Tuition rate increases, but that doesn’t mean causation. The student loan availability is what caused the tuition increases and has allowed tuition rates to go as high as they have…its not a coincidence that as student loan debt started skyrocketing so did tuition rates…come on bro…it’s economics 101.
This country doesn’t have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem…Anyone that wants to cut taxes will get a hearty high five from me. Anyone that wants to actually cut spending-any spending-(especially spending which inherently reduces the size and scope of government) might get a frikkin hug from me, and will almost certainly get my vote. Those people don’t seem to exist in politics.
And Neither party wants to cut spending…
That’s exactly the point though. The government walked past the mom with a starving child and threw a few hundred dollar bills at the guy as he pulled his Ferrari into his vacation home. You can try to claim they’re different if you want to but no rational person can think that’s okay. Help none fine. Help both fine. If you’re only going to help one though, it’s obvious what the choice is.
You’re right I’m sure it’s all coincidence that right when Reagan slashed taxes for the top 1%, the wealth gap immediately started widening, now to rates we have not seen since the Gilded Age, and middle class wages stopped keeping up with inflation like they had the previous few decades. Which of course means it’s complete coincidence more people had to take out loans to go to college. All coincidence. Economics 101 bro.
You must be in the top 1% then. Congrats! Either that or you just love being thrown table scraps on the floor for you to eat while the top 1% and major corporations have their all you can eat feast at the dinner table.
Little bit jealous of wealthy people I see. Why should it be anybody's business what somebody is worth. And no matter who the government taxes it is money coming out of the free market into the bureaucracy. Tax the poor, corporations, wealthy, whatever it is money from the citizenry.
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Most, especially the usual bunch here, still haven't let it sink in that the consumer pays every single penny of taxes levied on businesses.
They also fail to understand the term, spending power.
Decreased taxes flow downhill, and give us more bang for the buck.
There's no way in hell that can be argued.
I’m gonna start calling you Joe Biden. You claim he has dementia and your names are similar so it’s just perfect.
So, Joe Biden, do you love how huge the wealth gap is now that Reaganomics has been seen on a long term scale since the early 80s? Almost like, wait for it, nothing trickles down because they just hoard the wealth for themselves. Who woulda thought!?
What you got out of, “The government essentially drove past the starving child and threw 100 dollar bills at the man driving the Ferrari.” was, “I hate rich people.”
Wow. Do better.
There's a lot to unpack in this. Lets start with your original that you seem to keep backing up with more of the same.
"As harsh and as cruel as it sounds, if you can't figure out a way to pay for college, don't go." paired up with,
"Want doesn't have anything to do with anything. What if I want a yacht... too bad. You think want makes you eligible for a free engineering degree, are you kidding me?"
Of course nobody's going to give you a yacht if you wake up one day and want one. But your words come off as an ignorant elitist. Why do I say that? Because 25 years ago that same post could have been from me. I worked my ass off and rose to a very respected status in my industry. But in doing so, I was ignorant to struggles of people that weren't doing as well. I had the same attitude, apply yourself more and you'll succeed. However, life is messy and things don't always go as planned. I didn't find out that until later in life. I was in a bubble because I was immune to recession. I was so immersed in my job that I didn't have any social life and understand the challenges others faced. You act like a kid wakes up and wants an engineering degree, most kids going that route, have worked their ass off for most of their life to go down that path. You you think a kid wakes up with high marks in higher math classes without doing WORK, just like you do? The problem with success is that successful people associate with other successful people and live in a bubble. They think because things "worked out" for them it should be the same for the next person. It's not. Because your model worked out, that doesn't make it "the model"
BTW, I never said I was poor and I most certainly never said I was rich. However, I'll say it now. My life is very rich. I have a wife that loves me, 2 wonderful kids, a house to live in with food to eat every day. There is more to life than the amount of money you have in the bank. The path to success is not always a straight line.
TM
You actually think wealthy people just have huge Scrooge McDuck vaults at their homes to stash away money so you can't get it? The wealthy buy homes and pay people to maintain them and the taxes on those homes. They invest their money in companies that provide jobs. They are the ones employing, buying cars, boats, homes, investing, creating commerce, generating tax revenue. All this financial action creates wealth for others. Bezos started with nothing and anyone smart enough to tag along with him and buy during his IPO is a multi-millionaire as well. In this country you can pick the smartest, wealthiest person you can think of and buy parts of their companies.
There's no sense in trying to explain real world economics to his/they/them type.
They've been told that a supply side economy doesn't work.
And they believe it.
Personally, in the past 30+ yrs in the upper end homebuilding business, I've earned every dollar off of the rich.
Have yet to miss a meal.
Joe Biden your best bet here is to not say anything. Many others on this site might still think you’re smart. The more you post though, the more obvious it becomes to everyone you are the opposite.
You must be a 1%er. Nobody else who isn’t completely brainwashed would go to bat for them like this. Within 20 years, at this current pace, 95% of the stock market will be owned by less than 1% of the population. Yet you guys still come here and say mega tax cuts for them is the best way to go, as middle class wages stagnate and the wealth gap widens because of those exact policies.
Bezos grandparents owned a 25,000 acre ranch, thats not nothing haha
Every rich person I have ever known or worked for encourages, advises, and helps me to be wealthy as well. All are incredibly generous as well. Honestly your attitude about others is often reflected by who you associate with. If you hang with people who are consumed with life's unfairness you will feel likewise.
You are getting way off in the weeds...
Tax cuts, and government bailouts/handouts aren't the same. No matter how many times you say it. One is keeping money you earn, the other is taking money from one person and giving it to another.
So to stay on topic, answer this...do you believe the risk free, endless student loans have an affect on tuition rates? Yes or No?
Even if middle class wages had kept up with inflation, it wouldn't make a difference when tuition costs are out pacing inflation by 100X's.....Why do you think tuition costs outpace inflation by so much?
Yep.
Their wealth has increased mine.
For what its worth, the income gap started growing in the 70's...largely due to stagflation/recording inflation which punished the poor and middle class.
"The years from the end of World War II into the 1970s were ones of substantial economic growth and broadly shared prosperity.Incomes grew rapidly and at roughly the same rate up and down the income ladder, roughly doubling in inflation-adjusted terms between the late 1940s and early 1970s.
The gap between those high up the income ladder and those on the middle and lower rungs — while substantial — did not change much during this period.Beginning in the 1970s, economic growth slowed and the income gap widened.Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly."
https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statist…
I know you are trying to pin this income gap on reaganomics...but I think you are off the mark on that, and about a decade too late. That ball started rolling down hill and picking up speed in the 70's...
Reagonomics did bring inflation down. Which ultimately helped the poor and middle class (rich don't care if gas goes from $.99/gallon to $6/gallon...or if eggs go from $1/dozen to $6/dozen...but the poor/middle class sure do.).
income isn't a zero sum game...everyone can earn as much as they want. It's not like there is a limited amount, and the poor don't get any because the rich have it all.
I still believe that in America ANYONE can start with nothing, and end with whatever their ambition, risk tolerance, brain, creativity, work ethic and networking abilities can create for themselves.
I'm typing this sitting on a yacht owned by a great friend of mine that dropped out of high school, for a time was living on friends couches, and he and his wife had to get by clipping coupons and shopping at thrift stores. Now they are independently wealthy. Those same stories happen over and over again in this country. That is why people still try and come here. The issue is that this government, more and more, is getting in the way of that trying to legislate equal outcome rather than sticking to equal opportunity.
Pit Row
Sitting here in our home in east Tennessee overlooking watts bar lake.
Our other home is a cabin at the top of linville gorge in N.C.
Three rental cabins next to the GSMNP.
Everything was funded by earnings from other's discretionary income.
Via viable job skills, work ethic, living within your means, and taking full advantage of our capitalist system.
Not one single penny was gifted from a government coffer.
Nor a check from anyone living off the government teet.
What else went bonkers in the 70’s and has even been the basis of the term…”Petro-Dollar”…?
The cost of energy.
And let’s not forget that it was our dependence on foreign sources of energy that has caused us to have those f’d up years in the 70’s…words like “embargo” and “cartel” became norms.
Disclaimer: I have no issue with nor is this post meant to cause any sort of “Eat the Rich” or “The 1% are The Devil” response.
Just recently…as in VERY RECENTLY…we were at “Net Export” levels on our own energy production …but, alas, the minions put Joe and Granholm in-charge.
As I always say,”You can’t make this shit up!”
So if life doesn't "work out" for you, the government should make it "fair". From who do you take, who decides that? Who decides whose life "worked out" or not. If the wealthy are to be perpetually discriminated against, who decides who or what is wealthy? Is wealth a measure of a good life or are you just angry that someone has something you don't have? Are 90% of American wealthier than the rest of the world anyway? Is the problem really that people can't get just by wanting?
You are arguing semantics. It’s the exact same result. Would it make you feel better if everyone attending college got an extra 10-20K back on their taxes over the course of the next 5-10 years? Or if everyone attending college got an extra 10-20K given to them upon initial enrollment? Or you show your tuition payments and get that money back from the government? (I.e. keeping the money you initially earned)
Yes loans will cause universities to raise prices, which is why I’ve stated multiple times that more needs to be done. Things like regulating how much public universities who get tax payer money can charge in tuition.
But given your other opinions, you would likely be against that as well and the government be hands off. What do you think an 18 year old who can’t pay for college, but wants to go, should do? Loans is their only option currently, unless they are fortunate enough to get a scholarship of some kind. What’s your solution? College only for the rich?
How about we go to a model where we buy grades. A kid gets out of HS and wants to go to college. If they need to, We give them up to a $5K loan for living expenses and free tuition (yes we already do that it's called community college). The money comes in increments for living expense. (You'll have to prove attendance and proficiency in the classes you're taking to keep getting funding. Now If you get As we buy those grades with a voucher to use against the next year. Bs get less money and such. Just like a business, if you do well, you keep going, if not, change direction. (I'm sorry but we are investing not handing out, you need to perform) When you get done with CC and transfer, we still buy grades but they are weighted. If you are in a shit degree you get shit compensation to continue. Also, IF you as a university get any government money (research grants, tax credits, tax discounts) we get to regulate how much you will charge (as a package, not just tuition) My kids books were never less than $500 each. There are other ways to invest in kids than just keep giving them "loans" that become so big they are for many insurmountable. Just like a business has to have a plan for a business loan, you have to have a plan for investment in you. I'm not for giving free money to kids to keep going to school that just don't want to get a paying job and party for 4 years, but I also recognize there are people that need help. Maybe a business sponsors you for a tax credit? And you commit to work for them. There are many solutions that don't involve "giving money" with no return.
Also, if the university fails you , they get dinged. We monitor the class, if too many get poor grades, refund. If the professor passes them and the next semester a high failing rate, the professor failed them but fictitiously advanced them, again, refund. The model we're on is unsustainable, needs to change.
That fact that you think the government "allowing" you to keep more of your money, and taking your money and giving it to someone else is "semantics" is, well, part of the problem in this country. Holy smokes...
You keep using works "get back"..."get that money back from the government"...which proves my point is going entirely over your head...its not about "getting back", its about the government not taking it in the first place.
I would like it much better if the government cut everyones taxes so they could better pay for college-or whatever else they choose.
Since you acknowledge that easy student loan money is causing tuition to go up...then the solution isn't MORE government (government regulation)...it's less government...the government needs to stop guaranteeing student loans. As soon as the government stops doing that (less government), then loans will become risk based, and the problem will solve itself, as tuition drops because there is suddenly less customers for the colleges.
I would ask that 18 year old why he wants to go to college? What does he want to do with his life? Since 60% if college students never graduate or never work in the field they studied...the chances are very high that the 18 year old won't need to go to college to get where he wants to go. And if he does need college to get where he wants to go, I'd encourage him to start at a community college for his generals, while working a job to cover living expenses (and its doable...I DID IT!) and if he needed a small amount of risk based student loans to make it through use those as a last resort.
I don't want to do away with student loans...only make them risk based.
So if life doesn't "work out" for you, the government should make it "fair", Nope the governments job is not to make things fair.
From who do you take, who decides that? We have a progressive tax system because you need a certain amount to just live. Above that, the taxation rate can be higher. We can argue what and where all day long and never agree. I think a flat tax rate of 14% with zero deductions on anything above $30k would work, that's just me.
Is wealth a measure of a good life or are you just angry that someone has something you don't have? The only one angry here seems to be you. I don't need or want what you have to be comfortable and happy. I am blessed to have waaayyyy more than I need or deserve. Enough so that I am happy for you even so we don't agree. Why exactly are you so angry?
Are 90% of American wealthier than the rest of the world anyway? Is the problem really that people can't get just by wanting?
Yes and no. Yes we are wealthier but we don't live there and can't live on their income because we live here. NO, everybody wants something, most times people are willing to work for what they want. We do have to find a way whether we are investing in them or just giving. IF we are investing, we should be getting a return. If we are giving we are just stupid.
And BTW, yes the wealthy do have McScrooge safes. Not that I care , they should, most worked for it. But it's called real estate, jewlery, art, car collections.................. Most things that appreciate in value and are not taxed. Wealthy people pay people to advise them how to not pay taxes (which I agree with, if it's legal utilize it).
Let me simplify this for you even more. Would you be okay with anyone in college paying 0 taxes whatsoever until they hit the 20K threshold of their own money they got to keep by not paying taxes? That’s my entire point. It’s the EXACT SAME result. I’m not sure how you don’t understand that. You are arguing semantics about this and it’s all redundant.
I agree we spend way too much on a lot of things and we could drastically reduce spending and cut taxes for everyone. But wouldn’t you agree it’s super dumb to give the biggest tax breaks to the top 1%? That’s what that point was about.
What year did you do that in? How much have college prices increases relative to general inflation since then? That’s hardly doable anymore.
18 year olds rarely know what they want to do. They often figure that out in college or even in their 20s, 30s, 40s, so forcing all 18 year olds to answer that question and give aid accordingly or deny entry if needed would not work and would 100% be abused and would allow higher income earners to be the ones with a higher chance of going to college.
Not angry about a thing. Confused, certainly, angry, never. Confused how so many people in a country of unlimited wealth want the government to confiscate from achievers, developers, and creators to benefit those that choose not to. Confused that so many people want to penalize the very creators of commerce in this country. Confused that some still believe wealth can be created by taking from others. Confused that in a country where half the students drop out of college and many others get empty degrees some still feel the need for government to pay for it. Confused that in a country where trades people are earning substantial incomes, people still insist college is the key to a good living.
I would significantly prefer tax cuts so people can pay for college (or whatever else they freely choose to do with THEIR money), vs. higher taxes and then using that tax revenue to pay for student loan (or ppp) forgiveness for people who knowingly took out a loan.
it's not semantics...at all...one is keep your money...the other is the government taking it and giving it to someone else. How is that semantics?
But again, the government is the reason for high tuition rates to begin with (so kids can't work through school any more) because of the risk free, government guaranteed student loans tuition rates have out paced inflation by almost 200%....the government is the problem...and the solution sure as heck isn't more government (higher taxes, government funded student loan forgiveness, etc. etc.). The solution is to get the government out of student loans...let all the tuition money dry up, and colleges will be forced to reduce tuition rates...then suddenly kids can afford to work their way through school.
College isn't to help someone figure out what they want to do with their life...if they can't answer that question, I'd advise them to wait to enroll in college until they know what they want to do. Then if they absolutely NEED college, start at a community college, utilize scholarships and other financial aid, work a job, and if needed borrow as an absolute last resort.
Anyway...I've said this as slowly, and clearly and as many times as I'm going to say it...if you don't understand it by now you never will...peace!
It is definitely semantics. The government deficit is the exact same whether they give huge tax cuts to the ultra wealthy or help out some low-middle income Americans with just a little relief … so the economy will continue to boom like it currently is. And they already set a precedent about loans with PPP loan forgiveness. Now for the tuition loan forgiveness, only a small amount, 10-20K, one side of the aisle is digging their heels in now. After being perfectly fine with the tax cuts to the top 1% and the PPP loan forgiveness.
The government loans was an attempt to help find a minor solution to a major problem. But without regulation to go along with it, yeah they’re gonna raise tuition and maximize profits. They have to be regulated.
College literally does exactly that for millions of people. Millions of people realize during their gen eds what their passion is and then follow it. Denying that opportunity to millions of lower income Americans seems extremely wrong to me.
What your idea does is force middle and lower income Americans to do X Y Z as well as go to school full time to get through college. While the higher income Americans focus solely on college. The government loans were an attempt to even the playing field, but colleges saw opportunity for profits and took it.
A higher educated society is a better society. Crime drastically decreases as the education level rises. That’s why taxes go to fund public schools. The return of investment is well worth it.
Bye.
To abandon the topic of poor people are entitled to other people's things if they are rich and back to student loans, many of my employees are college students or that age. To the responsible kids, college expense is a doable sacrifice. These kids are almost always successful adults. To the irresponsible kids, who maybe party too much, miss a lot of work, it is tough. But as adults, they have many problems as well, besides student expenses. It is a pattern I have seen for decades. Even if you bail out some kids student loans who borrowed too much, they are not all of a sudden resonsible people. If they are victims of the student loan scam in this country, they will be victims of the banking industry their whole lives. Amongst other problems. If the government pays off their loans it does not change the fact that they are the kind of people who don't care about tomorrow's consquences for today's behavior. There had always been people like this and no amount of wealth redistribution can change them or their lives.
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