Microblue Coating

kwenske321
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Edited Date/Time 6/21/2018 9:40pm
Currently in the midst of an engine rebuild for my 2006 RM250, and I have been considering coating the bearings, lower rod bearing, rod, wrist pin, wrist pin bearing and transmission with the microblue coating. When I called microblue to inquire about their service they suggested coating the piston, piston rings and cylinder as well. When talking to microblue, they referenced "project two50" which I hadn't heard of up until a week ago. After scouring through a variety of old Google searches and forum topics I came across a few threads relating to "project two50." If I am not mistaken, this project never really worked out.. Upon further discussion with microblue, I was informed that once all of the aforementioned engine components were coated, I would need to jet up approximately 15%. After thinking about it, that seems like a huge jet change for some engine coatings. If recall correctly, I remember reading on TT a post from a user and affiliate with project two50 that the engine required a 215 main jet in order to run properly. I believe it was a 2010 yz250 and I think stock they are somewhere in the neighborhood of 175? For anyone familiar with this coating, what about the coating requires such a significant increase in fuel vs the same motor with no coatings? Have any of you coated all of your internal engine componets with this coating and what was the result? I have been told almost every single race team, factory and privateer, use this coating.
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adam8781
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9/2/2016 9:44pm
Never heard of them, how far are you willing to take it?

what about other coatings? dlc the wrist pin, ceramic crank bearings? isf your crank, could even do a dlc coated crank pin.

9/2/2016 10:16pm
One of the best things you can do is micropolish and cryo/heat treat all the internals. I have used it in most of my race bikes and a bunch of my customers engines. It makes for silky smooth shifting, lower Temps and it is so durable it's almost crazy. Not cheap but worth every penny if your looking for a serious motor.
ianhendry46
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9/3/2016 6:18pm Edited Date/Time 9/3/2016 6:23pm
Cryoheat.com
Www.wpctreatment.com
FGR01
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9/3/2016 10:01pm
Please explain why a coating would necessitate richer jetting.

The Shop

kwenske321
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9/4/2016 8:47am
FGR01 wrote:
Please explain why a coating would necessitate richer jetting.
X2, that's the answer I am looking for!
9/5/2016 6:52pm
minidad160 wrote:
X3 I would like to know as well.
After looking it up, it says they are running 100:1 to 200:1 ratio for 2 strokes.
slipdog
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9/6/2016 7:49am
minidad160 wrote:
X3 I would like to know as well.
minidad160 wrote:
After looking it up, it says they are running 100:1 to 200:1 ratio for 2 strokes.
Well that makes no sense since that just would make it the opposite and need leaner jetting instead of richer. I was going to say that maybe they were running a 16:1 mix, lol
kwenske321
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9/6/2016 8:51am
minidad160 wrote:
X3 I would like to know as well.
minidad160 wrote:
After looking it up, it says they are running 100:1 to 200:1 ratio for 2 strokes.
slipdog wrote:
Well that makes no sense since that just would make it the opposite and need leaner jetting instead of richer. I was going to say that...
Well that makes no sense since that just would make it the opposite and need leaner jetting instead of richer. I was going to say that maybe they were running a 16:1 mix, lol
Exactly what my initial thought was!

If you running 100:1 - 200:1, you already have increased the amount of fuel, why do you need to re-jet +15% on top of the richer fuel mixture?
Falcon
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9/6/2016 5:11pm
If the coating negatively affects the cooling process, you'd need more fuel to cool the burn.
kwenske321
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9/6/2016 8:17pm
I have had a couple positive conversations with Rodney at Millenium Technologies about the coating in the last week. He personally used the coating in his vintage 2-stroke. He didn't recall having to make any sort of significant jet changes once his motor was complete. I am going to proceed with coating the cylinder, piston, rings, crank, etc. I'll keep you guys posted. Mailing the parts out this week, once I get them back I'll post some pictures.
9/7/2016 12:16am
I am also going for dlc on crank, piston, wrist pin and clutch arm, etc. Following this threadSmile
9/7/2016 7:23am
kwenske321 wrote:
Exactly what my initial thought was! If you running 100:1 - 200:1, you already have increased the amount of fuel, why do you need to re-jet...
Exactly what my initial thought was!

If you running 100:1 - 200:1, you already have increased the amount of fuel, why do you need to re-jet +15% on top of the richer fuel mixture?
Maybe they jet richer to bring more oil in haha!
kwenske321
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10/14/2016 10:02pm
Update!



I sent the entire transmission to microblue for their coating (WS2) and the pieces look pretty good. The face of each gear looks significantly smoother. Prior to coating microblue super finished all of the pieces. Also, I sent all of the transmission bearings, main bearings and cylinder. I sent my piston assembly and crank shaft to Crank Works for balancing, and after balancing Crank Works sent the rod, lower rod bearing, wrist pin, wrist pin bearing, piston and rings to microblue for coating. Started reassembly of the motor tonight starting with the tranny, and I will post more pictures of the piston assembly, crank etc. in the coming week.

The negative, once coated, microblue sent the pieces back without cleaning. It's taking a lot of varsol soaks, WD-40 and elbow grease the clean all the what I assume to be WS2 residue off. You'd think a company that talks and thinks so highly of its friction reducing coating would at least clean the pieces prior to return.
Dtat720
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10/15/2016 12:36am
I have been doing this treatment for several years inhouse. WS2 is the lowest drag coefficient you can use. It is a heat reducer as well. Your parts had residue remaining for a reason. You want some loose WS2 in your trans when you assemble. It will bond to other moving parts that have not been coated to add further protection. But also, having it in your oil allows reapplication if a spot on your trans is stripped. That is one of the benefits of WS2, if you get grit in your engine and it strips the coating, eventually it will reapply itself to the bare area.

We tested with Brian Herta a few years ago with Indycar transmissions and WS2. They were having cold welding issues in high g turns and oil starvation. WS2 solved the problem. Went from needing 18 quarts of trans fluid to prevent starvation to running 8 quarts and WS2. Ran a 500 mile test with a dry trans, no fluid, only WS2. No galling, no cold welding, no failure.

I coat my own engines every time i buy a new bike. Doing it right now on a yz250 2 stroke.
kwenske321
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10/15/2016 9:41am
Dtat720 wrote:
I have been doing this treatment for several years inhouse. WS2 is the lowest drag coefficient you can use. It is a heat reducer as well...
I have been doing this treatment for several years inhouse. WS2 is the lowest drag coefficient you can use. It is a heat reducer as well. Your parts had residue remaining for a reason. You want some loose WS2 in your trans when you assemble. It will bond to other moving parts that have not been coated to add further protection. But also, having it in your oil allows reapplication if a spot on your trans is stripped. That is one of the benefits of WS2, if you get grit in your engine and it strips the coating, eventually it will reapply itself to the bare area.

We tested with Brian Herta a few years ago with Indycar transmissions and WS2. They were having cold welding issues in high g turns and oil starvation. WS2 solved the problem. Went from needing 18 quarts of trans fluid to prevent starvation to running 8 quarts and WS2. Ran a 500 mile test with a dry trans, no fluid, only WS2. No galling, no cold welding, no failure.

I coat my own engines every time i buy a new bike. Doing it right now on a yz250 2 stroke.
Great info, thanks!
10/16/2016 7:22pm
If you are coating the piston & rings how often do you freshen up the top end? How many sets of parts are you sending to be coated?
Dtat720
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10/17/2016 7:43am
If you are coating the piston & rings how often do you freshen up the top end? How many sets of parts are you sending to...
If you are coating the piston & rings how often do you freshen up the top end? How many sets of parts are you sending to be coated?
Personally, i dont coat pistons and rings. WS2 is close to $4,000 a pound. Im not wasting it on parts i change so often.
Markopolo400
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10/17/2016 1:46pm
That old ProjectTwo50 Micro Blue coated the inside of their engine, and they ran 200:1 premix.

But I don't remember that bike actually surviving any races.
Jbulz
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10/17/2016 2:07pm
That old ProjectTwo50 Micro Blue coated the inside of their engine, and they ran 200:1 premix.

But I don't remember that bike actually surviving any races.
Maybe they should have mixed some microblue into their premix
kwenske321
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10/17/2016 9:49pm
That old ProjectTwo50 Micro Blue coated the inside of their engine, and they ran 200:1 premix.

But I don't remember that bike actually surviving any races.
Your exactly right! When I initially spoke to Craig at microblue, he went on and on about how this coating enables you to run lean ratios. I plan on running this motor 32:1.
Dtat720
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10/18/2016 5:17am
200:1 is idiotic. I dont care what its coated with, thats just plain stupid.

kwenske321
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10/18/2016 8:13am
Dtat720 wrote:
200:1 is idiotic. I dont care what its coated with, thats just plain stupid.

X2!

Out of curiosity, how do you apply your WS2 coatings?
Dtat720
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10/18/2016 8:29am
Depends on what it is for. High pressure spray for most stuff, similar to an air brush kit but 120psi in a cabinet. When im at bmx races and doing hubs, i mix it with royal purple synthetic atf fluid and let it coat via carrier, atf being the carrier. It attracts and binds to the metals naturally, atf just ensures it makes its way everywhere. Plus it lubes it while the ws2 isnt fully applied. Vaccum applications for critical stuff. My tundra is coated, put a cap full of powder in a quart of oil every oil change the first 3 oil changes. Instead of 18-19 mpg im getting roughly 24-25 in town and around 30 on the hwy.
kwenske321
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10/18/2016 11:43am
Dtat720 wrote:
Depends on what it is for. High pressure spray for most stuff, similar to an air brush kit but 120psi in a cabinet. When im at...
Depends on what it is for. High pressure spray for most stuff, similar to an air brush kit but 120psi in a cabinet. When im at bmx races and doing hubs, i mix it with royal purple synthetic atf fluid and let it coat via carrier, atf being the carrier. It attracts and binds to the metals naturally, atf just ensures it makes its way everywhere. Plus it lubes it while the ws2 isnt fully applied. Vaccum applications for critical stuff. My tundra is coated, put a cap full of powder in a quart of oil every oil change the first 3 oil changes. Instead of 18-19 mpg im getting roughly 24-25 in town and around 30 on the hwy.
When talking to Craig at Microblue, he told me I would need to jet up approximately 15% after coating all of my engine internals for my RM250. I simply can not understand how a coating would require such a significant increase in fuel. What are your thoughts?
Dtat720
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10/18/2016 11:50am
For what? Its a friction reducer and a lubricant. I question his knowledge to be honest. Jetting is an air/fuel issue, nothing ws2 does has an effect on that ratio. I would ignore that piece of advice. His logic may be that temp reductions allow for more fuel to be introduced, that is the only logic i can bring for that advice. Still, i would ignore it.
kwenske321
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10/20/2016 8:00am
Dtat720 wrote:
For what? Its a friction reducer and a lubricant. I question his knowledge to be honest. Jetting is an air/fuel issue, nothing ws2 does has an...
For what? Its a friction reducer and a lubricant. I question his knowledge to be honest. Jetting is an air/fuel issue, nothing ws2 does has an effect on that ratio. I would ignore that piece of advice. His logic may be that temp reductions allow for more fuel to be introduced, that is the only logic i can bring for that advice. Still, i would ignore it.
In your experiences, does WS2 mixed with trans oil in transmissions with wet clutches cause any extra and/or unwanted slippage?
Dtat720
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10/20/2016 8:28am
Dtat720 wrote:
For what? Its a friction reducer and a lubricant. I question his knowledge to be honest. Jetting is an air/fuel issue, nothing ws2 does has an...
For what? Its a friction reducer and a lubricant. I question his knowledge to be honest. Jetting is an air/fuel issue, nothing ws2 does has an effect on that ratio. I would ignore that piece of advice. His logic may be that temp reductions allow for more fuel to be introduced, that is the only logic i can bring for that advice. Still, i would ignore it.
kwenske321 wrote:
In your experiences, does WS2 mixed with trans oil in transmissions with wet clutches cause any extra and/or unwanted slippage?
Only thing i have noticed is slightly better pull and release. No slipping on any of my bikes, but that has never been an issue for me.

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