Yamaha Question

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4/15/2019 7:27 AM

I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them as we do KTM and Kawi. However, the 250's seem to be very good bikes with top guys contending each week.

What's the difference? Is it the riders? Or is there something "wrong" with the current Yamaha 450?

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4/15/2019 7:44 AM

Ask Webb

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4/15/2019 7:46 AM

Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't

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2005 YZ250
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hamdaddyof2 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, O'Neal, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

4/15/2019 7:49 AM

Barcia won this year didn’t he? I’m no fan but if that guy has the goods to win then he’s a top rider.

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4/15/2019 7:59 AM

i have never tried the new 450 yzf but i’ve often heard that the reverse engine design doesn’t shine very much on the 450 compared to the 250. Maybe it upsets too much the ergo and frame.

It seems to work very very well on the small bike (star racing bike are probably the most powerful 250 bike out there) but not on the big one.

However, it didn’t stop R.Febvre in 2015 to get a world title, nor Barcia to get few MX/SX wins. So maybe they just don’t have the riders right now to put it all together. We will see next year with A.Pless i suppose

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4/15/2019 8:31 AM

There's nothing wrong with the bike at all. You're just hearing the mouth breathers on here talk shit about the bike, which 99% of them have never ridden the thing. It does feel a little wider than the other brands, but nothing that's earth shattering. To be honest you don't even notice it unless you look directly at the shrouds and that doesn't happen once you settle in and actually ride. I think their lack of consistent success here in the 450 class can be attributed to multiple things, but they just haven't had the success with riders that fit lately here in the states as other teams have had.

And it's a reverse cylinder, not the entire engine.

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4/15/2019 8:41 AM

I love the handling on my 450, way better than my 250. Both yzf 2019 models.

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4/15/2019 9:00 AM

Kawis and ktms have hydraulic clutches. Everyone else doesnt. Case closed.

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4/15/2019 9:02 AM

I love my 450. So does everyone i know on yzf. The factory team has just been a joke since the mid 2000's

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4/15/2019 9:06 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

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4/15/2019 9:11 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't

mxb2 wrote:

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

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2005 YZ250
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hamdaddyof2 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, O'Neal, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

4/15/2019 9:11 AM

Webb’s recent interview on swapmotolive he spoke pretty highly of the ‘18 yz450... well he didn’t trash it at least

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4/15/2019 9:12 AM

Are the 250 and 450 virtually the same size? Like interchangeable plastic etc...

Everyone says how bulky the 450 is but the 250 appears to be the same. Maybe 250 handles way better due to the less HP.

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4/15/2019 9:15 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't

mxb2 wrote:

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

Barcias getting paid as a title contender. Kroc has had some bad luck, his fault and other riders fault . Shit happens,. Pretty sure hrc doesnt like excuses. Lol.

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4/15/2019 9:16 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/15/2019 9:17 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't

mxb2 wrote:

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

Yep pay cut, maybe new teammate.

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4/15/2019 9:17 AM

ga_pike wrote:

I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them as we do KTM and Kawi. However, the 250's seem to be very good bikes with top guys contending each week.

What's the difference? Is it the riders? Or is there something "wrong" with the current Yamaha 450?

I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F, but have ridden the '19 YZ250F and all the older YZ450F models.
TLDR: My opinion is that Yamaha's engine tuning philosophy is why their 450cc motorcycle feels heavy and slow.


When the 2010 YZ450 (first reversed engine model) came out, I rode one and it was a terrible chassis.
Any other motorcycle felt better entering corners than that model. Apparently Yamaha had the balance and engine position wrong and the guys with engine relocation kits (Dubach) were saying that was a major improvement.

When the second generation reversed engine model ( 2014 YZ450F) was allegedly "fixed", I bought one after riding the YZ250F which shares the same basic chassis and bodywork. I loved the YZ250F, it was a little fat at the gas-tank, but handled well and the engine was great.

The '14 model had a terrible transition from off throttle to on throttle, a ton of engine braking and a ton of sudden torque. It really upset the chassis in flat or off-camber low speed turns.
Also, that model felt like it was made of rubber under hard acceleration out of rutted corners. I believe the chassis was flawed and the extremely powerful engine exposed those flaws. I sold that clunker after 6 months of trying all kinds of stuff to make it work. Jumped on my buddy's '13 KX450F and felt confident immediately.

Even thought that previous model felt like a fat pig, if you measured the frame rails, it was actually narrow compared to other bikes that don't get those complaints. The trouble was with the shape of the shrouds and the shape of the fuel tank. Where your boots, knees, leg contact the bike that shape made the bike feel wide.

The '19 YZ250F feels amazing on the track and feels narrow to me. The suspension is almost perfect and the chassis handles great. I'm keen to ride the new model of the 450F, but I won't spend the money on another YZ450F until I've ridden one back to back with the Husky and the Kawi.

I rode the Husky Rockstar bike yesterday and it feels as narrow and light in the corners as my 250 two-stroke. It also has substantially less engine braking than any other 450F I've been on (without an auto clutch).

Knowing that the new generation of YZ450F weighs about 3000 lbs more than the Husky/KTM and Kawi and that Yamaha seems to have this low-end grunt / heavy engine braking feel to all of their 450cc motorcycles for the past 20 years, I cannot imagine their bike feels as light as the Husky/KTM and the Kawasaki. I really think Yamaha's engine philosophy is their biggest problem in the 450F model, engine braking makes a bike feel heavy and bad on/off throttle transition upsets even the best chassis.

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4/15/2019 9:20 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/15/2019 9:26 AM

mxb2 wrote:

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

mxb2 wrote:

Barcias getting paid as a title contender. Kroc has had some bad luck, his fault and other riders fault . Shit happens,. Pretty sure hrc doesnt like excuses. Lol.

I doubt he is paid as a title contender. He was on a fill-in ride when they extended his contract.

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4/15/2019 9:29 AM

WheelieNelson wrote:

I love my 450. So does everyone i know on yzf. The factory team has just been a joke since the mid 2000's

Same here...and I came off KTM's....I still love the orange breed but the engine and suspension on my yzf is smooth and smoother....so easy to go fast on.

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4/15/2019 9:29 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

mxb2 wrote:

Barcias getting paid as a title contender. Kroc has had some bad luck, his fault and other riders fault . Shit happens,. Pretty sure hrc doesnt like excuses. Lol.

Dirty Points wrote:

I doubt he is paid as a title contender. He was on a fill-in ride when they extended his contract.

He is yamahas top dude.. he isnt hurting for money lol.

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4/15/2019 9:30 AM

mxb2 wrote:

Barcias getting paid as a title contender. Kroc has had some bad luck, his fault and other riders fault . Shit happens,. Pretty sure hrc doesnt like excuses. Lol.

Dirty Points wrote:

I doubt he is paid as a title contender. He was on a fill-in ride when they extended his contract.

mxb2 wrote:

He is yamahas top dude.. he isnt hurting for money lol.

I don't think he is the top paid dude on that team.

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4/15/2019 9:34 AM

Engine braking can easily be tuned out with the app, I was using TP's connected feel map last week and was surprised by the lack of engine braking, caught me off guard in the first 2 corners. As far as handling goes, my 19 450 is the best handling 4 stroke I've ever owned. It's super stable in a straight line and corners well in ruts or flat corners. I've even taken it on a flat track for fun and you can get pretty crazy, even with the knobby tires. The front end feel/feedback that has been missing on the Aluminium framed Yamaha's is improved dramatically on the 19's, and they did it while managing to keep the comfort that they are known for.

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4/15/2019 9:39 AM

Forty wrote:

Ask Webb

Webb has said more than on e, it wasnt the bike. It was his training. He liked the bike

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4/15/2019 9:39 AM

Forty wrote:

Ask Webb

Barcia owned Webb last year. So Barcia would be leading SX points right now if on a KTM? I don't think so. It's not the bike.

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4/15/2019 9:46 AM

ga_pike wrote:

I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them as we do KTM and Kawi. However, the 250's seem to be very good bikes with top guys contending each week.

What's the difference? Is it the riders? Or is there something "wrong" with the current Yamaha 450?

The bike has won multiple shootouts in 2019. What you are hearing is coming from KTM owners and random haters. The bike is good.

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4/15/2019 9:56 AM

ga_pike wrote:

I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them as we do KTM and Kawi. However, the 250's seem to be very good bikes with top guys contending each week.

What's the difference? Is it the riders? Or is there something "wrong" with the current Yamaha 450?

cwtoyota wrote:

I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F, but have ridden the '19 YZ250F and all the older YZ450F models.
TLDR: My opinion is that Yamaha's engine tuning philosophy is why their 450cc motorcycle feels heavy and slow.


When the 2010 YZ450 (first reversed engine model) came out, I rode one and it was a terrible chassis.
Any other motorcycle felt better entering corners than that model. Apparently Yamaha had the balance and engine position wrong and the guys with engine relocation kits (Dubach) were saying that was a major improvement.

When the second generation reversed engine model ( 2014 YZ450F) was allegedly "fixed", I bought one after riding the YZ250F which shares the same basic chassis and bodywork. I loved the YZ250F, it was a little fat at the gas-tank, but handled well and the engine was great.

The '14 model had a terrible transition from off throttle to on throttle, a ton of engine braking and a ton of sudden torque. It really upset the chassis in flat or off-camber low speed turns.
Also, that model felt like it was made of rubber under hard acceleration out of rutted corners. I believe the chassis was flawed and the extremely powerful engine exposed those flaws. I sold that clunker after 6 months of trying all kinds of stuff to make it work. Jumped on my buddy's '13 KX450F and felt confident immediately.

Even thought that previous model felt like a fat pig, if you measured the frame rails, it was actually narrow compared to other bikes that don't get those complaints. The trouble was with the shape of the shrouds and the shape of the fuel tank. Where your boots, knees, leg contact the bike that shape made the bike feel wide.

The '19 YZ250F feels amazing on the track and feels narrow to me. The suspension is almost perfect and the chassis handles great. I'm keen to ride the new model of the 450F, but I won't spend the money on another YZ450F until I've ridden one back to back with the Husky and the Kawi.

I rode the Husky Rockstar bike yesterday and it feels as narrow and light in the corners as my 250 two-stroke. It also has substantially less engine braking than any other 450F I've been on (without an auto clutch).

Knowing that the new generation of YZ450F weighs about 3000 lbs more than the Husky/KTM and Kawi and that Yamaha seems to have this low-end grunt / heavy engine braking feel to all of their 450cc motorcycles for the past 20 years, I cannot imagine their bike feels as light as the Husky/KTM and the Kawasaki. I really think Yamaha's engine philosophy is their biggest problem in the 450F model, engine braking makes a bike feel heavy and bad on/off throttle transition upsets even the best chassis.

"I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F"

You should stop right there.

I rode the 2017 YZF 450 and disliked it a lot. Then i rode the 18 and got blown away and ended up buying one a few weeks later. The current gen YZF is a huge step forward compared to the old bikes, especially for smaller riders like me (175 cm).

You might dislike the new gen Yamaha too. But the step they took was so big that i think it's BS to use the old ones as reference. I mean, nobody are using the 2014 KTM as a reference in 2019?

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4/15/2019 10:04 AM

I had an 18 and 19 yz450f, then a friend told me to take his new kx450 on the track and wow! I got luck and sold my Yamaha the next day on Craigslist $6900, and bought a Kawasaki. The Yamaha did feel better than the 2017 Ktm factory edition I had, especially the suspension. The Kawasaki just felt so narrow, and light, and I was instantly comfortable in a half a lap. The power is very smooth and consistent, no abrupt hits. It made me feel way more aggressive on the track, and less energy to ride. I went back out on my Yamaha, and that was it, sold. To each their own.

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4/15/2019 10:05 AM

Forty wrote:

Ask Webb

Dtat720 wrote:

Webb has said more than on e, it wasnt the bike. It was his training. He liked the bike

True, when he was asked in a post race press conference earlier this year what the difference was between this year and the prior two years...he responded "what do you think?" Initially I thought he was eluding to the bike, but it could just as well have meant that he was referring to his new program with Aldon. Because since then he's given a couple interviews where he had the opportunity to blame the bike and he did not, in fact he was pretty complimentary of the 18 as I recall.

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4/15/2019 10:06 AM

mxb2 wrote:

Barcia is getting big $$. And he is a race,title contender. Shit happens. Ask hrc. About kroc. No wins, paid more than barcia.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

mxb2 wrote:

Yep pay cut, maybe new teammate.

Kenny has an established pay scale for 2 more years, if he stays at Honda. There’s no pay cut, unless he ends up leaving... he signed a 5 year deal, with the last 2 as an option, from what I understand.

New team mate is possible, but there’s a few things that will determine this. Hopefully Cole can shake the bad luck and prove he can finish where he is capable !

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4/15/2019 10:12 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/15/2019 10:43 AM

The thing is that the 250F is really great. The front wheel feel is insane, it's well balance, and the suspension is stiff but smooth. Plus, the motor is super strong, particularly the Star Racing bikes. Great bike + good team = up front a lot.

There is nothing "wrong" with the 450, it's just not as good relative to other 450s and the 250 is to 250s. Moreover, I think 450's are harder to set up, and the Factory Yamaha team isn't known for being the best at this. I knew a factory Yamaha rider who tested suspension all week at Glen Helen and then the team left the final version at the race shop for the Glen Helen National...Solid bike + okay team = not up front a lot.

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4/15/2019 10:12 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm a Barcia fan, but I don't see him as a title contender. Race winner? Definitely! I just don't put him in the title chase sadly.

KRoc has had shit luck since he got on the Honda, but isn't word going around that HRC is going to give him a pay cut?

mxb2 wrote:

Yep pay cut, maybe new teammate.

langhammx wrote:

Kenny has an established pay scale for 2 more years, if he stays at Honda. There’s no pay cut, unless he ends up leaving... he signed a 5 year deal, with the last 2 as an option, from what I understand.

New team mate is possible, but there’s a few things that will determine this. Hopefully Cole can shake the bad luck and prove he can finish where he is capable !

My bad, guess i worded it wrong. His final year will be less than previous.

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