DC's 2-stroke answer...

cpj36
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10/16/2009 10:54am
The 2 stk is our COT, Nascar let the auto manufacturers walk decades ago, where would that sport be if they had instead kissed their ass and done whatever was required to keep them involved?

NASCAR Car Of Tomorrow was designed from the ground up to be safer, more competitive and cheaper for the race teams.

Of course they bitched and moaned but lived with it.

It comes down to this," says Dan Davis, director of Ford Racing. "To be credible, you have to win, both races and championships. Building up that credibility influences a customer to the point that when they are ready to buy, they're thinking Ford." It doesn't matter, Davis says, whether it's a Ford Fusion or a Five Hundred or a truck or a minivan. The credibility is for the brand, not the model.

Dodge and Chevy officials have made cuts in their racing programs but still spend millions. Companies do not reveal their NASCAR budgets but De Lorenzo estimates Chrysler spends $45 million, Ford $60 million and GM $90 million a year on marketing and competition. De Lorenzo said GM's figure peaked at an estimated $120-$140 million.

That's a lot of money and the auto industry didn't start their own series so they could do what they wanted and neither would Japan.

10/16/2009 10:55am
wait wait wait. Hold up! Team186 Isn't this the same guy that said his son didn't want to race 2 strokes anymore? Let me go find out what was said. I'm confused again.
agency399
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10/16/2009 10:59am
Void Main wrote:
No.

Reason: 250 vs 250 isn't fair.

That would imply that 125 vs 250 and 250 vs 450 is fair.
Amen Team Green.......

What a shitty position for DC to put himself in. He tries and when it doesn’t work (for logical reasons) people pretty much say he is the devil.

Man that guy has done more for this sport than anyone else I can think of. I don’t know him, just been reading his mag. since it came out and racerhead every Friday for the last god knows how many years.

Sometimes things are simply out of your control no matter how much you want the change. But it doesn’t stop people from assuming you have the worst intentions even when it’s the complete opposite.

The pussy and puppet comments really are out of line here. It takes some serious balls to take on what he has taken on……. Flame on!!!!
TeamGreen
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10/16/2009 11:00am
Yo...186... I get it, now!

DC is responsible for all the economic decissions and progress of the average privateer.

DC is responsible for the change, by the OEMs, from 2t to 4t.

DC is responsible for all things AMA, AMA Pro, DMG, Feld, OEM...etc. Shouldn't we add F.I.M., Youth-Stream, F.I.A., DORNA, D.O.D., D.O.E., C.B.O., G.A.O., C.D.C. ...and the U.N., too?

I'm kinda pissed at United! Should we add them?

DC is responsible for your personal frustration and lack of ability to do anything other than bitch like a frustrated little man on the web, too...?

Oh, o.k.

Now I get it.

How's that workin' for ya?

The Shop

10/16/2009 11:00am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
Ok, Team186. Seems like you are pissing DC off just to act like you are a 2 stroke lover. But nope.


Alex Hunter #186
"Good stuff, glad I could help...

1st off the 05 250T blew up , well because it was yellow...end of story. Lots of oil in gas, but RM cranks and sand tracks don't mix....RM cranks and 1/2 season with a guy that pins throttle to stops don't mix. Yes the kid is fast and can rip on a 250T, but got tired of having to ride so WFO to keep up with 450's, so we joined the club, that was 05. He made less ER trips after that....and got faster. The 2T's got dusty....

We went through 7 green 250F's in 06, 07, 08 and one 450, but only rode 250F at nationals. No bike problems, engine-wise but broken wheels, subframes, smashed airboxes, 1 broken swingarm, lots of corkscrewed exhausts, you know the stuff that makes you buy another bike every 6 months. Our "Race" bike actually held up pretty good each year. This year he rode 250F again, but back to blue and yes we still also have a 450 and 125 and 250T and a few 250F sitting around....actually you might be right, more money than brains....my bike gets rode 1/3 throttle every other month or so, but I still like a new bike in garage every year, just becuase that is what I have done since college.

I guess choice is good, but neither me or my son would never dream of racing a 250T again, knowing what a well prepped 250F can provide. And who want to to ride an 05 in 2010....I want an "oh-ten", now in 09.....we ain't no vintage riders.....

I just called home and aked my wife "is Alex is out practicing", I asked her how muddy it was, she said pretty bad, then I asked her what bike he was riding, she said is was blue and looked new....had #186 on it......

There you go "new and blue"....one vote from an actual AMA privateer with no money and obviously no brains...."
Shawn142
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10/16/2009 11:03am
There are some serious fly by night fans here. Team186, happy trails along with anyone else who feels like complaining about something that has been in place for years now. I'm here to watch the best racers on anything the OEMs make them ride because I love the sport and racing. And don't give me any crap about how 2-strokes were better for racing. MC and RC had most of their dominate years on them. James blew everyone on a 4-stroke out of the water on a 125. If you love 2-strokes go buy and ride them and be happy for once in your damn lives.
TeamGreen
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10/16/2009 11:05am
I'm still laughing, though!

Have a Good Day!

Manny


bvm111
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10/16/2009 11:06am
Seems to me that it would be easy enough to add a 125cc or 150cc 15-17 year old regional east west class to the program to allow the up and comers some where to hone their skills while waiting to turn 18 and move up to the 250f class. Maybe limit it to 15 to 20 minute motos if time constraints are of concern for the Saturday format? Seems like an easy enough compromise, you could run them instead of the women’s class that, although I enjoy watching, seemed to have questionable results this season running at the same venue as the regular pro class.

Just an idea instead of getting all hostile against DC!
TeamGreen
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10/16/2009 11:15am
Ok, Team186. Seems like you are pissing DC off just to act like you are a 2 stroke lover. But nope. Alex Hunter #186 "Good stuff...
Ok, Team186. Seems like you are pissing DC off just to act like you are a 2 stroke lover. But nope.


Alex Hunter #186
"Good stuff, glad I could help...

1st off the 05 250T blew up , well because it was yellow...end of story. Lots of oil in gas, but RM cranks and sand tracks don't mix....RM cranks and 1/2 season with a guy that pins throttle to stops don't mix. Yes the kid is fast and can rip on a 250T, but got tired of having to ride so WFO to keep up with 450's, so we joined the club, that was 05. He made less ER trips after that....and got faster. The 2T's got dusty....

We went through 7 green 250F's in 06, 07, 08 and one 450, but only rode 250F at nationals. No bike problems, engine-wise but broken wheels, subframes, smashed airboxes, 1 broken swingarm, lots of corkscrewed exhausts, you know the stuff that makes you buy another bike every 6 months. Our "Race" bike actually held up pretty good each year. This year he rode 250F again, but back to blue and yes we still also have a 450 and 125 and 250T and a few 250F sitting around....actually you might be right, more money than brains....my bike gets rode 1/3 throttle every other month or so, but I still like a new bike in garage every year, just becuase that is what I have done since college.

I guess choice is good, but neither me or my son would never dream of racing a 250T again, knowing what a well prepped 250F can provide. And who want to to ride an 05 in 2010....I want an "oh-ten", now in 09.....we ain't no vintage riders.....

I just called home and aked my wife "is Alex is out practicing", I asked her how muddy it was, she said pretty bad, then I asked her what bike he was riding, she said is was blue and looked new....had #186 on it......

There you go "new and blue"....one vote from an actual AMA privateer with no money and obviously no brains...."
Bwaaaahahahahaha!

Oh, NO HE DI'N'T!?!

Well...RMs and Sand-Tracks don't mix?

Big D and LaPorte don't TRY to destroy their RM's in the Dez ALL THE TIME? And I mean ALL-THE-TIME!

Really?

So, Rodney, Rick Ryan and the Nor-Cal boys DIDN'T SCHOOL ALL COMERS at Sand Hill and Marysville all those years? On Zooks!

R.C. doesn't, STILL, rip his own Sand-Track on an R.M.? (Not as "Works" as you'd think, either!)

R U out of your head?!

U really shoud see someone about these "Anger-Issues".

I'm jus' sayin',

(Yo, miedos-1, THX!)
Later.
race
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10/16/2009 11:21am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
DC wrote:
Guys, sorry, I am just the messenger in this case. Not one of the five OEMs, including KTM and Yamaha, want to head this way right...
Guys, sorry, I am just the messenger in this case. Not one of the five OEMs, including KTM and Yamaha, want to head this way right now. Nor does Supercross or apparently the GPs, just some of you and me -- but I will accept the blame for not getting this through. I didn't make four-strokes, and I can't save two-strokes, I just hold races that almost all of the race teams and top riders find worthwhile to participate in and support.


Do you want the teams and the top riders to leave now? I don't. So we are working on homologation rules and requirements for a few other options, but I now realize that it's not wise to bring those things up in a public forum until they either happen or don't.


For what it's worth, in the two things that MX Sports and Racer Productions does have that bigger say in, which is Loretta Lynn's and the GNCC Series, the two-strokes are there. I'm doing all I can.


As for the "pussy" and "puppet" comments, that's why most of the powers-that-be don't make decisions based on message board threads. But feel free to say what you want about me here, I'm realizing more than ever it comes with the territory of accepting responsibility in very uncertain times.


DC

MX Sports


The economy is a big road block right now. We know you'll get it done eventually.


As for the trolls here ...








Forget it Davey, it's the net.

Wink




ando
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10/16/2009 11:27am
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field.

Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a lot of time, effort and money to a race program where they know there is a good chance they'll never be fighting for wins simply because the other teams chose the option (2st or 4st) for that year that turned out to have an advantage.

And there is no way that anyone will come up with a formula, displacement or otherwise, that will ensure parity. The two powerplants produce such different power/torque characteristics that one or the other will always have an advantage.

So then you are left with two options - endless rule changes to try and achieve parity, or the commitment to one engine configuration (and therefore the death of the other).

We are at that juncture now, and for better or worse I think the choice has already been made, because it's unlikely most OEM's are going to want to continue to build and develop two bikes for the same purpose.

Bear in mind I'm talking about PRO racing here.
Void Main
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10/16/2009 11:45am
It defies all logic. It's obvious a lot of people *want* 2-Trokes based on these forums and polls (like the one I've been running for a few years now in my sig). Why would the manufactures try to sell us something that we don't want (4-Trokes) and deprive us of what we do want (2-Trokes)? There is no chance in hell that I will ever buy a 4-Troke. I have been a big fan of Yamaha and have been on YZ250s for about 10 years now but I haven't seen one on my dealer's floor in 3 years so that's how long it's been since I've upgraded. I'm going to have to upgrade soon and it looks like I'll be switching to another brand this time around, a brand that puts a little more effort into the 2-Trokes.
10/16/2009 11:48am
lostboy819 wrote:
Bottom line is that the big four run MX and SX and DC does what they say,end of story and I can live with that.
BobbyM wrote:
no shit? let's see some proof...seriously. does DC have 4 red phones direct to japan and 1 to euroland or does that one matter? how do...
no shit? let's see some proof...seriously. does DC have 4 red phones direct to japan and 1 to euroland or does that one matter? how do they do it? when yamaha came out with the 4 banger were the other 3 japanese makers behind it or against? when did they all collude to take over the nats? does monster have anything to do with who wins a sx? do they try?

let's hear it lostboy... i am interested in the evidence why you say DC is a puppet.

is DC gonna cut his own dick off cuz he wants to bring back three wheelers to but the oems said no way yet he soldiers through just to get an atv series going?

what about ktm..are they players too?
lostboy819 wrote:
I never said he was a puppet I said the big four call the shots, next time sober up before quoting things I didnt say. This...
I never said he was a puppet I said the big four call the shots, next time sober up before quoting things I didnt say. This is just another reason you get clicked on a weekly basis because you are too stupid to even read the quote you posted. Now im sure you will go off on one of drug induced drunkin rants and bring up magoo and Lacky but the bottom line is that your gas is getting old and maybe its time you just shut the F up you whiny prick.
Hey Bobby is this enough proof? right from DC himself, Have your wife read it to you so maybe you can understand or sober up and read it. Like I said before the OEMs run things and I accept it why cant you?

"Guys, sorry, I am just the messenger in this case. Not one of the five OEMs, including KTM and Yamaha, want to head this way right now. Nor does Supercross or apparently the GPs, just some of you and me"



"Do you want the teams and the top riders to leave now? I don't. So we are working on homologation rules and requirements for a few other options",
10/16/2009 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
Atleast that was a bit less confrontational Team186. As far as this question, "If it's OK to race 250 vs 250 in two of those productions DC mentioned, why not the third??"

I did want to ask the same question, but didn't want to be the first. I don't seem to notice the big 4 packing up their toys and taking them home. I actually was watching the GNCC's quite often last year, when I thought I might try to make a comeback. I noticed more OEM's out at those like Husky etc. Very interesting that it opens up doors, and didn't seem to close many. I will admit thought, I do have a feeling that a 250 2 stroke ridden by Jason Law, would put a smack down on any and all racers on a 250F. JMHO. I think that is what DC is talking about. Offroad is somewhat different than MX. The LL's races, the top riders are put on 4 strokes, and the one's who are on 2 strokes are basic racers, not the top of the heap. In Pro MX, every team wants to win, so obviously, someone might break promises and show up and clean the house???
sec114
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10/16/2009 12:12pm
how about durring a 250f shootout throw in the mix some of the 2 stroke competition like ktm150, ktm200, and a yamaha yz125 with a 144 kit on it?
DrSweden
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10/16/2009 12:15pm
DC wrote:
Well Doc, If they have to race against bikes they can't beat or don't sell (or don't market) why compete? Two-strokes are not what they make...
Well Doc,

If they have to race against bikes they can't beat or don't sell (or don't market) why compete? Two-strokes are not what they make (or not what they're focused on) so why hire all of these riders and mechanics and technicians and engineers, do all that development and investment, put this big rigs on the road and turn around and race against bikes that are STILL faster?

So yes, I guess it's safe to say that the idea that all of the factory teams might pull out is a concern for most of the people in the sport, most of the people working in the paddock, and a development that has not bode well for either AMA Dirt Track or AMA Superbike...

I tried, I came up short, I am moving on.

DC
MX Sports


Ok, I honestly didn't know the OEM thought the smokers would be such a threat in the 250F class (the 450F will dominate any bike I'm sure) and I kind of doubt it?

So you are saying the OEM feels the 250F is the lesser bike then? That's kind of big news isn't it? That's an argument we have been discussing for years now, finally settled via the OEM!?

If that's the case what kind of rider/privateer would beat the factory riders on their 250F on those? I have some serious problems seeing a guy like Pourcel gets beaten by MrX on a smoker, especially when I think of how RV managed to bitch slap the complete 450F class (RC included) on his 250F in MXDN 2008.

Yeah, that privateer guy on that 06 CR250 is really dangerous? LOL!

Make no sense? But maybe I'm missing something here?

Still, I'm glad you replied.
10/16/2009 12:21pm Edited Date/Time 10/16/2009 12:23pm
DR. Sweden. A Jason Lawrence type. Not really stuck to a OEM and not really stuck to rules. WWF smackdown. :-) That's what they are sckeerd of
sec114
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10/16/2009 12:27pm
i just started riding again last summer after 11 years off a bike. well i got a 2004 yz125 and at first i received almost nothing but crap for it; u know "old fart on an old and slow bike what a joke"!! and yes i was slow at first (old ladies in wheelchairs was passing me kind of slow)but i have picked up speed and all. now i almost get cheered on (by mostly mx dads my age) on practice days when i am hanging with jr on his 250f. and sometimes the moon and stars in this universe line up just right and i am lucky enough to make an inside line pass (taking advantage of the nimbleness and quick turning125 nature). and basically jr is usually stunned; because all he has ever heard of was how slow and crappy a 2 stroke 125 was.
andymoto
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10/16/2009 12:38pm
Void Main wrote:
It defies all logic. It's obvious a lot of people *want* 2-Trokes based on these forums and polls (like the one I've been running for a...
It defies all logic. It's obvious a lot of people *want* 2-Trokes based on these forums and polls (like the one I've been running for a few years now in my sig). Why would the manufactures try to sell us something that we don't want (4-Trokes) and deprive us of what we do want (2-Trokes)? There is no chance in hell that I will ever buy a 4-Troke. I have been a big fan of Yamaha and have been on YZ250s for about 10 years now but I haven't seen one on my dealer's floor in 3 years so that's how long it's been since I've upgraded. I'm going to have to upgrade soon and it looks like I'll be switching to another brand this time around, a brand that puts a little more effort into the 2-Trokes.
Good luck on your new KTM. 250 SX or 300 XC?
Void Main
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10/16/2009 12:58pm
Void Main wrote:
It defies all logic. It's obvious a lot of people *want* 2-Trokes based on these forums and polls (like the one I've been running for a...
It defies all logic. It's obvious a lot of people *want* 2-Trokes based on these forums and polls (like the one I've been running for a few years now in my sig). Why would the manufactures try to sell us something that we don't want (4-Trokes) and deprive us of what we do want (2-Trokes)? There is no chance in hell that I will ever buy a 4-Troke. I have been a big fan of Yamaha and have been on YZ250s for about 10 years now but I haven't seen one on my dealer's floor in 3 years so that's how long it's been since I've upgraded. I'm going to have to upgrade soon and it looks like I'll be switching to another brand this time around, a brand that puts a little more effort into the 2-Trokes.
andymoto wrote:
Good luck on your new KTM. 250 SX or 300 XC?
I'm thinking either 300 XC-W or EC300 Gas Gas. Husky wouldn't be out of the question either.
mattbmx63
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10/16/2009 1:05pm
A 4 stroke has a different power curve. It makes more torque compared to the 2 stroke. The double displacement theory is flawed in that a 4 stroke inherently by design, has to overcome the losses of many more moving parts.
WhKnuckle
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10/16/2009 1:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
DC is still a pussy. He runs the series, he can make the rules. As long as the rules aren't just ridiculous, the factories will play. If the AMA would have had some guts, we'd still have 500cc two strokes racing out there.

Now, the idea of 350 four strokes is probably a good one, but that's a rule that the factories would have to agree on - it's no good making a rule that specifies a bike nobody builds. But 250 two strokes are still built by two factories and the others could and would build them if they were in demand. And it's likely that 250Fs would still be competitive against 250Ts anyway. Why ask the factories? If they don't want to play, let them stay home.

This is just another case of pandering to a few powerful people at the expense of the masses. 250 two strokes are probably the least expensive, most fun bikes out there, but if the only place to race them is against 450s, they're going to go away. And if someone like DC doesn't man up and make sure that doesn't happen, that's what's going to happen.

Your kids are going to grow up racing high-strung 150 four strokes, graduate to a high-strung 250 four stroke, then wind up on 450s with a lethal combination of power, weight and high CG. Only wealthy people will participate in the sport at all because the cost is going to be outrageous. And the noise will bedevil the sport and close riding areas. And all the time, the best motocross machine ever built will stop being sold because those with the power to make the rules pussed out and let the factories tell them what to do.
cpj36
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10/16/2009 1:50pm
DC wrote:
Well Doc, If they have to race against bikes they can't beat or don't sell (or don't market) why compete? Two-strokes are not what they make...
Well Doc,

If they have to race against bikes they can't beat or don't sell (or don't market) why compete? Two-strokes are not what they make (or not what they're focused on) so why hire all of these riders and mechanics and technicians and engineers, do all that development and investment, put this big rigs on the road and turn around and race against bikes that are STILL faster?

So yes, I guess it's safe to say that the idea that all of the factory teams might pull out is a concern for most of the people in the sport, most of the people working in the paddock, and a development that has not bode well for either AMA Dirt Track or AMA Superbike...

I tried, I came up short, I am moving on.

DC
MX Sports


DrSweden wrote:
Ok, I honestly didn't know the OEM thought the smokers would be such a threat in the 250F class (the 450F will dominate any bike I'm...
Ok, I honestly didn't know the OEM thought the smokers would be such a threat in the 250F class (the 450F will dominate any bike I'm sure) and I kind of doubt it?

So you are saying the OEM feels the 250F is the lesser bike then? That's kind of big news isn't it? That's an argument we have been discussing for years now, finally settled via the OEM!?

If that's the case what kind of rider/privateer would beat the factory riders on their 250F on those? I have some serious problems seeing a guy like Pourcel gets beaten by MrX on a smoker, especially when I think of how RV managed to bitch slap the complete 450F class (RC included) on his 250F in MXDN 2008.

Yeah, that privateer guy on that 06 CR250 is really dangerous? LOL!

Make no sense? But maybe I'm missing something here?

Still, I'm glad you replied.
RV bitch slapped the world and all he needed to do it was RC's gate pick, RC crash, a U turn where the first turn should have been and an open track ahead of him. 250f vs 250 was never an argument, joke maybe as comparing the two is pretty funny. I will say this, in the mud at Budds those 50K 250f's with the worlds best riders on board looked as fast or faster than the 2 stks on those muddy uphills.
MX7MX
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10/16/2009 2:30pm
ando wrote:
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field. Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a...
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field.

Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a lot of time, effort and money to a race program where they know there is a good chance they'll never be fighting for wins simply because the other teams chose the option (2st or 4st) for that year that turned out to have an advantage.

And there is no way that anyone will come up with a formula, displacement or otherwise, that will ensure parity. The two powerplants produce such different power/torque characteristics that one or the other will always have an advantage.

So then you are left with two options - endless rule changes to try and achieve parity, or the commitment to one engine configuration (and therefore the death of the other).

We are at that juncture now, and for better or worse I think the choice has already been made, because it's unlikely most OEM's are going to want to continue to build and develop two bikes for the same purpose.

Bear in mind I'm talking about PRO racing here.
Now I usually always have something to say......but Ando pretty much summed it up!! COMPLETELY! I have even stated many times, ONE or the other, don't mix the classes. Ando you are completely SPOT on and thats coming from a 4 stroke fanatic! Either way, there will never be a formula that will work. Everyone went to the 250 vs 250 but forgot all about how the bikes made the power and THAT is more important and significant than the number of cc's the engine has.
typ2vw159
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10/16/2009 2:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
typ2vw159 wrote:
So you all going to cry like bytches when thay get rid of the four stroke and replace it with the electric dirtbike. And to all...
So you all going to cry like bytches when thay get rid of the four stroke and replace it with the electric dirtbike. And to all the people that say are you smoking weed.Yes and i bought a new bike with weed money so ya it was a free 250f and a 450f.
IF DC WAS NOT OUT THERE WE WOULD BE RIDING BIG WHEELS!!!!Factory big wheels
2-stroke-oil will come back! It will run the motor that charges the battery on your EDB!!!
MONEY TALKS!!!!
loftyair
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10/16/2009 2:49pm
ando wrote:
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field. Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a...
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field.

Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a lot of time, effort and money to a race program where they know there is a good chance they'll never be fighting for wins simply because the other teams chose the option (2st or 4st) for that year that turned out to have an advantage.

And there is no way that anyone will come up with a formula, displacement or otherwise, that will ensure parity. The two powerplants produce such different power/torque characteristics that one or the other will always have an advantage.

So then you are left with two options - endless rule changes to try and achieve parity, or the commitment to one engine configuration (and therefore the death of the other).

We are at that juncture now, and for better or worse I think the choice has already been made, because it's unlikely most OEM's are going to want to continue to build and develop two bikes for the same purpose.

Bear in mind I'm talking about PRO racing here.
MX7MX wrote:
Now I usually always have something to say......but Ando pretty much summed it up!! COMPLETELY! I have even stated many times, ONE or the other, don't...
Now I usually always have something to say......but Ando pretty much summed it up!! COMPLETELY! I have even stated many times, ONE or the other, don't mix the classes. Ando you are completely SPOT on and thats coming from a 4 stroke fanatic! Either way, there will never be a formula that will work. Everyone went to the 250 vs 250 but forgot all about how the bikes made the power and THAT is more important and significant than the number of cc's the engine has.
That's exactly why you get rid of the rules concerning strokes or cc's. Let the riders choose which bike they will go fastest on that day. Why make them ride the same bike? They choose different tires, suspension settings, ergonomics, chassis handling, and power delivery. I would like to see 500cc 4's race against 200cc 2's, and 300cc 4's against 350cc 2's. Or any other 'size' or 'stroke', now that's called making it fair.
ando
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10/16/2009 3:13pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
ando wrote:
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field. Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a...
Bottom line - lack of parity and an even playing field.

Not many teams, whether factory, factory supported, satellite, are going to want to commit a lot of time, effort and money to a race program where they know there is a good chance they'll never be fighting for wins simply because the other teams chose the option (2st or 4st) for that year that turned out to have an advantage.

And there is no way that anyone will come up with a formula, displacement or otherwise, that will ensure parity. The two powerplants produce such different power/torque characteristics that one or the other will always have an advantage.

So then you are left with two options - endless rule changes to try and achieve parity, or the commitment to one engine configuration (and therefore the death of the other).

We are at that juncture now, and for better or worse I think the choice has already been made, because it's unlikely most OEM's are going to want to continue to build and develop two bikes for the same purpose.

Bear in mind I'm talking about PRO racing here.
MX7MX wrote:
Now I usually always have something to say......but Ando pretty much summed it up!! COMPLETELY! I have even stated many times, ONE or the other, don't...
Now I usually always have something to say......but Ando pretty much summed it up!! COMPLETELY! I have even stated many times, ONE or the other, don't mix the classes. Ando you are completely SPOT on and thats coming from a 4 stroke fanatic! Either way, there will never be a formula that will work. Everyone went to the 250 vs 250 but forgot all about how the bikes made the power and THAT is more important and significant than the number of cc's the engine has.
loftyair wrote:
That's exactly why you get rid of the rules concerning strokes or cc's. Let the riders choose which bike they will go fastest on that day...
That's exactly why you get rid of the rules concerning strokes or cc's. Let the riders choose which bike they will go fastest on that day. Why make them ride the same bike? They choose different tires, suspension settings, ergonomics, chassis handling, and power delivery. I would like to see 500cc 4's race against 200cc 2's, and 300cc 4's against 350cc 2's. Or any other 'size' or 'stroke', now that's called making it fair.
Not according to the governing bodies of just about any major motorsport formula in the world.

Your suggestion would make for an interesting one off race, but over the course of a season the serious competitors would quickly work out which displacement/stroke had the advantage and soon everyone would be running that because to not do so would place you at a disadvantage.

Again I want to reiterate that I'm talking about PRO racing, where costs are less of a factor, and teams/sponsors/OEM's are looking for return on investment.

As I understand it you can already race two strokes more (?) competitively in amateur classes. If so then I don't see the problem?

I don't really buy the "need to have what the pro's are racing" argument. You can't buy MotoGP bikes, World Rally Cars, NASCARs (even World Superbikes are heavily modified). As someone posted above about the NASCAR example, it's much more about BRAND recognition than model recognition.
ando
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10/16/2009 3:17pm
And for an opinion on the whole level playing field thing from a respected team manager, listen to Mitch Payton's podcast on Racer X from earlier this year. His main concern as a race team manager was not 2-stroke or 4-stroke but being able to compete on a even keel (mainly because Kawasaki didn't have a 250f for a number of years).
WhKnuckle
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10/16/2009 3:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
The sport is defined by what pros ride. Certain amateur races may allow equal cc racing, but as long as pros race all four strokes, that's what factories are going to build and that's what people are going to buy. Allowing equal cc racing at LLs is great, but those riders are trying to break into the pro ranks, and they're going to generally ride what the pros ride.

As long as you can't race a 250T competitively in pro racing, the 250T will continue to disappear. Which, conveniently, is what the factories want to happen, thus their resistance to allowing equal cc racing in the Nationals.

It's not a matter of nostalgic vibes - it's a matter of a 250T being the best bike for lots of riders - it's cheaper to buy, cheaper to race, cheaper to maintain, and performs better than a 250F in many ways. To allow it to disappear because organizers don't want to tell the factories what the rules are, and allow the factories to dictate the rules to them, is a disservice to the sport. If the AMA would have stood up to the factories in the early 90s, we'd be able to go down to our local dealer and buy a brand new 500 two stroke with the latest chassis and suspension. Wouldn't that be nice?
Tiki
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Fantasy
10/16/2009 3:28pm
How come of all the people bitching and whining in this thread, not one of them has offered to race and qualify in a national on a two stroke?

Post a reply to: DC's 2-stroke answer...

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