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Than keep 2 strokes separate too. If a 2 stroke has to be a different CC to be on a level playing field as a 4 stroke ,the electric can be tuned to a similar degree. Running separate classes will just kill off whatever bikes are less profitable. Unless You see a giant influx of money to support 30% more classes.
If 4 strokes exist purely for shared components and to maximize profit. Electric puts that model on steroids. And before people start to cry about the aftermarkets dying off. Take a quick search for Suren aftermarket stuff. There are some regular moto companies that have many times more E moto parts in the catalogs than they have for ICE bikes.
Many people thought that 4 strokes would kill off PC and FMF. Well how did that work out? $ stroke pipes are easier to make and likely more profitable. KTM the brand that had the most aftermarket support tried killing off that segment and forcing people to buy their power parts only. Then they couldn't keep up and it backfired on them. The manufacturers and aftermarket need each other. They build bikes for the average person and the aftermarket allows people to make them fit the unaverage person in whichever way that is. Speed, size, or type of riding.
Which brings me to a surron sized electric class. That would bring in new money. A majority of the people racing Stark Vargs are people who would be racing an ICE bike. So its diluting the market to add an electric class for those bikes. Run them in open and age classes. Limit power output in certain age classes. But a separate class for the surron sized bikes would likely bring a bunch of new to racing riders. And that's what would be needed to be done to not kill off other classes , and eventually bikes.
You separate the classes and whichever class the manufactures want to support gets the best racers and has the best racing and exposure. Quickest way to kill off ICE motocross bikes would be an all electric class. If 4 strokes were introduced to share valves , electrics can share the entire motor , controller , the entire power system. Start out building the bike that has to live in the worst conditions , and then use that motor and controller and software in the less demanding applications. Maybe You make a bigger battery, or twin batteries and then You have a motor and trans that will work across an entire line of powersports vehicles. SXS's , atvs snow mobiles, go karts, etc. Look at all the stark swaps people have built. And watch how stark builds on the Varg. Now take a brand like Honda who build just about every type of vehicle. And they could possible power their entire line up with some combination of say 4 or 5 motors. Just adding or reducing power via software or an extra motor or 2 depending on the vehicle.
You wanna kill off ICE bikes, run separate classes and in 10 years we will have the same arguments for allowing 2 and 4 strokes into the electric classes .
A 2502t does not make 70 or 80 hp and have to be tuned down to compete like an electric bike. And they can't make up some kind of math equation to say it's legal, only a brake dyno that measures hp and torque would tell the truth
For electrics you don't even need a dyno since they must fit FIM-certified sensors and data loggers to independently and directly measure current and voltage, multiple times per second.
The equation is very simple: current x voltage = power.
For instance if current is 125 A and voltage is 360 V, FIM knows that at this very moment the motor delivered 125 x 360 = 45 000 W (60 hp).
It's like doing instant engine dyno testing during the race, FIM knows the exact motor output delivered at every moment of every race.
You have said that You believe the 2 stroke at an equal CC would out perform a 4 stroke the same cc's. So You have already been for adjusting the power to be similar. That's what I was pointing out.
Yah they reduce the power output on the varg. But thats doing the same thing as changing the amount of CC's a combustion bike can run. The software monitors the entire time the bike is on the track and they have DQed Vargs for spikes that were fractions of a second long , but were over the limit. Spikes that were cause by the whoops or other areas of breaking and regaining traction. There are many ways to cheat and get more power from an ICE bike too and that's why You have tech inspection.
That level of monitoring isn't being done on gas bikes. There have been guys running big bores for years. And they often slip through undetected. I personally know riders who have run big bores in both classes in the outdoors. They are not tearing down every ICE bike on the line. But they can and do monitor the Vargs to ensure that they are never over the limit. Even for a fraction of a second.
I know You didn't know the Rule was there to allow 250 two strokes in the 250 class in WSX. So I am not surprised that You likely didn't look into the process that was used to come up with the power limits on the Vargs.
Last year, how many holeshots did Starks get in both classes combined?? 1 . I think they did well with limiting the power. I think they went a little too limited. Since Vince was getting amazing starts on the ICE bikes in the past. Or maybe its just the different technic involved that has resulted in his history of being a great starter not being the case on a Varg over the course of an entire season. If electrics can be limited and monitors so closely, it makes it harder to cheat than on an ICE bike right? So why not allow them in? If You put a 450 engine into the YZ250F, You have a bike making a lot more power than the 250 did. So they shouldn't allow 4 stroke YZ's since they share the same frames as a 450 right? They have a way to check and make sure guys are not racing a 450 in the 250 class, and ways to track the power output of electrics.
I get it, You love 2 strokes, or like to argue about them. I love close racing and fun to ride bikes. And I have the most fun on a Varg ( so far) but many people have more fun on an old 2 stroke, or vintage bikes, or play bikes. I'm all for making as many types of bikes as possible so that more people have the bike that is the most fun for them.
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The love of two strokes isn’t about racing for me, it’s what I learned on and it’s fun to ride. I rode 4 strokes eventually when I raced, they are much easier bikes to ride, no argument there. But that said, if they’re such a disadvantage then there is no threat making them displacement for displacement 😉 I will say if all the pros were on two strokes with no start assistance, I bet the racing would be much closer at the top. (Not advocating this, just noting) The electric bikes could extend my riding career someday, so no issues with them either.
I don't know about all that stuff between which is better 2t vs 4t, but 250 4t has made huge strides lately. My point is that this is a Championship for 250cc and 450cc gasoline powered motorcycles and if letting in Vargs as an experiment was the point, Truck was right and they embarrassed themselves in front of everyone. Not only are they overpowering the competition on the start, then they are just in the way getting passed by the riders who really should be in the championship legitimately.
That sounds like a mess. Why not modulate the power delivery or total output of the electric engine?
Yes, that's exactly what they do. And FIM can decide to decrease maximum power authorized for electrics at any time during the championship.
It's not even based on results, they have all authority to do that whenever they feel like it.
Its one race VS all the ones from last year. The great thing about the electrics is that they can fix that advantage for next time .
They got 1 holeshot last year, and look at Vince's history of getting good starts in the past years on his Moto concepts bikes. He has been worse on the Varg for whatever reason.
This slight oversight by race officials is likely already taken care of. The one that has turned everything 4 stroke is still firing people up and will continue. Fixing that will require millions of dollars in tooling and engineering to fix.
While You can just type in a few lines of code and take care of it on the Varg or any other electric.
The Yamaha engine design is an advantage over the other ICE bikes because it makes more power easier . That is an advantage that is taking years for other ICE brands to catch up to. And there is nothing in the rules to change it. Is that wrong? Should we start to limit torque and HP on ICE bikes too?
What if they just go to a max HP and minimum weight class? or max HP max Torque combo . Electrics can make crazy torque at lower HP. So restriction off HP alone is not really fair , just like it wouldn't be with ICE bikes and would be harder to police. But some sort of MX HP and Torque ratios could get them to be very similar.
Back during the time when 2 strokes and 4 strokes were mixed racing they had changed the names to SX and lites , because they knew that the possibility of other types of powering bikes may come up in the future. And it helped explain why 250's were in the 125 class , and 450's or 500's were in the 250 class. It was meant to be fluid with whatever type of propulsion was the type they wanted to race. and class name is just that a name. WSX has SX1 and SX2 not 250 and 450 classes. They went to the 250 and 450 class names since 4 strokes have been the majority of bikes racing and the names SX,MX and lite's never really caught on like the names over in MXGP have.
Fuel injection and traction control used to be illegal. But as bikes evolve rules change to fit what the manufacturers want to race.
I'm all for allowing 2 strokes in. But the real reason is that the companies building bikes do not want them racing. Why that is could just come down to not wanting to build 2 bikes for a market that they can sell twice the amount of 1 bike to. Why build twice the bikes to sell the same total number?
I'm not arguing that 2 strokes are not competitive or fun for the right riders. I'm arguing that 4 strokes do that for a bigger group of riders even when the CC's are the same. Its the style of power that a 4 stroke makes. It is smoother and over a wider rpm range so its easier to keep in that RPM range for more people. As a result more of them sell, and its more profitable to sell the bikes that work for a wider range of riders.
I would love to see somebody do something to 2 strokes that allows them to be as fun and easy to ride for everybody . And I would love for all the bikes to race together. But the only way it will happen is enough enough demand for it happens. Maybe the KX327 is enough to make it happen, maybe it isn't. But I would bet that if Yamaha and Honda both came out with Varg like bikes, the rules would change and allow them into AMA racing. Maybe it would take a 3rd, But I don't see Honda or Yamaha coming out with their electrics before they make rules to allow them in. They are working on them so I suspect the change will happen some day. Or if demand changes enough , 2 strokes could come back. Hence the names they had chosen for the classes in the past.
I think we basically agree 👍 engine design is not a problem or cheating as long as it's 250 or 450cc. The guy who can write a couple lines of code, I do not trust.
I am all for run what you bring, but I wonder what competitor that matters in WSX would run 150 or 300 two stroke.
250 2T are legal in WSX SX2 against 250 4T and electrics. I think nobody bothers because the teams and riders know 4T so well they don't think they'd get any advantage racing 2T.
Agreed that a solution for AMA or others fearing mixed competition could be to open another class. Keep 250 4T class, 450 4T class and add an open class where you could race along 2T and electrics. Just not sure how many teams would run 2T given they aren't many where they're allowed but that'd be cool.
Two fold. Yes, I understand it’s the electric motor. That’s my point. The Stark has instant torque and doesn’t need a five speed transmission. It just GOES. If you put a five speed in the Stark and made the rider shift it like an ICE bike, you’d take away part of that advantage.
Now flip it around. Give the ICE bike a CVT like a snowmobile, keep the engine in the meat of the powerband and eliminate shifting. Suddenly adding more CCs isn’t the answer. It’s about getting the horsepower you already have to the rear wheel without interruption.
I stand by my point. They do have instant power and an advantage. Not having to shift IS an advantage. A CVT addresses that advantage. More displacement doesn’t.
I've got a SXS that I have a lot of fun driving. The biggest thing I would change on it is the CVT. I would much rather have a transmission of some sort. The power always feels disconnected on anything I've ridden or driven with a CVT. Maybe a dual clutch auto trans . But I would never want a MX bike with a CVT. that would ruin it in my opinion.
How many times do they normally shift on the start straight in Supercross? some guys were starting in 3rd at one point. I don't think they are shifting more than twice at most on the start straight.
I know its a long time away, but even if they do not change anything on the power levels allowed for the Vargs, Its not gonna be the same with them grabbing every start when they are back down at a lower altitude. As far as I know the power limits are the same as last year, and the ONLY reason the Vargs were getting all the starts at this recent round was the elevation they were at. They should have adjusted the power output for the Vargs or maybe not, maybe thats just an advantage the electric gets to have when they race at elevation and ICE bikes handle whoops better so maybe they throw in an extra row of whoops at a track or 2 to make up for that condition that favors electric.
There are conditions that impact 4 strokes less than 2 strokes . That give the 4 stroke an advantage over the 2 strokes. So I could see an argument for either limiting the electrics MORE at higher elevations , or just letting them have that advantage . I bet they do change it though.
I think we agree on the 2 and 4 stroke stuff. I think maybe if You researched the way they limit the Vargs power and what is involved and understood all of that, You might agree on that too. But I can understand having Your position without knowing as much about that process as I do.
I've been following electric MX bikes closely since Alta was BRD redshift. When they made the announcement with just a rendering. Many many years ago. I enjoy the way the power feels on electric and find it interesting to learn about. I used to build my own batteries for my RC cars. And replace bad cells in the batteries . I learned to solder when I was in the 4th grade while building RC cars and got into building batteries since I couldn't afford good batteries any other way back then. Its something I've always been interested in , electric powered vehicles. So I'm not meaning it as an insult when I talk about You not knowing the testing process. I know not everybody is as interested in all of that.
It is the sanctioning body that monitors the power output. And its monitored the entire race. Its not possible to change the output past the max ,after they set it for the race. Plus they monitor the power the bike is using the entire race. Its much harder to cheat the way its done.
Stark has much more to lose than to gain by making a way around the monitoring. If they got caught cheating , they would likely make it a million times harder for them to get the bike allowed in Pro racing after that. And even if You gave those guys the full 80 HP, I don't think the results would improve on average over this last round. They may even be worse. The only spikes they have recorded ( and been penalized for the split seconds of exceeding the limits set) have been in whoops and when the wheel is spinning freely off the ground and then gets traction rapidly. Maybe the unlimited power would help them in the whoops where those spikes happen I have no idea what the issue is with them in whoops , on starts for sure.
But they are not going to be able to cheat into a win, otherwise that would have happened this last WSX round when they had a power advantage due to the elevation. They might be able to cheat into getting holeshots ( and get caught ) , but any cheating by adding more power , isn't gonna make a big impact on finishes unless You add in some other luck and unfavorable conditions that happen to favor the Vargs too. You know power isn't the key to winning motocross races.
I bet that if You put Jett out on any track with a CRF that was like his race bike in every way but power. Give him a stock power output and everything else the same. I bet he can match a fast lap done on his full race bike on most tracks. He may get a worse start. But other than that, the rider makes more of a difference than power .
There is no rule against automatic transmissions or clutches, they just have to be on the homologated bike in the US.
I do not know that much about the monitoring and equations used for electric bikes and I always got beat by the guys building their own battery packs at the track in the brushed motor RC days. If you don't mind, I would like to ask a few questions! Where is this amperage or whatever tested, out of the battery, out of the speed control, or is it some algorithm out of a bunch of things? Also, horsepower and torque are two different things and what is the ACTUAL torque produced by this machine and how is it affected by reducing the power setting? I have ridden an Alta and don't really have anything against electric bikes but, I don't see how one kind of testing is required on one machine can't be used on another, but they are still in the same championship.
The regulations ("equivalence of technologies / balance of performance" in FIM speak) don't appear to have changed from last year, they're available here
https://www.fim-moto.com/en/documents/view/2026-0-wsx-electric-eot-bop-01082026
Here is a print screen of the most relevant section
In short electrics are currently limited in power (44 kW, 59 hp in SX2, 54 kW, 72 hp in SX1), they could later be limited in torque as well, and FIM can adjust such limits whenever they want during the championship, no justifications required and no appeal is possible.
Stark must fit FIM sensors and dataloggers measuring and registering at all times battery voltage (directly between + and -) and battery current (between battery and inverter) allowing them to know power delivered by the battery at every moment of every session (voltage x current = power). So as I said, it's like they were running a live engine dyno test during every session and race.
Last year at Buenos Aires Hicks got penalized 5 places in one race (also docked to 4th place in superpole) for exceeding the "0.1 kJ per lap tolerance". With a 55 s lap that was equivalent to an extra 0.002 hp during the lap, or per lap one 0.5 s spike of 0.2 hp, or five 0.1 s spikes of 0.2 hp, or one 0.1 s spike of 1 hp. It probably had to do with whoops or landings, the point is that this demonstrated the intense scrutiny FIM applies to electrics, and that Stark obviously resolved the issue since it only happened at this race.
It's the same kind of dataloggers they use in MotoGP https://2d-datarecording.com/datasheets/
Full specs of datalogger are here
https://s49007.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/LG-CANStick_2C_V2-000…
As for torque, if FIM decided to limit it, since torque of an electric motor is controlled by current, they might not need another compulsory sensor. The way Stark limits its power is likely by reducing current (that's actually the way it is limited in FIM EnduroGP EOT/BOP regulations) which has a direct effect on torque as well. Or they could simply chose to further reduce max power, which would reduce torque as well.
Pit Row
I had not seen Beagles reply when I posted this. I'll leave what I had said. But Beagles post answers your questions better.
Yah back then the cells in packs were not always balanced. It wasn't as critical as it is with lithium batteries I guess . But getting cells that were matched and building the packs with cells that were balanced made a difference . I had a drag motor in my RC10 and it was insanely fast for about 6-8 minutes. Compared to current RC's I'm sure it would be average. But back then it was fast for an RC. I was able to pass the cars on the street I lived on that had a 40MPH speed limit. Now even a lithium pack off amazon would out perform those old hand built packs. I had burns on my fingers when I was learning to solder as a kid and the teachers asked me if my parents were abusing me. They thought they were burning me with cigarettes or something.
I'll have to refresh my memory of the exact specifics and come back.
They have to have independent ( so not stark made) dataloggers , 36 points or sensors that they measure the power output. . And I believe they can watch it in real time. Its been a while since I read about the process , I think they look at the amount of power used each lap ,and even a spike of a split second has caused them to be docked positions last year. They know that a certain amount of power used results in a certain HP. They are not allowed to exceed a set amount of power drawn even for a split second. That's how accurately they track the power output.
I believe Beagle has posted some detailed info about the process , when I watched and read about it I was sold on how solid of a method it was. It wasn't just some guesses or done without real ability to monitor. I've been through a lot the past few months and I don't wanna post something that is incorrect so some things that I'm unsure of I wanna refresh my memory. Sorry I'm unable to give a better answer right now.
I will go and refresh my memory on it and see if I can find all of the locations for the sensors. I don't remember if that was info I saw. But its something that I would be interested in re reading.
The torque is also reduced but I don't think they have a set level for it in the rules, just the HP. It naturally drops when You reduce the HP. I think that some sort of formular of torque and HP max level would be needed to truly provide a level playing field. The big advantage of electric being the instant torque. I think they did say what the torque output changed to . It wasn't a monster number . Its just that it makes it right away, or can . They have to control it with the controller to make it useable. But from what I remember the torque was not impacted as much as the HP.
Sorry I am not more of a help with explaining the process right now. I feel like an idiot, My brain just isn't working today. I'm focused on some work stuff.
Hey @The real Sasquatch , I've answered just before you, went back to EOT/BOP document.
Your memory is good, only thing is that FIM can download the data after every session, I don't think they can see it live.
Cheers buddy.
Thanks for helping out. I thought Stark had said they could monitor it live , but I'm not super focused today so its more likely I'm wrong on that. Thank You for pointing that out.
I lost my Mom in June, a week later our dog we had for about 16 years passed away. Then the next week a family friends daughter died from one of those flesh eating bacteria's, then the last day of June a kid I grew up riding with , who was supposed to move back to the area this year was hit and killed by multiple hit and run drivers when he broke down on the highway at night and got out of his vehicle. They still have not found who hit him. That was super sad for the parents, they had to shut down the highway to gather everything up. Some days I'm fine, and somedays I'm just not right yet. Its a strange foggy feeling . Maybe I'm just low on Vitamin D again?
But thanks again for making sure the correct info is put out. Now that I don't have to care for my Mom anymore there is one positive thing, I don't have a good excuse for not buying a Varg anymore..... Well other than not having worked much for the last 2 years and needing to rebuild my savings and my shops reputation for meeting deadlines again. I will at some point in the next year or two figure out how I can get myself a Varg, or maybe try converting a bike myself. I have a current generation RMZ , that I think would be cool to use. There is a shop not too far from me that builds racing ATVS. They buy 450's and use the engine and electronics in their chassis and I see the rolling chassis pop up for sale often. So maybe I'll grab a current generation CRF and use that. I got a CRF rolling chassis from them many years ago for $2500. And I've seen them selling them for not a lot more for slightly used ones now. I'll do some research on which chassis has been the best for conversions and see if I should try and go that way ,or just buy a Varg. I think it would be fun to build my own.
Not specific to wsx but I think across the board we need some change
To make the 250 class amateur/privateer friendly again we need to be able to race 250 2 strokes. Everything is expensive now and on top of that it's cheaper to race a 450 which is the premier class and makes flat out no sense at all. IF it is found that this is an uneven matchup it can be adjusted with restrictions on modifications to the 2 stroke which would make it even more budget friendly.
Just like everyone else id like to see them bump the 2t displacement for the 450 class, especially now to allow for the new crop of big bores readily available from several mfg's: beta 350, Kawi kx327, ktm 300sx and the new Athena yz300 kit Cody Webb is working on.
Anyone with decision making power not on board for some level of equalization of displacements between engine types has motivations that are highly suspect in my opinion.
Thank you for clarifying that.
No doubt, but the discussion isn't about what's more fun to ride. It's why electric bikes with the same horsepower are beating the ICE bikes.
I thought it was about allowing 2 strokes to race in WSX ? It morphed into so many things but the reason the Vargs did so well in Canada and didn't do that well last year is .....
The altitude. At the other rounds it doesn't happen.
The drop in power that ICE bikes experience gave the electrics a slight power advantage since they did not adjust the max power for altitude .I doubt that they allow that to happen again. The way the rules are they can tell Stark to lower the power for any reason at all. I'm surprised none of the other teams brought it up before the race. I had no idea that it was at a higher altitude until I saw the race. But I would think the people going there would have known and realized that the Vargs would have an advantage if they did not adjust the power.
How many times are they really shifting on the start in normal SX? 1 or 2 times? . I think in a local race that lack of having to shift might help more. Or outdoors. But not on the average SX start .
We need to stop focusing on engine displacement. There should simply be a support class and a premier class. You can ride anything you wish in either class, but the support class is for new or less successful racers.
I took it as, how could they allow such a machine that so obviously does not fit within the rules compete and still have rules against other machinery. How can you allow a machine that cannot be measured or tested in the same way as a gasoline engine? The FIM got the math wrong, and our eyes saw it, and some people think more math and adjustments will fix it. Moto GP, the NHRA and such have rules for a championship which teams have invested time and money to compete in, and the sanctioning body does this. If people like electric bikes so much, go ahead and un-cork them and create a new class instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
It was ONE RACE. At elevation. They ran the same power all last year and they did not have an advantage.
When they are back closer to sea level things will not be like they were in Canada.
How is everybody missing that MAJOR piece of info?
They should have asked Stark to lower the power by a similar amount that the gas bikes would lose due to elevation. Then it would not have been an advantage. It was the elevation that impacted the gas bikes and doesn't impact the power output on electric. They had it right or even maybe a little too low last year. For them to get a single holeshot the entire season. Maybe people do not realize that there is a power loss on ICE bikes at elevation? But it robs power , and thats the mistake the FIM made. Not calculating and having the Starks adjusted for a similar loss.
Did You not notice the same guys racing Stark's last season in WSX?? They were there. And got 1 holeshot . And it was clear that they either took too much power from them, OR the Vince Friese forgot how to get a start OR its very different starting on one and his technique did not transfer.
And You asked the question without even reading the rules to see that 2 strokes are indeed allowed in the 250 class , at the exact same CC limit .
Revisit this after the next round , the Starks will likely be all mid pack to top 5 again in the starts and be lucky to get another holeshot this season.
It "so obviously doesn't fit the rules" because those rules were set before electric bikes existed.
Once Alta, and then Stark, developed a competitive offering, the rules needed adapting to recognise and incorporate that... which is EXACTLY what they are doing.
The FIM is at least trying, whereas it is apparently all too difficult for the AMA.
Are the current rules perfect? Probably not, but neither is the 2T vs 4T rule, or the multi cylinder ban or the 450 limit, but the rules are there primarily for professional racing. For 99.9% of vitards, its immaterial. Quit whining and run what you brung - whether 450, AC/DC or that new-fangled 327cc smoke generator. There's still some fast kid on a YZ85 ready to lap you.
Post a reply to: Stark is allowed, can't we atleast get 150cc and 300cc 2 strokes for wsx?