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You are correct that no OEM has any interest in pouring millions to set up its own 2T factory team. In the examples given above where it's legal to race 250 2T against 250 4T there are simply few riders who chose to.
Following the money sounds like a national federation gatekeeping hard to accommodate the current OEMs, waiting for their signal before changing the rules while in the federations who decide for themselves, rules are open to electrics, riders get to make their own choice and life goes on.
It seems crazy to me they can't just survey the pits and some engine builders, get a rough idea of how much % they lose at altitude and with shit fuel, and ask the Stark guys to come down a similar percentage.
Like, they're fuckin adjustable, and they're already checking them assumably so the 250 class guys aren't racing in insane mode – isn't that the point?
Keep it relatively even if you want to compete. They already have the advantage of not having to shift on starts, let alone the handling.
Entirely logical Crush.
They don't need to talk to engine builders, they just have to do an air density / oxygen level test.
Then, have the 'tune' of the Electrical bikes changed - eg, for want of a better way for an E Tech dummy like me to describe it : press a few buttons on a keyboard. The powers that be already have access / control(s) in place with the E bikes.
It will (Have) to happen.
You realize I'm advocating for 150cc and 300cc, is that the advantage you speak of? I don't get all the push back, knowing the ProAMA is never going to allow cc for cc. People still push back like they are scared to let the little 150 and 300 in. If 4 strokes are better, everyone should just agree, and say yes, we should allow that. Even if some want to keep pushing for the cc vs cc agenda, that's fine as long as we start somewhere, atleast it's half way there. I wouldn't be in that fight, I'm good with 150 and 300, because anything where 2 strokes actually pose a threat, the OEMs will kill the rule anyways. So, What's the big deal with 150cc and 300cc? Now, on your previous post, I'll answer your question with a question. You do realize that 4 strokes existed before those 2 stroke big bores did, and the 4 strokes at that time died away. Everything is a pendulum. So, your post was kind of backwards, because it was the 4 strokes that existed first in mx.
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Donate to the 2 stroke equality lobbying group, we're sending Ronnie Mac to go talk to the FIM.
I’m ignorant and know nothing about GNCC rules, but what’s the structure there? Isn’t it a mixed bag as far as 2T and 4T with KTM supporting both types?
Different strokes for Different folks
But
EQUAL DISPLACEMENT FOR ALL!!!
It’s not a horsepower thing. It’s an AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION thing. The Stark has no conventional transmission, so it’s instant, uninterrupted power from the moment the gate drops. That’s a huge part of why it gets great starts and can immediately build a gap. So either give the Stark a transmission and clutch like the electric trials bikes have, or allow automatic transmissions for the ICE bikes.
Honda has already experimented with transmission technology in MotoGP that shows what can be packaged into a motorcycle. They can fit this stuff in there. Will we, the consumers, eventually get royally screwed by the added technology and cost? Absolutely. But if electric and ICE bikes are going to race head-to-head, then even the playing field mechanically, not just by limiting horsepower.
Honda and others have automatic transmission on their road bikes. Not on their MotoGP bikes where it's forbidden but they do have super quick seamless transmission and obviously up and down quickshifters.
It's all traction and bottom end torque. I am pretty good buddies with a Canadian ex pro up here and he doesn't think equal displacement would change anything. Everyone would still be on 4t's. He had every opportunity too run a 250 2t and never did.
Husqvarna raced an automatic MX bike in the late 70s.
I'm all for equal displacements. Let the consumer decide.
The post I quoted You were saying 250 and 450 2 strokes. Equal CC.
I think that fans may want to watch fast guys on 2 strokes because they sound cool. But not enough people buy them or they would still make them. I guess maybe eif could make them easier to ride and that could be something.
I'm talking about Supercross like the thread is titled. They already allow equal displacement in the 250 class. 250 cc 2 or 4 stroke.
The 450 class is the class that doesn't have a rule allowing 2 strokes in. And my point about chassis development for 2 strokes in SX was how they would be limited to running WSX and its unlikely somebody is going to spend the time and money to setup a 2 stroke for SX when they can only run it in WSX.
Supercross as a professional sport, exists for multiple reasons the entertainment of fans is one , and advertising products is another. What may be more entertaining for a segment of viewers , may not be great for bike sales. A lot of the posts I see on here about changes to MX and SX are not looking at the sport as a whole. They either look at it from the participation point of view ,or the fan/entertainment point of view. And an idea that may be great for one of those may not be for the other.
We will see how the KX327 works out. I would suspect that it's going to offer the best shot at allowing 327 cc 2 strokes into the 450 class.
In New England the local 450 class was the 200+ class for a longtime. So any bike over 200 cc's was allowed . They had a 125, 200 and open class for each skill level. And there were 2 guys that rode 500 2 strokes in the 200+ class over the years I was following closely and racing every weekend. Only one guy did it in the Pro/expert classes . He rode a 250 in the 250 class and a Service Honda cr 500 in the 200+ class. He was fast enough to score point in nationals back then. And he didn't do much different than he did on his 4 strokes the years before and after. He had A kit suspension on the bikes and the rumors were that each 500 cost him $50K and his 250's were in the low $30s to mid $40's His family owns a big paving company in the north east and his budget for local racing was more than a lot of privateer SX teams .
Multiple other racers still beat him on a 450 with a stock engine a full exhaust and suspension revalve. I knows its one example. But that's the thing, it was allowed for years. And between 1999 and when the rule changed only one guy in the pro class that had a shot at moto wins ever rode one. And it now sits in his kitchen in a display case and he rides 4 strokes again. His style always fit 4 strokes better anyway so I don't know why he tried that year of 2 strokes. He had a CC advantage in the 200+ class with a 500 2 stroke. And matched in the 250 class. He did better in the big bike classes than he did on his 250. There have been a lot of guys that ride 250 2 strokes and big bored 250 2 strokes in both classes with some success that were better on 2 strokes than 4 strokes.
But riding style impacts which bike Your faster on. Other than drag races. The power delivery on the 4 strokes is just easier to go faster on for more people.
Electric bikes are what could help the sport grow as a participation sport. It may impact the entertainment aspect at the pro level. But as for getting new riders into the sport and fun factor. I challenge anybody to ride a Varg, or surron or similar bike and say that it wasn't fun. They have way fewer parts needed to build them, and done right, could cost much less than ICE bikes while out performing them in many ways. The biggest thing holding back electric right now is the charging speed. runtime to a lesser degree. But even with the current runtime for a Varg, if they could be recharged in 5 minutes, I think that would make it so that it could replace gas powered bikes for most riders. In another 4 or 5 years, Range will be less of a problem or not a problem for motocross style racing . And solid-state batteries will make charging speeds a non issue. If those 2 things come together at similar cost to current batteries, electric will be able to replace gas for anybody who want it to. I personally hope they keep making as many different types of dirtbikes as possible. For me, electric is the most fun. But I do love a 2 stroke on a freshly groomed Southwick. First lap of practice feeling like a hero. And nothing beats the sound of a starting gate filled with 2 strokes.
I've been watching some old race footage from the early 2000's and hearing the gate drops of almost all 2 strokes is awesome. I've never liked how the 4 strokes sound personally. But I did enjoy riding one more in the long run.
You guys are missing the big picture with the 2 stroke, 4 stroke, Electric argument.
The electrics represent a "fracture in technology", meaning they will require a share of the R&D labor, and budget, as well as a different pile of consumer money.
This sport BARELY survived the first technology fracture (2 vs 4) in the early 00s mostly because the economy was on a roll from 02-08. It won't survive third fracture between electrics and ICE. Being emotionally reactive, and short sighted en masse is how these shitstorms happen.
Don't want to beat a dead horse but, the big picture for me is the Stark, right out of the box CAN make 80hp right? And it's pulling massive hole shots against factory 450s and 250s. It cannot be torn down and measured but, they will email you a file to prove it's turned down?
Except for Stark, it seems like electric moto is evolving as its own thing with its own separate races, companies, and rider base (EMR races in SoCal, for example).
Pit Row
Other than the most recent WSX, where else have the Starks been pulling consistent massive holeshots? I remember watching last year and being disappointed with how the Stark riders were doing. I was hoping that Vince was going to be leading laps and doing similarly to how he was on the 450. The Starks got a few good starts.
The Honda's of the Lawrence bro's have had more consistent amazing starts than Stark has had . I know they have not been racing each other. But the point is that they are more dominant in their starts in a more competitive series than Stark has in the series they are allowed in. Vince having a rep for good starts, I was looking forward to seeing him on a Varg. I think they got the power levels either a little lower than they could be, or Vince's technic didn't transfer over to the electric. Max power may help on starts, but other than the starts I don't think that running 80 or 100 HP would be an advantage . Often having too much power makes it harder to time jumps, easier to break traction, etc.
Holla!
The thing is, I'm advocating for the 150 and 300, because I can not foresee a favorable outcome if "someone" sponsor riders to race 250 and let's say 350 2 strokes. If any of those riders were to constantly beat factory 4 strokes, the OEMs would push to squash the rules and we'd be back to square one. Using the 150 and 300 rules, "someone" can sponsor riders and let's say, give enough pay when they just qualify and race the mains, compared to getting maybe even a little better places with their $30k 4 stroke, but come out much more behind money wise. "Someone" would like to show a lot of riders, they won't do much better on a 4 stroke unless they are spending a ton of money. While Mitch (example) could make a 150 or 300 plenty competitive for the lower tier riders. I can foresee multiple riders who would race 2 strokes in each class with the right sponsorship. Plus, they won't be spending so much up front on their bikes.
At this point, the powers that be could drop the "double displacement" rules, going "cc for cc", and nearly all of the serious pros would still ride 4 strokes. The only way 2 strokes could come back at the highest level is if they have their own full National championship class(es) created.
Well the rules do allow up to a 250 2 stroke in the 250 class in WSX. So You could do it already in that class. But Your proving the point I've been making. That people are generally faster on the 4 strokes. Even with even displacement. Paying a rider to ride a bike that they finish worse on is not showing that the 2 stroke is better or even the same.
I don't think anybody is arguing that a 2 stroke can be cheaper to race than a 4 stroke. Especially if Your willing to have a bike that Your not as fast on when Your on the 2 stroke. You could also run a stock engine in the 450 class and save money too.
Its wild how the weight on a 125 can be 18 pounds less than the AMA minimum 250f weight . That is crazy how much weight can be dropped. Its only an 8 pound difference on the 250 2 stroke and 450. You can race 125's and 250's in AMA racing as long as the brand You wanna race is having the bikes homologated .
With Kawasaki making the KX 327, I wouldn't be surprised to see a rule change to allow it into some 450 classes. Making 327cc's the new max allowed . And I don't doubt that with the right riding style and bike, that some people will be faster on a 150 2 stroke than a 250 4 stroke , or even the 300 2 stroke to the 450. But the majority of people are faster on 4 strokes right now.
I didn't know about the rules for wsx until someone, maybe you, posted them. So next year I can do what I speak of for that class. But again, if someone fast would start doing good, I truly believe the oems would kill that rule the following year. As far as my goals, I long let go of the hope of cc vs cc in ProAMA. I truly am interested in helping cost wise. I have heard multiple times, riders down at the bottom could use some help. Heck, we just went through a big fiasco regarding the tiny pay for racing motocross events and not getting paid. So, a pretty nice payout for some riders who would normally have to blow a ton of money on a 4 stroke, would actually make some in the end, just qualifying and racing a main. But I want the 150 and 300 rules for long term. I believe you haven't seen the end all for 2 stroke tech. Jmho. We need the sport to get cheaper for everyone. Plus, quieter. I've been fighting for that, long before the ev bikes existed. A 2 stroke can be made quiet easier.
As far as 125 and 250 racing in the said classes, we've seen that there isn't any chance with those, to even consistently qualify. With a 150 and 300, I think there's a good chance. As far as your hope of a 327 getting the nod. They've for 25 years said no to a 150 and 300, what makes you think a 327 will get the nod? I'd bet, not a chance. Hope I'm proven wrong. But I'd bet my dollar I'm not.
Kawasaki building one is the main reason I would suspect a rule change. Why a 327? why not a 300 like the other brands that make them? What classes would it open up or make ineligible for by making it a 327?
Maybe they did a 327 so that it wouldn't compete against a 250F as directly ? So it wouldn't be allowed into the 250 class and then have a chance of beating their 4 strokes. Since there are a lot of local series allowing 250 2 strokes in the 250 classes. They know that a 500 2 stroke is too big for most people so they went with that seemingly random 327 cc's
OR maybe Kawasaki has a heads up on a potential rule change that would fit it into a class. I am not very familiar with the off road class structures . So maybe it slides into the class with the KTM branded 300's? I have not heard why Kawasaki went with that displacement. So I could be way off on my guesses.
I wanted to add on. I hope that You are able to put something together to help riders for next year. Thank You for helping support the sport and acting on your beliefs for how you think it can be improved. Too many people just complain from the sidelines . After you get some stuff sorted out. You should write up a fresh thread talking about the process and I bet You could add some support to your program. Either way, its nice to see people who want to give back to the sport.
So, KTM 300s are the best selling off-road motorcycle in the world I think I heard. I'd personally take the guess, it's in comparison to that and the 350 beta. I'm sure they rode both. There's a perfect number, and maybe 327 is it? I've always believed a 350 to 400 would be. But I'm not an engine builder, so it was just my opinion.
Just saw your edit. Thanks. I'll definitely keep people in the loop. I have quite a few things in the works for bikes in general.
you two stroke enthusiasts are weird...omg we need two strokes!! why so you can not hear them riding around in 10th place or worse cus the 4 strokes are faster and louder? like on a gate of 20-40 riders wtf does 1 or 2 random privateers on a two stroke add to the nights excitement? " screw the lead battle , look at this guy riding in 12th with an expansion chamber, omg so heccin cool"
You're right they have to be downgraded to be allowed to race.
But Starks are monitored like no other bike has ever been.
First, they have developed with the FIM a software that's locking maximum power for 1 or 2 days.
Then they are fitted with a FIM-mandated data logger, independent from the bike systems, recording lots of inputs including voltage and current from which they know power output and so on.
Data is downloaded and analyzed by FIM technical inspectors after each session.
In fact last year, Hicks got penalized for exceeding maximum power for a few milliseconds while landing jumps. That's an unprecedented level of scrutiny.
I thought it was ingenious. https://www.tiktok.com/@redandroid1/video/7662029611361963284
The motor is capable of that Horsepower. But in the class it is capped at some 48HP like the other bikes. In Canada they had an advantage due to altitude. 3400 Ft.
Post a reply to: Stark is allowed, can't we atleast get 150cc and 300cc 2 strokes for wsx?