What is wrong with the Kawi?

jps256
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With two high profile riders in a row recently not liking the package, what is it lacking? I remember in the not too distant past Tomac dominating on green. Anyone in the know?

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jazza167
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not sure I’d say ET dominated on green… outdoors maybe but not sx. Left a lot of championships on the table. It’s clear kawi is struggling to provide the feeling their riders are looking for, weather it’s Chase or George. 

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Motofinne
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1 day ago Edited Date/Time 1 day ago

Probably the same kinds of issues that the old Factory Yamaha team had before star. Very rigid in their way of working for a very long time, and now they seem to look more outside the box but that isn't easy either when they have been living in a rigid box for a decade or more. 

It seems like they're lost and lack the capability to make true progress with the whole package. We've heard for over a year that "they are doing everything they can" for the riders, well they are obviously not succeeding with that. 

The "quick-fix" is to outsource the program to a private entity like Yamaha did with Star. The issue is that there aren't many Star racing's out there available.

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super_fan_38
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Listen to Jake Weimer on Pulpmx a while back.

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jps256
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Listen to Jake Weimer on Pulpmx a while back.

Just had a listen, Sounds like a chassis issue and a refusal to test things specifically related to chassis (not suspension). Maybe a change in personnel is needed to move forward

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steveloyer
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1 day ago Edited Date/Time 1 day ago
jps256 wrote:
With two high profile riders in a row recently not liking the package, what is it lacking? I remember in the not too distant past Tomac...

With two high profile riders in a row recently not liking the package, what is it lacking? I remember in the not too distant past Tomac dominating on green. Anyone in the know?

It won a world championship last year and 2 main events, it is fine. 
I do believe Prado had his issues come from a KTM and GP setup, chase is mental.

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steveloyer
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Listen to Jake Weimer on Pulpmx a while back.

I absolutely don't doubt Jake, and as a huge fan, it sucked when it went south, but that was over 10 years ago.

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RV was the last one to make it work and by the sounds of it even during that era things weren't great.

Kawasaki has benefited from having the best riders which covered up their short comings.

I cant help but think AC's career would have went different for the better if he wasn't on kawi

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Motofinne
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Listen to Jake Weimer on Pulpmx a while back.

jps256 wrote:
Just had a listen, Sounds like a chassis issue and a refusal to test things specifically related to chassis (not suspension). Maybe a change in personnel...

Just had a listen, Sounds like a chassis issue and a refusal to test things specifically related to chassis (not suspension). Maybe a change in personnel is needed to move forward

And Chase said in a pre-race interview a couple of weeks ago that he was frustrated because they weren't even working on the chassis problem (all focus was on engine).

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jps256
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RV was the last one to make it work and by the sounds of it even during that era things weren't great.Kawasaki has benefited from having...

RV was the last one to make it work and by the sounds of it even during that era things weren't great.

Kawasaki has benefited from having the best riders which covered up their short comings.

I cant help but think AC's career would have went different for the better if he wasn't on kawi

I was thinking the same after listening to weimer

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jps256
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steveloyer wrote:
It won a world championship last year and 2 main events, it is fine. I do believe Prado had his issues come from a KTM and GP...

It won a world championship last year and 2 main events, it is fine. 
I do believe Prado had his issues come from a KTM and GP setup, chase is mental.

I see what your saying, the Gp's are a completely different team though

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steveloyer
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steveloyer wrote:
It won a world championship last year and 2 main events, it is fine. I do believe Prado had his issues come from a KTM and GP...

It won a world championship last year and 2 main events, it is fine. 
I do believe Prado had his issues come from a KTM and GP setup, chase is mental.

jps256 wrote:

I see what your saying, the Gp's are a completely different team though

Agreed so its the team and or rider and not the bike?

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jps256
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steveloyer wrote:

Agreed so its the team and or rider and not the bike?

as in they would test and run different parts. The issue im interested in is with the american team. you seem to have a strong point of view with little insight

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VHM
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Prado and Chase have both mentioned not being comfortable on the bike.

114341
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1 day ago Edited Date/Time 1 day ago
VHM wrote:
Prado and Chase have both mentioned not being comfortable on the bike.

Prado and Chase have both mentioned not being comfortable on the bike.

114341

I love chases honesty and candidness but that particular quote in that interview made me cringe.  The dude said it’s the most uncomfortable he’s ever been, not just that the bike needed work to get in a better spot.


That quote alone makes me think that he wants off the kawi sooner than later 

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YZ125H1
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I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality, Weimer even mentioned that as well. You think with them trying all kinds of parts outside of Kawasaki; they would be able to get the bike suited for him.

BossWool2800
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This has already been beat into the ground in the Panic Chase thread.

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I dunno man. Hopefully we can work it out in this thread. Not much luck in the others.

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PRM31
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I get the feeling that chassis design in both flex and geometry is some sort of black magic vice some understood science. KTM veered away from a well liked chassis, Honda is welding braces into their HRC frames looking for something, Chase and Jorge clearly don’t like the Kawi. You’d think Kawi would leave no stone unturned, but apparently they think they know best what works, despite much evidence otherwise. 

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APLMAN99
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The Kawasaki team may not be perfect, but they’ve given Chase a bike good enough to win 2 Supercross races this season. If the bike is good enough to win on, it’s got to be at least decent. It sounds like Sexton is looking for perfection, which is something he’ll probably never attain no matter how many teams he goes to. He’s doing something that a lot of us do in less publicity visible situations, he’s letting ‘perfection’ stand in the way of something pretty damn good. 

He didn’t like the Honda, but the other Honda riders made it work pretty well. He didn’t like the KTM, but look at how quickly Tomac adapted to it and won races. 

Sexton seems to think that if he doesn’t win, it’s got to be because of the bike. And that then becomes a built in excuse for when he doesn’t have a great race. If he were to somehow believe that he had great equipment and accept that some weeks he’ll win but some weeks he’ll only be good enough for a top 5, I think he’d be a contender for every championship series he enters. A good mental coach who could somehow convince him that not winning doesn’t mean that the bike must have been dog shit would go a long, long way. 

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steveloyer
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steveloyer wrote:

Agreed so its the team and or rider and not the bike?

jps256 wrote:
as in they would test and run different parts. The issue im interested in is with the american team. you seem to have a strong point...

as in they would test and run different parts. The issue im interested in is with the american team. you seem to have a strong point of view with little insight

Not really. I'm looking to understand and would take anyone's input. Its just bizarre, Anderson never really picked on this bike, but that could of been his attitutde toward racing and didn't care enough. I dont remember AC ever saying anything bad about it but prado and chase just taking it to the ground

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30minmotos
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APLMAN99 wrote:
The Kawasaki team may not be perfect, but they’ve given Chase a bike good enough to win 2 Supercross races this season. If the bike is...

The Kawasaki team may not be perfect, but they’ve given Chase a bike good enough to win 2 Supercross races this season. If the bike is good enough to win on, it’s got to be at least decent. It sounds like Sexton is looking for perfection, which is something he’ll probably never attain no matter how many teams he goes to. He’s doing something that a lot of us do in less publicity visible situations, he’s letting ‘perfection’ stand in the way of something pretty damn good. 

He didn’t like the Honda, but the other Honda riders made it work pretty well. He didn’t like the KTM, but look at how quickly Tomac adapted to it and won races. 

Sexton seems to think that if he doesn’t win, it’s got to be because of the bike. And that then becomes a built in excuse for when he doesn’t have a great race. If he were to somehow believe that he had great equipment and accept that some weeks he’ll win but some weeks he’ll only be good enough for a top 5, I think he’d be a contender for every championship series he enters. A good mental coach who could somehow convince him that not winning doesn’t mean that the bike must have been dog shit would go a long, long way. 

That type of attitude is what kawi has had for years.


“RV won on it so what’s the problem?”


“We know what works”


“you won a hardpack concrete sx on it where the leader was in title mode , so you should be fine everywhere”


I don’t know man, hard to give them any credit with the huge amount of evidence that says they can’t set up a bike, are too rigid, and too corporate. They let the head honchos make the decisions the guys on the floor should be making. And it shows.

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jazza167 wrote:
not sure I’d say ET dominated on green… outdoors maybe but not sx. Left a lot of championships on the table. It’s clear kawi is struggling...

not sure I’d say ET dominated on green… outdoors maybe but not sx. Left a lot of championships on the table. It’s clear kawi is struggling to provide the feeling their riders are looking for, weather it’s Chase or George. 

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but don’t forget Tomac had a massive part in missing out on some of those SX titles, it was not strictly bike. 

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Zycki11
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APLMAN99 wrote:
The Kawasaki team may not be perfect, but they’ve given Chase a bike good enough to win 2 Supercross races this season. If the bike is...

The Kawasaki team may not be perfect, but they’ve given Chase a bike good enough to win 2 Supercross races this season. If the bike is good enough to win on, it’s got to be at least decent. It sounds like Sexton is looking for perfection, which is something he’ll probably never attain no matter how many teams he goes to. He’s doing something that a lot of us do in less publicity visible situations, he’s letting ‘perfection’ stand in the way of something pretty damn good. 

He didn’t like the Honda, but the other Honda riders made it work pretty well. He didn’t like the KTM, but look at how quickly Tomac adapted to it and won races. 

Sexton seems to think that if he doesn’t win, it’s got to be because of the bike. And that then becomes a built in excuse for when he doesn’t have a great race. If he were to somehow believe that he had great equipment and accept that some weeks he’ll win but some weeks he’ll only be good enough for a top 5, I think he’d be a contender for every championship series he enters. A good mental coach who could somehow convince him that not winning doesn’t mean that the bike must have been dog shit would go a long, long way. 

It isn't that simple as the bikes have a window, and it could work in one condition over another.  Just because someone "made" it work doesn't mean it works "well". If you go back and look at Tomac on the Kawi it is clear to see how choppered out his bike is compared to the Yamaha and KTM that he was able to direct the setup on.  When you have multiple instances of riders complaining of comfort and the team unable to find the sweat spot, you need to look at the continued issue and not just a rider looking for "perfection" 

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Tyler D
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YZ125H1 wrote:
I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality...

I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality, Weimer even mentioned that as well. You think with them trying all kinds of parts outside of Kawasaki; they would be able to get the bike suited for him.

This is wild because others have stated how unstable the bike is with the steeper head angle than the old bike and other bikes. It can't be both. 

Also, it can't be that the motor is too far forward but it also won't turn.

 

davis224
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YZ125H1 wrote:
I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality...

I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality, Weimer even mentioned that as well. You think with them trying all kinds of parts outside of Kawasaki; they would be able to get the bike suited for him.

Tyler D wrote:
This is wild because others have stated how unstable the bike is with the steeper head angle than the old bike and other bikes. It can't...

This is wild because others have stated how unstable the bike is with the steeper head angle than the old bike and other bikes. It can't be both. 

Also, it can't be that the motor is too far forward but it also won't turn.

 

Chase said in his last interview that it has tons of weight on the front end, and if he rode over the front like he did on Honda and KTM, he'd be on the ground constantly. He's having to adjust to riding in a neutral centered position.

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Zycki11
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1 day ago
YZ125H1 wrote:
I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality...

I forget what round it was but Chase mentioned they were trying to get the bike to turn. Kawi has always had that rear steering mentality, Weimer even mentioned that as well. You think with them trying all kinds of parts outside of Kawasaki; they would be able to get the bike suited for him.

Tyler D wrote:
This is wild because others have stated how unstable the bike is with the steeper head angle than the old bike and other bikes. It can't...

This is wild because others have stated how unstable the bike is with the steeper head angle than the old bike and other bikes. It can't be both. 

Also, it can't be that the motor is too far forward but it also won't turn.

 

It can easily be both. Steeper head angle and the bike is twitchy at turn in, unstable in the middle, and then over steers on exit of the corner.  Essentially super touchy without continued flow through the corner.  When you watch Chase his two largest hangups appear to be corners and whoops.  Corners he has a hitch in the apex and almost has to turn twice unless it is a sweeping corner.  

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RDnutz
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23 hours ago

time to chuck the current frame and come up with a new steel neutral balanced frame.

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Zycki11
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RDnutz wrote:

time to chuck the current frame and come up with a new steel neutral balanced frame.

Not a wise decision, that would take ages to test, refine, etc.  Stick with aluminum and make proper adjustments from feedback 

Indy mxer
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23 hours ago

He just won the last SX and looked pretty good doing it. It's not the bike.

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