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I like riding a 250F much more.
It was also commented by rmgsxr i think that his parts sales are down with the 4 strokes.. Honestly I can totally see this as maintence on the 4 stroke seemingly fits well with the lazier breed of riders riding them. On a 2 stroke, as the top end wore out, you could feel the bike getting weaker. Rebuilds are as easy as changing parts, so what the heck, drop a Ben Franklin, and you are good to go in less than a few hours in your garage. On the 4 stroke, it never gets that tired feeling, right up till the second it locks up. This is why resale is so horrible on them. You get the owner who has rode the bike the last 2 years, putt-putting around in the woods or track, but has racked up alot of hours on the bike. He never has one lick of problems and when the new owner buys it he does so with confidence b/c the bike is still tight feeling since it has never been rode hard. If he is a fast A or B rider, the bike is now a ticking time bomb, and the rebuild process is involved enough that most riders arent going to do a top end as preventative maintence.
On the 4 stroke you not only have to change the piston/rings and gaskets like the 2 stroke, but you have to check/replace other things like the timing chain, valve lash, valve guides,seals, and seats. Most weekend warriors dont have the tools needed to do these types of services, so the bike has to go to the dealer.. Or they just keep riding the bike, b/c it still feels tight and fresh, even though it has a ton of hrs on it and then the motor locks up without warning. Suddenly it will cost more to fix the bike than its worth
This is the problem with the 2 vs 4 debate.. Just as the reason the problem wont be fixed is about money, the problems are about money as well. MX has finally gotten to a price point where people are finding other hobbies, and cheaper forms of recreation. For me personally, $6500 is pretty much the max that I will spend on a motorcycle, and as soon as my dealer starts having to sell me new bikes over that cost I will start buying used. Alot of that is our fault though as the US dollar is very weak to the yen.
People can argue that the rules in PRO racing have no bearing on local racing. BUt they do... For most, they get into racing with dreams of becomming a professional one day. As a dreamer you emulate(sp) everything you see the pro's do, including what machinery they are on, in an effort to get to their level. Thats why the fix for this sport has to start there...Unfortunately the powers that be are to worried about maintaining the status quo, even if it means making the ship sink faster
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But I still don't see this big demand for 2 strokes, not around here anyway.
Do you guys really think Honda, Kaw and Suz are that stupid.
Again, if they would see a huge demand for 2 strokes, they'll be on dealer floors tomorrow! After all, it's all about making money.
And as far as prices go, everything is high. I just bought a new Kawasaki Teryx side by side. I got a good deal and still paid about 11 grand for it. Shit, I paid 21k for a new HD Fatboy back in 2001.
MX is still one of the cheapest forms of racing. I know guys who have paid as much money for their F***ing mountain bikes and road bicycles as I did for my 250F.
It's all relative.
And finally, not everyone starts riding and aspires to be a pro. Just like people don't take up golf hoping to make the PGA Tour. A large percentage got into it for the fun of competing or just riding.
But, in a perfect world, it would be cool to have really modern 2 strokes as an option from all the OEM's.
Unfortunately, that's not reality.
Contrary to some on here I don't hate DC, I just think he's a little fearful of making any waves with anyone about 2-strokes. 2-strokes aren't the savior of SX or MX, its would just be nice to see the displacement raised a little, or have some inclusion at the Pro level.
DC and FTE have not answered the question - Are the current rules in the AMA ProRacing Rulebook fair for the 2-stroke?
I have 2 2008 4 strokes collecting dust. Too expensive to rebuild, not worth anything to sell and I cannot afford new ones. Were done.
the single biggest expense to go racing for the year is travel/lodging. gas is up to 3 bucks a gallon.
then you have to compare the kids of todays generation to the kids of the previous generations. i think you can split them into 2 categories now:
the ultra competitive team sports kids. organized sports has evolved into a totally different animal then it was years ago. gone are the days where football was played for two months in the fall and you had the summers to do what you want. now you have summer leagues and traveling leagues for every sport plus pro style camps for everything down to damn near t-ball. everybody thinks they are going to make it big now and get the full ride scholarship and go pro.
then you have the kids who dont really do much of anything outside the house. the xbox and playstation kids who would rather play atv vs mx on the tv then actually go outside and participate. when i was young the neighborhoods had constant kid activities going on. kids on bicycles were all over. streets are barren in my neighborhood today. today we have to have god damn tv commercials asking kids to go out and play. are you f-ing kidding me.
both these groups have their iphones, mp3 players, ipads, laptops, flat screen tvs in their bedrooms, stereos, etc. hell, i can drive past a highschool parking lot and most kids have a nicer car then i do now days.
so in many instances the money would be there to participate in this sport, but those funds are being allocated for different things. no conspiracy just different priorities for many.
Are you sure you have your story straight? Gas was at RECORD highs in 1981 RECORD HIGHS.
Adjusted for inflation gas was something like 3.30 a gallon. Minimum wage was a little over 3 dollars an hour. What did you get for a yard?
A new bike was about 1500 bucks. How many yards were you cutting? And unless I am wrong you only cut grass in spring and summer right? Usually on weekends too? When did you race?
A complete revamp should happen, then the common fan will enjoy things as they were when the last surge of off-road/mx happened. For those around then, you'll recall a recession was in full swing from the mid to late '70's, and didn't slow things down.
Consider the price for sx tickets the last few years, ads to excess in the mags, etc.
I'd love to see a little fat trimmed from the "sport".
This sport hardly needs growing, as depicted by the powers that be.
It is not about what he believes to be fair on rules right now. If he changes the rules and the manufactures don't like the rules and just stay home, where does that leave the sport right now? Kawasaki pays the Pro Circuit riders salaries so how do you think it would help if Kawasaki decided to stay home. There are not enough JGRs out there to fill the spots.
Don't know who follows Road Racing but it got pretty thin when DMG thought they could flip the bird to all of the manufactures.
Like it or not, right now AMA pro racing needs to make them happy.
MSRP* $8,250 (White/Red) Available from September 2010 $8,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White) Available from September 2010 Engine Type 449cc liquid-cooled DOHC 4-stroke; 4 titanium valves Bore x Stroke 97.0 x 60.8mm Compression Ratio 12.5:1 Fuel Delivery Yamaha Fuel Injection (YFI), Keihin® 44mm Ignition CDI Transmission Constant-mesh 5-speed; multiplate wet clutch Final Drive Chain Drive Chassis Suspension / Front KYB® Speed-Sensitive System, inverted fork: fully adjustable, 12.2-in travel Suspension / Rear KYB® Fully adjustable single shock; 12.4-in travel Brakes / Front Hydraulic single disc brake, 250mm Brakes / Rear Hydraulic single disc brake, 245mm Tires / Front 80/100-21-Dunlop® D-742FA Tires / Rear 120/80-19-Dunlop® D-756 Dimensions Length 86.3 in Width 32.4 in Height 51.6 in Seat Height 39.3 in Wheelbase 58.7 in Ground Clearance 15.0 in Fuel Capacity 1.63 gal Wet Weight*** 245 lb Other Warranty 30 Day (Limited Factory Warranty)
MSRP* $8,390 (Raven) Available from September 2010/CA model February 2011
$8,290 (Deep Blue) Available from September 2010/CA model February 2011
Engine
Type 942cc air-cooled 4-stroke, V-twin, SOHC, 4-valve
Bore x Stroke 85.0mm x 83.0mm
Compression Ratio 9.0:1
Fuel Delivery Fuel injection
Ignition TCI: Transistor Controlled Ignition
Transmission 5-speed; multiplate wet clutch
Final Drive Belt
Chassis
Suspension / Front Telescopic fork, 5.3-in travel
Suspension / Rear Single shock, 4.3-in travel
Brakes / Front Hydraulic disc, 320mm
Brakes / Rear Hydraulic disc, 298mm
Tires / Front 130/70-18M/C 63H
Tires / Rear 170/70-16 M/C 75H
Wheels 8-spoke cast
Dimensions
Length 95.9 in
Width 39.4 in
Height 42.5 in
Seat Height 26.5 in
Wheelbase 66.3 in
Rake (Caster Angle) 32.0°
Trail 5.7 in
Fuel Capacity 4.4 gal
Fuel Economy** 47 mpg
Wet Weight*** 613 lb
Other
Warranty 1 Year (Limited Factory Warranty)
The issue is that without the 2 stroke option newcomers won't become involved and others will vacate and that will have a tremendous negative effect on the sport down the road.
Pit Row
Is it a real choice given the difference between a 250 smoker and a 450? No. That's not really a fairness issue. Would a larger smoker make it a better choice, yes.
I think its unfair to say Davey is fearful of making waves. Maybe he's not being stupid. Maybe he's just making what he feels is the wisest choice he can at the moment given the recent precedent of the OEMs walking and the threat to do so here in MX. Keep in mind how in jeopardy the nationals were by the time the AMA decided it was screwing everything up would sell pro racing.
But if folks think winning the two stroke battle on principle is worth losing Pro MX, then - in fairness - you could at least credit the guy for simply disagreeing with you and doing what he thinks best rather than suggesting he doesn't have a spine or, worse, is a sell out.
the way to evoke the changes the 2stroke proponents desire is not by having 30 people spouting off on an internet thread. what you need is a single well spoken person to collect data from all and couple that with some research and organize those thoughts into document form presenting those ideals. this person also needs to be cognisant of the sticking points of the other side rather then dismissing them entirely.
way to many assumptions are regurgitated every time this debate shows up. one example from this thread. "husqvarna and tm would love to come into the sport if the current rule was ammended". really? in what capacity would they most likely come into the sport? sponsoring a single rider? having an entire team? maybe they really have no interest and are happy where they are. maybe they really would want to make a huge splash in this market if the rule changed. i dont know, but this is part of the research i spoke of. drawing conclusions from investigative research is much different from the assumptions thrown out as fact that happens every time this debate occurs.
putting together this type of proposal would be a ton of work and just because somebody put the effort into this document and presented it to the powers that be doesnt necessarily mean that the changes will happen. in that case you have to listen to their counter points and revise your own document accordingly and try again. its not the type of thing where the other side makes a counterpoint and you call them a shithead and go home. you actually have to listen and try to understand their point of view in order to come up with a fitting solution for all.
this is the real world and this is how things are done. the opportunity is more then available to you all. DC has posted his email right in this thread after all. but all of you blowing his inbox up separately with the same type of stuff that has been presented in this thread is not going to help your cause. thats my 2 cents anyway.
So DC, how about that Racer X Rookie Cup 125cc 6 round National Championship? I'll sponsor some holeshot awards at each round and provide a bike for some deserving rider.
I used to get a lot more upset about this kind of thing, but it is what it is. I remember when Yamaha and Honda came into MX and started to displace Husky, Maico, CZ and etc - lots of us thought it was the end of the sport as we knew it. They had so much money but never had the soul of the sport like the old Euro marques did. Come to find out, the Japanese brands didn't ruin anything.
I really think there's a middle ground. Let guys run unleaded in 250s and you'll see them doing OK in the 450 class, at least privateers, the spectators will cheer for them extra hard and it'll add a whole new dimension to the experience. Surely there's a better way than constantly retreating to our trenches and fighting the same battle every year.
A simple thing like allowing 250 two strokes into the nationals could start the land slide for a big change that would make things better for us all. I don't think a 250 two stroke is a huge unfair advantage against a PC or Gieco 250f. I do think that a privateer will do well enough that everyone will need to look at what we are doing and why.
I used to get a lot more upset about this kind of thing, but it is what it is. I remember when Yamaha and Honda came into MX and started to displace Husky, Maico, CZ and etc - lots of us thought it was the end of the sport as we knew it. They had so much money but never had the soul of the sport like the old Euro marques did. Come to find out, the Japanese brands didn't ruin anything.
I really think there's a middle ground. Let guys run unleaded in 250s and you'll see them doing OK in the 450 class, at least privateers, the spectators will cheer for them extra hard and it'll add a whole new dimension to the experience. Surely there's a better way than constantly retreating to our trenches and fighting the same battle every year.
I think we all agree that since minis are staying 2 strokes we need a 125 class. It's a necessary bike. It's more likely to get going than getting 250's in the 250 class.
Look at the model in Europe...they have a good series for kids to aspire to race 125's in. So they will buy them and ride them locally as well. The manufactures have obviously taken notice, because you can go buy a RM 125 in Italy for 1800 Euro ($2400) less than an RMZ 250. In England a new RM 125 is 2000 pounds (about $3000) less than a new RMZ 250. They have the option to decide how they race.
We will too. I think more and more promoters are adding 125 classes and it can grow. Manufactures will have to bring back their 125's to the US. We need to develop a small series. 6 races may be too much to start with. But we need to come up with some sort of model and plan to build it.
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