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Got a link? What am I looking for? I'm open to info if I've got the facts wrong somewhere.
When you go after me, that’s how I know I am over the target. Here is another thing I heard recently. The intercepted Signal chat that is being used by the resistance in MN to coordinate interference with ICE is being directed by MN government officials. Stay tuned. Have a great day! Take care!
So is your point basically 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'?
I think carrying illegally, regardless of environment, classifies as 'stupidly' to many. You carry illegally, but responsibly. I see how you guys are different now.
Can you provide a link to something reasonably credible that points to him carrying illegally? Though I guess you don't care about this part, just 'stupidly', which is fair. I'd put Rittenhouse in the same boat, though I think it's quite clear he was looking to do more agitating than Pretti.
How did he put himself and others in danger? To the point of needing to kill him?
Even Stephen Miller has acknowledged a possible breach of protocol by the ICE officers resulting in the death of this citizen. I was pretty shocked by this.
If ICE worked with moral integrity and to the standard they are trained to, I don't think people would have nearly as much of an issue vs how they are currently conducting their business.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fact-checking-fbi-director-patels….
So, no source?
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Apologies mate, I was initially trying to multi-quote in my reply to yours. The first half of my post was to you, but the rest was in general about this topic.
Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
Is this your contribution to this thread? Let me know when you actually have something to say. Have a great day! Take care!
Anecdotal references aren't facts, could you actually benefit the conversation by providing context to your statements? It's honestly not much to ask.
Can you please give a source for him not having his permit on him?
I’m impressed that you have the confidence to speak as if you’ve contributed anything of value.
Ya, I expect ICE to not use lethal force in a non lethal situation even if someone is a career agitator. Blowing whistles and filming is a first amendment right. The responsibility here lies solely with ICE.
I read that supposedly the Lt. Governor of Mn is in those signal chats too.
truck, you’re mixing 3 different things into one story and trying to call it law.
Carry legality, alleged interference, and use of force aren’t the same thing.
He was tackled before they knew he was armed.
The weapon was removed.
He was on the ground.
He wasn’t holding a gun.
He was shot anyway.
So the permit argument is irrelevant to the moment that matters.
Even if he lacked a permit, that’s a licensing issue, not a lethal-force justification.
There’s no doctrine that says interference + firearm = lawful killing.
And saying you’re “not victim-blaming” while listing reasons why the victim caused his own outcome is victim-blaming, just repackaged as 'legal analysis'.
If the shooting was justified, argue the shooting justification.
If it wasn’t, stop laundering it through paperwork, hypotheticals, and retroactive fault finding.
That’s not legal reasoning, it’s narrative cover.
How long until someone asks where you read or heard that?
“Source?” seems to be the new “whataboutism” when someone doesn’t like the post. I heard the same thing.
Yes that's essentially what it boils down to. You just can't do what he did if you're carrying. The responsibility to stay out of those situations is repeated over and over again in any concealed carry class and it's just common sense on top of that. You run from conflict. The presence of the gun, no matter how legal it is, instantly elevates the danger in any situation you may get into. This shooting may be wrong on many levels, but it's just head in the sand stuff if you don't admit that the presence of his gun was a factor that led to the outcome. Whether it should have or not is a separate issue. It did, and not in an unpredictable way.
When I talk about carrying illegally I'm talking about gun free zones. I pay zero attention to them unless a place is truly controlled access with their own armed security. Short of that, I'm not leaving it in the car because you've got a sticker on your window. I'm sure I also violate laws on carrying where alcohol is served. If I'm out to dinner with my family, again, I'm not leaving it in the car because the place we're eating at is neighborhood bar and grill. If I'm going to the bar with friends to watch a game and drink some beer, sure, then I'm not carrying.
I don't have a primary source for him not having permit on him. Have heard it repeated several places but if it turns out to be untrue I would not be surprised. The bigger issue is him impeding law enforcement. The moment he didn't run from the conflict, stepped back out into the street instead of onto the sidewalk, carrying the gun became illegal whether the permit was present or not. Even if you want to argue thar he didn't impede, didn't resist, or do anything else illegal, the fact that he walked close enough to that line that we can debate it while carrying a gun is very stupid.
There's no right to block traffic, disobey orders to get back during law enforcement operation, or to try to help someone law enforcement is trying to take into custody.
Who were they trying to take into custody? And even if what you said is all true, that justifies lethal force? It's called you arrest the person. Not kill them.
Where in this thread has truck justified lethal force?
Agree that the permit issue is irrelevant to the things that matter, I only mention it because of the irony in people who insist on nuisance laws like that now pretending like they don't matter.
My thoughts are he did impede, the degree to which he did so is irrelevant. He did resist, the degree to which he did so is irrelevant. He did have a gun which agents became aware of before shooting him. The initial shot was likely negligent discharge. At this point the standard becomes whether or not the use of force was prompted by a reasonable belief that a threat of harm existed. That belief doesn't have to be correct, only reasonable. The officers firing don't even have to perceive the threat themselves and are allowed to rely on the report of other officers. If you're the agent, your argument is the person disobeyed an order, got between officers and someone they were trying to control, was resisting you, other officers were yelling gun gun gun over and over and a shot was fired. If 1 of 12 find it reasonable to fire at that point, these officers are going to walk.
I'm not telling you what I think should happen, I have very mixed feelings on it, but I watched this play out over several years in Louisville with somewhat similar circumstances and I think people need to at least try to understand why this might play out in a way that is not satisfying at all. I take no joy in it.
Fun fact. I worked with Breonna Taylor when she was killed. She was cool, good worker. Her old boyfriend that they were after was a problem and she would have been the first to tell you that. The one that shot at police was not. Nobody in this city cared for two months even though the issues were clear from the start and reported on.
Pit Row
Oops lol....
And even still I don't want to go so far as to say I'm justifying it, but I do understand how it might be done!
I would actually enjoy learning more about your claims, but I can't do that when you seem to make things up as you please. Oh well, I'll continue to not take your word for it. Stay tuned. Have a great day! Take care!
Your spinning your wheels. The goal posts have been moved so many times in this thread regarding lawful carry, facts have been disregarded, "gut feelings" are assumed truths, and some foreigner quoted Jon Stewart as a news source pages back, not realizing it's satire. These people aren't looking for truth, they are looking for trouble - and when they find it, immediately blame the other side.
Someone is feeding them license plate reader information too. It definitely seems like state employees are helping
How do we know he wasnt armed the first time? And they just missed it. I know people who live in areas the police are an hour away from if one if the 2 on duty officers are busy and they are always carrying a gun unless they go out of state.
If he planed on going to the protest and it wasnt a random event like the one reported in that article. It was a bad idea bringing a gun. But other than stepping infront of the peperspray , what did he do that warented the reaction by ICE? In any other protest in the usa that type of response by the police would never happen. There are plenty of hours of video of people showing up to protests with guns from protests that police never escalated into a fight.
Or that its not totally bs like at least half of the statement put out by christy nome?
Its funny how most of the time people on the right do not trust unnamed sources. I geuss its different when you want to believe what they say.
Its so sad that many of the people defending the actions of the ICE agents on here also thought it was not a justified shooting when that women was shot while breaking down a door to get into the capital on jan 6th. A clearly violent mob that attacked many police officers with flag poles and other improvised weapons. And yet only 1 person was shot. If you replace the response of capital police with the way ICE reponds I fear it would have been a bloodbath.
And thats the big problem. For me. Its exessive force. It might be technically justifiable. When is takleing somebody that is blowing a whistle an appropriate response? At that time all it was doing was putting more eyes on the situation by calling attentio to the chase.
I didnt see him resisting in any footage thats been shown. There is nothing that points towards him ever pulling the gun out. I hope they can admit this wasnt a totally clean shoot. And that it was not the right way of handling things.
I worry that if not. The next shooting could be some random person in the wrong place at the right time. They are grabbing people from stores while people are shopping. General public. Off streets . These days everybody takes video . If they do not try and cool things off its trending towards less justification for killing somebody. With more made up facts than what is visible when you watch the videos.
The lack of vetting and short training for people who have been in law enforcement could end up filling ICE with the police that have been fired for being some of the bad examples of police officers. And given a short training and set out to go wild. Or people who just want to go out and beat up protesters and immigrants . When they see that they can get away with attaking somebody that blows a whistle . And shooting somebody who is taking video and steps between the ice agent and a protester thats being sprayed with pepper spray.
They could have avoided all of this by not jumping on Pretti . The women was the aggitater. She wasnt the subject of the operation. In any other protest situation he walks away alive.
Its sad that the positive things that the MN national guard are doing isnt getting as much attension as they should be. I thought it might have been fake at first since it was so hard to find any coverage of it. I still wonder if it was a fake story that was re reported.
Not surprising that you have not heard what I and others have heard. The main stream media does not report things that do not fit the left wing narrative. Eventually the information will become too much to conceal and even you will hear about it. The lt. governor and others in the MN government have been directly involved in the coordination and direction of the ICE protestors in MN. I guess you heard it here first. Have a great day! Take care!
Any media you consume is the "main stream media"
Hth
hey look, some mainstream media reporting i agree with
why do you think trump would assume that someone could stoop so low as to stage an attack on themselves? odd
and yes, trying to help another citizen that was pushed to the ground by a paid agitator is obviously comparable to spraying an elected official with an unknown substance at a town hell. i can see how you drew that parallel! good job buddy.
I keep hearing that he was carrying illegally by the usual suspects. In what way was he carrying illegally? The only possible, legitimate answer anyone has given is that he did not have an ID on him. Which the only source for that information is a known liar in Noem. I never saw an officer ask him for his ID prior to the shooting. And even if he did not have it on him it is punishable by a $25 fine, not really a capital crime. Further, they wouldn't have known the ID status until well after his heart stopped beating if it is even true. Clarifying Minnesota’s permit to carry law following comments by federal officials
Then no idea what he is arguing for.
Manny, this “cause & effect” sermon would land a lot better if you applied it consistently.
On J6, people touching, pushing, and obstructing LEOs suddenly deserved 'nuance', 'context', and a lot of justifying the actions of the folks who were actually assaulting officers. Here, you’re instantly comfortable declaring assault, intent, resistance, and causality as settled facts, no nuance, no restraint, no skepticism. Same behavior, different politics, different standards. That’s not principle, that’s selective framing dressed up as 'reason'.
And you don't have to add a faux 'with respect'. You've made it clear with your claim of my 'dishonesty' that you have no respect for me, so why would you even try to pretend that?
Post a reply to: Not sure why the Minnesota Ice and Run thread got locked by the originator but.....