When to move up classes / Sandbaggers / Differences between C/B/A/Pro

I wish local tracks would just use transponder lap times to break classes into groups that make the most sense. Gate drop with the riders closest to you in speed. Have some separation with displacement and age, but not 30 separate classes at signup.

The vet classes r the worst . Big vet races there was a rider that won 50b every yr .  The 125 class is the best you can race 250a & 125 class in Wi.  Probably why it’s a Real fast class.  Nobody races 250a hardly.  I Love pro am races but 3k split with 2 classes is not much.  Cash cut off is what 10,11th?  750 per moto the winner gets 400 . The  fall has the biggest payouts Thx to Pastrana & AP7 for kicking in tens of thousands.  Can you believe only 2 riders do this .  More riders would move up if there was a insensitive.  In 98 you could make 4,800 a week racing twice locally a week. Now you can’t break even. 

I agree that if you’re consistently top 3 C class you should just move to B because top of C class are almost certainly good B level riders. 

In Aus you earn points for finishes at open events so race series going to multiple tracks etc once you reach a threshold your bumped up a class. I was bumped out too early as I started racing at 23 and could barely clear a tabletop in the beginning but I accrued points by random good race finishes plus I raced multiple series. I was bumped up in my 3rd season without a single podium at the state level. I was fortunate to get to ride with a couple of A grade guys who basically kicked my teeth in every single moto but I managed to latch on and build my speed and endurance. B level speed is higher however I found the consistency is the biggest factor between B and A. I would go to tracks I had never ridden or really tough conditions and flounder around like a beginner but then tracks I had raced or easier race conditions I could be 5-10 whereas my mates would be top 5 battling for podiums no matter the track or conditions. The other tough part in Aus is there is no B specific class, you race the pro class once you’ve pointed out of C which makes it tough to progress. I did manage to achieve A grade after a couple of seasons but never learnt to win or manage races until I was eligible for the vet class. 

Bingo that’s the crusade I’ve been fighting. It’s so far away from the thought process of all the heathens involved though.

Transponder lap times make sense in theory yes, but for a track owner to sit down on a chaotic Sunday morning after a 4 lap practice (that’s usually a zoo when you never get a clean lap in unless your out front) and dividide everyone by lap times, gender, age, etc is unrealistic too. And let’s be realistic, tracks aren’t going to eliminate classes at this point when people keep signing up and racing them. $$$$ Also regarding sandbagging, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, in my opinion LL causes most of the sandbagging problems I see locally. A heckuva lot of riders try every year and fail. They’re not moving to B if they know they’re trying again the following year. There’s gotta be some kind of separation between amateur national classes and racing at a local district race. 

Been this way for along time…..big accomplishment to qualify for LLynns, I get it, but is it really a big deal when you sandbagging? 

I think it a lot of it at least at least where Loretta's isn't a concern is that people just want to say they won their race on social media and to get a trophy. That chick your trying to impress or the guys from work don't know the difference between winning C class or A class. 

I always think its more impressive to get 4th in B class instead of winning C class but not for everyone.  

Software exists that can do that automatically, and it has existed for years in RC racing. I have not used MX race software but it is the same transponder system. Maybe LiveRC should get into MX. If they did you could watch moto scoring from around the country on your phone in real time and get results going back years.

No software needed, 
1st moto you get seeded to A,B,C Main based on your result. 
2nd moto is the Main, you race for a plaque.

Someone ask RJ and Max 

I like the idea of transponders but agree it would be challenging for local race series trying to maintain consistent class structure each round.   No easy answer. 

When I was growing up at Barona Oaks, they had an advancement system that I liked pretty well: transfer points. They would award a certain number of points for each podium finish (I think it was 2 for first overall, 1 for 2nd and 1/2 for 3rd.) Once you attained 5 or 6 points, they'd move you up to the next class. 

I have a slightly different perspective here in SoCal, because nearly everything is outlaw racing. "Expert" or "A" is synonymous with "Pro," so the Intermediate ("B") classes get filled with people who are stupid fast but don't want to turn pro. Thus, if you are not basically pro speed, you race Novice or "C." They have sort of made up for it by having Beginner ("D") and "Starter" ("E," I guess) classes though. You get kicked out of Starter the moment you win one. 

LL is a great race to race but it does cost a lot of $$$$ to go through all the steps qualifying and to race there.

MXSports has built a good tracking system to fight off cherry pickers.

Vet classes are vet classes going by age not level of C/B/A/Pro levels. It is what it is.

I could do this in 14 seconds with AI.

I agree that it's an inaccurate deal though, and if you knew they were doing this you could of course just sandbag practice

Ban big races for amateurs.

My biggest push to move up was when I got a 3rd in C class (I've had wins and other podiums before) I posted it online and my mate called me a pussy for not racing B. Moved up there and then because I fully agreed with him, my goal is progression and getting the most out of myself and you can't really achieve that sitting in a class you're comfortable in.

As others have mentioned, sandbagging can only be taken care of after multiple times on the track - multiple race days, etc.

If the B/C/D class trophy isn't worth any contingency or sponsor money, then sandbagging can be fought effectively within a few rounds. Stop paying the C class podium, enforce classes based on laptimes/finishes, and have multiple rounds to consolidate riders into a moto that makes the most sense based on who is there that day.

I’ve been dreaming about this for many years now. Have a global ranking system similar to pro tennis. On race day, set classes according to lap times, top 40 (or up to a certain percentage of the top guys lap time) goes to A, next riders to B, etc. 

You can never get rid of sandbagging, but this way doing it would hurt your ranking and those you beat would rank below you anyway so it doesn’t hurt them. 

Fucking love it. There’s a way to make it a series too. I sorted it out before, basically make last in b class worth more than first in c class points wise so even if you qualified for c one round and then b the next due to turnout or conditions, you don’t have to throw out your points for the year, you just would be rewarded for not sand bagging and racing in the highest class you can qualify for.

It’s not complicated, solutions are out there, but we will keep doing what we do because it’s what we’ve always done and god forbid you change something.

If you suggest a change you’re a pussy.

Call me a proud pussy then!

But seriously, yes you can make a championship with this system. Once you have rankings for every rider, they can be sorted by age group, area, district or whatever. For timed practice, use the global ranking to make groups.

Also, the points would be different depending on who you're up against, so a guy barely making the A group in a given area with lots of fast riders could be ranked close to the big fish in a smaller pond.

I believe in France they use a system like that to build the classes at national amateur events. Maybe someone from there could chime in and give us more info on how they work exactly.

Problem with advancement based on results is easily seen when you look at results and see 1-dnf, 2-dnf. Riders know how to game the system and either don’t race second moto or pull off on the white flag. 

...and Smith

Problem is, that first moto is sketchy AF.  You have kids out there blasting 2 minute laptimes, with kids running 4 minute laptimes.  My son has two broken bones in two different incidents as a result of this very issue.  We don't go to Mini-Os, or Daytona, or any of the bigger races where you have full gates where anybody can show up and race.  It's stupid.

I've done several races with that format and it wasn't sketchy at all, so Im curious to hear more details about your son's experience. 

How exactly did the contact happen?

I finished in the top 10 the year that Jeremy McGrath famously won the 125C class, but I don't think he was a sandbagger. He and I had both only been racing about a year and a half before Loretta's.

He block passed me every moto, and I had never been block passed before. I was used to passing riders on straightaways, like a gentleman. :-)

MC's talent, speed and racecraft were undeniable, even then, but he had only just started racing. That's not sandbagging, if you ask me, but anyone who has been racing a long time and drops back just to get a trophy is a total sandbagger. 

"The Goal" was always to turn expert, win money not plastic trophies.  There never was a Novice class, and white or black backgrounds look way better than yellow.  I raced Amateur Class, B for 1 1/2 years and gained enough points to turn Expert (A) while a still Senior in high school.

"Simple Solution"  =  Manufacturers should NOT pay contingency to Amateur and Novice classes.

The Loretta Lynn Amateur program causes a lot of the problems as well.  The Mini Dads make every local motocross track have 85cc (10-12) Limited, 85cc (10-12), Mini Sr (12-14), Mini Sr. (13-15 ), Supermini ( 12-15), Supermini (13-16) etc.  What used to be 250cc Amateur, B,  is now: 250cc B, 250cc B Limited, 250cc C, 250cc C Limited, 250cc C Jr Limited (12-17).

Most recent time was on Sx track at Mini-Os.  First Division race (out of 3 divisions - wtf) with I think 38 kids on the gate (they don't do full 42 on Sx - I think they limit it to around 38 or so, which is still too much).  My boy got into lappers around the end of the 2nd lap and one of them came up short on a double, with my son behind him and on the inside of him going for the pass right after the landing.  Well that kid's bike bounced off to the left, and my son landed right on top of it, causing a crash and ultimately a broken arm/collarbone.

Other experience was very similar, but I don't recall all of the details as it was a few years prior and my memory isn't as good as it once was.

Having that wide discrepancy in abilities on the track at the same time is unnecessarily hazardous for all involved.  There are reasons why Pros try to avoid public tracks and instead train at private facilities - this is one of those reasons.  

Imagine a world where the best riders wanted to move up from the JRs.  Imagine a system where Max would finally get his real shot when ET went out.  

LL shouldn't have C classes.  Giving a championship for best beginner class is just an award for best sandbagger.

For local races, fewer classes, fuller gates, longer motos.