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I didn't read all the replies, but I think you'll be able to accomplish quite a bit with bolt torque and motor mounts. I'd pull 1 bolt off the top motor mounts on each side first just to see if you can feel the difference.
On my 22, when it would flex and unload it was pretty much guaranteed I needed a change of underwear. The ride engineering 23.5mm clamps helped a ton without any negative consequences on that glorious turn in prowess they have. If the bolt removal goes in the wrong direction, it might actually be flexing too much and it's the undamped release that you don't like. Good luck and keep the rubber side down.
Makes sense if the frame is too flexible, more power twists the frame more so you get more spring back. Add in more bike weight and larger riders equals even more flex.
Hey guys !
I've been in the same situation with my CRF 250 2023. I already talked about that in other threads. From my experience what i've found out.
- Chassis is like this, you won't be able to change it even with all the work and putting the price. The 2025 is already less rigid than previous model. The lawrence brother already had those customed frame before the 2025 model where they made the chassis stronger with some welding.
- The bike is really complicated to balance and setup from track to track and to different condition. Each time you go ride it will feel different. Playing with the suspension can help but still the issue is from the chassis, so you cannot get totally rid of it. The best thing i would suggest is to take note in a excel or something to track your settings and work with it.
What i've done to feel better and what i would not suggest
- I was surprised to see that so many people ride a high sag, i just saw tomac interview on gypsy podcast and as he mentionned, you need to have that front down. The things is with this honda, the front feel is really bad stock. So what i would say that really worked well for me, i run a low sag (something like 97). To find the sweet spot i would go down and then going a bit higher to feel everytime the difference. 105 mm feel really terrible for me and i feel my front is really bad, always have also arm pump when running this sag. OFC all personnal preference but i would suggest you guys try if you feel the same.
- I have a custom settings in my fork, my suspension is like a guru and said he put a piece in it and it really helps with the front feel, if you have a good suspension guy, you should do some revalve maybe. Also opening a bit the shock rebound helped that bike breath. A lot of time people go right for the fork when they have bad feeling, they feel it too stiff and they open the compression on the fork. You can also a bit play with the High speed, i went just a bit stiffer on this one.
- Something that might really help also is putting less oil than recommanded. I know that in Europe, the engineer were putting less oil in those forks, apparently they even say it was making a huge difference.
- I would really not suggest changing the linkage as it will deform the shock, also keep those bearing greased.
Never tried trimple clamps, it might help but it cost a lot of money, i would suggest you guys to stay as close as stock as possible and avoid wasting too much money because you might get dissapointed if you do and don't get a good result. I guess this bike is really light and fun and that's maybe why also it doesn't help with stability and rigidity. YZF is better for that but you won't have as much fun.
I hope i was clear because i'm not native in english but yeah, i hope this thread keep evolving and someone find a miracle solution even if i believe it's not really possible.
some things that at this place in the thred may be missed........
This harshness I feel is at any speed and any suspension setting and any reasonable tire pressure (from 8psi to 15 has been tryed). It does seem to be in the chassis and my experience (in design and development (decades) in structural resonances issues gives me little hope that the issue will be overcome without a major change of some kind. I do hope very much that this doesn't prove to be the case because I really like the way the Honda handles (light feel, good front end feel, flickable, and it carves as if on skis from your core) very good stuff BUT.....
you can feel the harshness just ridding slowly in the pits as you ride slowly over the small rocks / bumps. Its not an issue with ridding too low in stroke
You can feel this harshness even with all clickers and high speed comps completely blown out to max soft. Yes its gets worse as you stiffen things up BUT as said its still there even with all things blown out
the harshness is isolated to the rear only. the front seems just fine. Maybe they stiffend the front of chassis enough to tame the wag there but now have an unbalanced softer rear that is exacerbated by a stiff front??? thinking out loud here....
SAG, yes I have run from around 100mm to about 107mm. For sure the harshness is noticeably better at 100 than say 105 BUT its still there and its still not good enough
I have not done torque changes or bolt removals yet. I have done ths in past to other bikes and IMO its always been a small change at best, not a fundamental change in character
The stock forks dont seem to ba the issue at all. In fact these are the most UN Sowa like forks Ive ever experienced. They had ZERO mid stroke harshness and slap down landings are so plush it freaks' me out the lack of feed back on landing. They are too soft for anyone but a novice. I had to put 60cc of oil in outers AND run the rebound clickers to only 3 out from full hard to get a crossover effect for compression damp to get hold up. The comp damp clicker really does little and only makes things worse.
We have I think 3 others that have posted here now that feel same and have had their suspensions redone. All so far are in winterland and have not had opportunity to test. If they all report back we will have a solid base to make a judgment. I hope they report
The eye opener is jumping off the honda onto the 25 yz450. Its a truly striking difference and I dont exaggerate ! even though the yamaha is stiffer it feels waaayyyy plusher. It like getting a second wind after the hondas beat down.
I would just sell the Honda and ridde the yamaha BUT the yamaha has a vauge front feel, doesnt carve like the honda,tends to fight ya more at tip in, and feels heavy in motion and in the air by comparison. The yamaha simply takes more work and force to put it where ya want it. The honda is more effortless in its moves, maybe too much at times. Oh btw I have not felt the honda head shake yet. Ihave definatly felt the yamaha wiggle scary at the end of fast straights.
I havent yet done much setup on the yamaha so we will see in the spring how that goes.
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Graeme Broughe. He's a suspension guy in SoCal.
The work he did on my 23 was magical IMHO. The bike went from something I wanted to give away to one of my favorite Hondas of all time.
Good to hear...
Now, I dont mean to be overly aggressive here BUT I am an engineer and will require a bit more specifics if your willing
I have no trouble believing that the suspension is better, BUT what can you say specifically about the rears harshness.
1- Did you also experience a harshness in the rear requardless of setup
and if so.....
2- aside of the suspensions overall performance, did you feel a solid improvement in that harshness
again not simply talking about overall suspension action but the strange harshness thing
btw does anyone know??
the number of thumbs down I see seem strange. The consistency does not seem natural of driven by rational thought
Any thoughts on that? Not a regular here but Im preety good at seeing unusual patterns
The thumbs down are from people who think you're trippin out.
I haven't given you a thumbs down.
Tbh I think you’re letting your engineering background over analyze how to fix the bike… if you don’t want to spend money on getting the suspension to someone who does it for a living fixing the feel of bikes and has way more experience doing so, than ride the Yamaha as it’s probably the best stock suspension you can get. . If you want more feeling buy some triple clamps. It will make the front end feel more precise on the yamaha..
harshness riding through the pits to the track is irrelevant, how it feels at speed and on the track is what you should be dialing in.
The Honda has been the “racers” bike for the last iteration and this one as you have to go fast on it to make it work right or be a bigger guy to get the chassis to break in and ride through the snap.
End of the day just go ride the thing and make adjustments to where it feels the best.. have a reputable tuner revalve/respring the suspension. That will make a huge difference. If you don’t like it sell it and ride something else, might not be the bike for you. Luckily we have a lot to choose from. And more bikes coming out this year.
The industry seems to be filled with snake oil salesman's who selling their products/services with out any scientific proof that those modifications have any actual positive effect on rideability. As an engineer myself I totally understand where lowmass is coming from. Often sensation of better rideability after some modifications is just a placebo effect and not an real improvement.
I heard a story about a Finnish suspension mechanic who was working for Joel Smets at the time being frustrated about Joel's frequent complaints about his suspension setup during winter testing. The last change the mechanic made out of frustration to Joel's forks was only a switch of an adjuster knobs color. After that the mechanic told Joel that those were special "new" fork built for him and Joel went out on the test track with those. After some laps Joel came back to to the pits telling those "new" forks were perfect. He ended up riding with that setup for the whole season and winning open class world championship without knowing that those "special" forks were just the same old forks with different color adjuster knobs...
your speaking without knowing history or facts.
Its often unwise to blow your own horn but unfortunately the way people reason today there are times you have to.
My "experience" is such that Governments and Universities from Eu, Asia, Australia, and all over the US have hired me to come and get their PhDs and doctors of greatness back on track, Largely with issues that have a direct relation to structural issues. Much of the work has been damping and structural resonance control on instruments that measure movements in microns. I have repeatedly won contracts and patents simply because I know BS when I see it and customers love it when ya crush there difficulties with practical answers. The clean shirts hate me because I do not have degrees from all the right places AND they really hate it when their boss hires the" farmboy" with bloody knuckles to come in and "fix it"
.
Another side has been development in controlling unwanted wiggles in audio transducers. You want an engineering and development beat down? go ahead and dive into that arena and try to develop something great using practical means.
As well I likley have more years on bikes than many here put together. Im not a young guy.
Now that Ive made a fool of myself I will add this. I have no problem spending money on a reasonable likely hood of a fix. However there are two problems...
1- so far no one has directly addressed this issue with a "yes" we understand, agree, and do have the fix( Ive been in contact with many outside this forum) The "reviewers" are either not competent OR are in career preserving silence mode.
and
2- so far my past experience demands a big red flag up on this one. And that ability has served me far too well over the years to ignore
I press this issue for two reasons
1- I love the new honda nearly everywhere and believe it has serious potential IF this specific issue can be dealt with to a reasonable level
2- I love truth and the way it forces change
BTW...
"harshness riding through the pits to the track is irrelevant, how it feels at speed and on the track is what you should be dialing in. "
The phenom is identical. In the pits slow over chop and at speed on the track. Exact same feel. Its very similar to the harshness many of us felt in the 2016-2022 sxf chassis rear. The issue can be ameliorated well enough with lighter settings and or a sag setting that makes a tall bike even taller, but I am able to run with the local fast guys at at this speed ya need way more control than light damp settings can afford AND while the low sag numbers defiantly help this issue I seem to be in the "flat seat" camp. Meaning I dont feel comfortable on a chassis with a tall rear end. There seems to be two camps, guys that like a flatter chassis and those who are comfortable on more angled seat thats rear high.
This is soooo true
I do a lot of loudspeaker development. The ability to be deceived is epic in this area. You can listen to a new design, get up to take a piss, sit down to listen again and it sounds different. Add some shinny parts and its the same.
Newbes in this arena are constantly frustrated by environmental and emotional changes interfering with reality. The mind is very complex and only years of failure can school ya. Academic knowledge and test equipment are great BUT its experience and years of repeated failure followed by success (often by accident btw! a whole other reality to humble you) that can humble even the smartest leaning too much on their own understanding
Untill you have actually been through a solid development cycle you really have no idea how difficult it can be to make somthing to a high order, especially when you have to do it without simply throwing complexity at it
Have you talked to Mark at REP Suspension? That is who I would try. He has made comments about the current KTM frame (on Pulp if I remember correctly) so he is looking at these things. You probably need to talk to a Kawi or Yamaha engineer. They seem to have had the most consistent (best) frame feel over the past few years.
I have
Mark has been helpful and IMO one of the best I have dealt with. My first encounter with REP was dealing with the new KTM chassis.
Another that has been great is Billy at Luxon. They have even sent me prototype link parts to test on the 2025 SXF'. I would recommend these guys to anyone AND if ya ride hardpack chop I recommend their Knuckle on the 2025 sxfs
There are some good and honest guys out there that should get your money. However Im not sure anyone has yet overcome the specific issue Im talking about here AND some I have talked to have even said it is unlikely this specific issue will be overcome. (no I will not say who)
Pay it no mind - there are some on here who automatically give a thumbs-down to any post they read.
Consider it a badge of honor (and not a reflection of your post quality) and move on.
It's really not even worth noticing... unless of course you accumulate 100 of them within a 30-day period... at which point ML doubles your monthly membership rate. 👍
I've told this story before - back in the early '80s we were at a track and Rodney Barr kept complaining about his rear suspension. His dad asked him what it was doing and then reached under the seat where the rebound adjuster was and told him to go try it now. After a couple of laps he came back and told his dad that fixed it. One of the guys in the group asked Bobby what he'd done and he said, "Nothing. I turned it one way and then the other, coming right back to where I started. I knew it was all in his head."
The power of suggestion is a very real thing. 😄
So here is my experience… I currently have a 23 crf450RWE.. it has all the “known fixes”. For this bike. Works great at this point still has a slight bit of harshness but this chassis has a design that causes it. And the 23-24 bikes had updated “stiffer” sections around the head tube. My Akit suspension is stiff and it takes effort from me to get it to move. I need to ride it fast.
I rode a 25 crf450 with suspension from pro circuit that was over sprung for my weight and I felt no such harshness riding in the pits or on the track. And this was on a pretty square edge sand track. Every one has a different experience. I’m a 40+ vet B rider at 220 lbs. even from what the pros say, they like to be ass end high. I believe there is a setting in the suspension where you can nearly eliminate the rear end harshness that you are feeling. You’re just going to have to work with a suspension tuner to do it.
I also have a bike which is the total opposite end of the spectrum.. a 24 triumph tf250x. This thing has zero harshness and still tracks well and turns well and has good front end feel.
There aren’t any HRC engineers on here so I’m not sure the answer your trying to find? Number 1 thing is to go up a spring rate your comment “SAG, yes I have run from around 100mm to about 107mm. For sure the harshness is noticeably better at 100 than say 105” is further indication along with your fork settings your undersprung and riding around in the harsh part of the travel, especially on the rear. It’s hardly fair to evaluate a bikes performance with out addressing the simple setup items that will allow you to get a real understanding of what its doing first. There is never a perfect solution when it comes to testing it is all small increments and comprimise and springs are a hell of a lot cheaper than a new bike! Spring it up, give it a chance to perform better or sell it and just ride the Yamaha your not going to find a magic cure here.
Pit Row
Are you talking about the Luxon N2D knuckle? Did you have to revalve the 250 sxf shock to make it work?
Honestly, I'm not :test rider".I'm an old slow vet . All I can say is the bike was wretched harsh before I got the suspension done and now it's a dream to ride. The only other thing I changed was the clamps. 23.5 RE clamps. I'd recommend you talk to GB. He's a great dude and loves talking suspension. I'm a knuckle dragger who just wanted to share his experience in hopes of helping someone else out who had similar issues.
"your undersprung and riding around in the harsh part of the travel, especially on the rear. It’s hardly fair to evaluate a bikes performance with out addressing the simple setup items that will allow you to get a real understanding of what its doing first. "
Its hardly fair to evaluate an entire thred by not reading it. At least I hope you havent read it? If you have then you have a more serious issue
The most honest and straight up and useful response weve seen yet here.
Thankx Zero
btw Im a knuckle dragger too
yes thats the one
I tested on the 2025 350 SFX
It was designed to need no valving or spring change.
Its not a huge change in the links curve. Its subtle but imo was effective at its intended purpose. A bit less steep(softer) in first part of stroke with a bit more ramp up at end for better bottom out resistance. I found it worked a bit better than the stock knuckle in hard pak and chop, yet when I went to deeper gooy stuff all I had to do was increase the high speed comp just a touch. Overall I thought it was a tad more versatile than the stock unit. Not a game changer but a useful improvement.
BTW
I also put a spacer 2.7mm in my shock to lower rear of seat about 5mm. This leveled the seat out and got rid of the stink bug. IMO KTM should simply cut the subframe a couple mm the get a flatter chassis. The problem I ran into with simply lowering the rear 5mmm is a head angle that doesnt turn all that well. If your ok with the seats angle, as many are, or think they are?? ha Then no issue. I would have eventually tryed cutting the subframe ( only need to oval holes and tilt down a bit) BUT I found the 350 to be just too weak for my taste so I sold it.
Yes I have commented a few times now from the very beginning thanks for noticing! Your going around in circles waiting for someone to give you the magic solution which doesn’t exist. You’ve added 60ml of oil to your forks and wound the clickers all the way in which is too much, your compensating for the fork springs being too soft. As I quoted you’ve tried numerous sag settings and 100mm was actually improvement on the harshness but you don’t like how high the rear is… because your forks are too soft! If you go up a rate front and back you will keep the same ride level but be operating in a better part of the stroke. As I’ve said earlier in this thread I haven’t ridden the 25 Honda but I raced Hondas for the last 6 years in A grade so I’m well aware of the positives and negatives of these bikes. I’m 10 pounds lighter than you and would still go up a rate in the front on previous models. I now race a yz450f so I’m also well aware about of the short comings of this bike in comparison however the strengths and track toughness of the Yamaha outweigh the negatives for me. On the blue bike I actually went down 1.5 rates on the fork and 1 rate on the shock which fixed most of the handling issues. Like I said, give the bike a chance by going up on springs or let it go.
The feeling never goes away. You get a bike with precision handling, light weight, great response, and a good brain/bike connection. The trade off is that it’s sometimes reactive and the edges are a little too sharp. Just learn to live with it.
Your bike didn’t like to turn because a 2.7mm shim lowers the seat 28mm not 5. Between this revelation and the 60ml of fork oil added to the showa forks I think the new Honda is probably fine and this is a you problem.
Is there really a 10:1 ratio in the initial travel on a 350SXF?
The shock shaft travel is 110mm so by shortening by 2.7mm you have reduced the height 2.97%. I remember I got my suspension tuner to put a 1mm shim in to test once and I didn’t believe him when I rode the bike it was so drastic I thought he had put a 10mm in by mistake. I went back to stock immediately and it was lesson learned!
So, if the rear wheel travel is approx. 300mm, aren't we looking at more like a 3:1 versus 10:1?
2.97% of 300mm is about 9mm.
If your sitting on your bike with a 2.7 shim in your shock you are 2.97% lower than standard if your sag measurement is the same. Your calculation is how much suspension travel has been lost.
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