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You would think so, but if you zoom out it's pretty obvious that bicycle companies aren't printing money with those price points so either the margins aren't as big as it would seem or the volume isn't. I think the big bike companies are supported by bread and butter <$2,000 bikes of all types and the mid to high end stuff is not making nearly as much. That's why smaller companies that only build mid to high level bikes like Santa Cruz have stayed similar sized for a long time.
The bike industry also has different dynamics. It's a lot more competitive marketplace with 10x the manufacturers as dirt bikes and replacement parts are generally sourced from 3rd party or OEM suppliers not the OEMs themselves.
it’s the retailer doing all the mark up, the bike manufacturer probably had tighter margins. This is one of the reasons we started to see the DTC mtn bike brands pop up.
Nope ,paid well under retail from Ziegler on Michigan.
You are incredibly high to think the margins are anywhere near that. This is a great example of someone speaking out of their ass on a forum without any actual knowledge.
The Shop
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Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
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Yeah that is the problem that all these motorcycle brands (and other non-traditional bicycle brands) have had. They are just way too many years behind in design. And anyone that is actually into the MTB world and knows the basic stuff about geometry and components will not buy the Yamaha or GasGas E-MTB. Unless you don't care and can buy the bike for 2800€ or get it for free with your dirt bike purchase.
In my opinion there haven't been any real advancement on motocross suspension in past thirty years. Only thing that is truly changed is stiffer setups which is needed on current motocross tracks. Air forks and other variants like SFF, 4CS etc.were created for cutting production costs and have not offered real advancements in suspension performance.
I've been lately thinking what caused KTM's situation and what they could have done to avoid it. I came to a conclusion it would have been really difficult to avoid it. The share holders want to have an infinite growth and KTM has done everything possible to achieve that.
In off-road market KTM maxed out their share of the market before 2020's. Then they tried to increase profit per sold unit by cutting the production costs what turned out to be a not so good decision in a long run.
Whith Bajaj and CFmoto they tried to increase their share on street bike market and especially in the only market area where the motorcycle sales are still growing which is the Asia (Japanese manufacturers have done huge investment on that market too) Apparently taking over the Asian market is not gone how planned either.
They also entered in the bicycle market because that was grew hugely during the covid years and saw that as an option to grow their business. Unfortunately after Covid years bicycle sales have been plummeting.
I think they made some risky choices but there weren't many options to do things differently to keep the company growing
Snowmobiling may be more niche than dirt bikes but the way snowmobilers organize, contribute, and remain cohesive towards goals for the good of their sport slays our sport. You look at any snowbelt state and they have thousands of miles of government approved, funded, and supported trails. I worked with our state's department of conservation and natural resources and snowmobile groups received hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants every year for any number of projects/equipment. In many areas that didn't get shit for snow. I don't remember any dirt bike clubs or groups even asking for a grant for anything in my time there.
My take on the above - Snowmobiling doesn’t alter the land beneath their seasonal terrain, nobody else is out there during their season, to protest their existence for the most part , they aren’t what most would consider loud and obnoxious, and lastly it’s safer so the local authorities aren’t responding to accidents as often - staying under the radar.
Not to stray from the topic but I have some thoughts about the MTB stuff. While I agree with you in some ways, I also sort of disagree too. As someone who also is pretty heavy into bicycles, I think the MTB industry in general is very much a product of group think. There are so many sweeping changes just for the sake of change. And the riders fall for it and quickly abandon what they are on because they feel like they "need" to be on what is currently the trend. And to some degree, that is probably why the industry as a whole is in a bad spot right now. I have a '22 Specialized SJ Evo carbon and it's a nice bike. I personally think as a 29in wheel, it's not as fun as it should be, for the type of bike that it is. I would rather have 27.5 in that type of bike, but 27.5 isn't trendy right now. I also have the Yamaha MTB and while the geo is a bit unique, a deep dive into the design involved and ride one, they actually did a wonderful job with that bike. It snaps around nicely, the weight balance is amazing. It does everything very well aside from really gnarly Enduro type stuff. For the price point, it's a great bike. But ppl just didn't give it a chance because it fell outside of what is on trend in the MTB industry. The main engineer behind that bike was a MotoGP M1 engineer. They brought some great ideas to the table with that frame and I have a hard time thinking that everything they tested, with their budget and knowledge, is "behind" what a lot of these small boutique bicycle brands engineered. So maybe it was smart for Yamaha to exit the industry, because that's just the nature of the MTB industry and they aren't going to change that. That doesn't mean the bikes are "behind" or bad. As for the KTM bikes, I haven't personally ridden them or know the history. But given what we both recognize about the MTB customer base, it's likely that they won't be accepted easily by the masses. I'm not sure that's the bike's fault as much as the attitude of the MTB industry as a whole. But Yamaha is stepping away with just 1 performance model (with variations) being made, where KTM really invested and is hurting in part from that move.
Why do you think it's safer? I don't know, maybe it is. But just anecdotally, where I live you hear of quite a few fatalities each year - much more than dirt bike fatalities. Granted, we also have many more snowmobiles in the winter than dirt bikes in the summer. It seems like damn near everyone has a snowmobile here. Given the performance capabilities of the machines now, it's hard to think of them as safe, especially when couch potatoes are riding them, often after a few beers. I know a few guys with 800 2 strokes. These machines are wicked fast.
I admitted I’m going off memory, but I know roughly what the discounts were on pro forms that employees could access at the time and what the business was selling them for and it was around double. I also had access to what our costs were vs what they were listed at and I recall it being around what I said.
Generally store markup represents 30-50% of the retail price so I don't think you are too far off. Generally apparel is closer to 50% and hardware closer to 30%, but It varies by industry.
"Around double" would be a 50% margin, not 100%. The general margin is around 40% or less and high end bikes are less than that....much less in some cases. I am not calling you out specifically, it's just irritating when everyone thinks the industries are out to get them or "Feld is making too much money" "Honda has plenty of money and should pay local tracks to stay open" or other dumb shit like that.
Good post, you are correct about the group think in the bike industry and a lot of effort spent spinning wheels on changes that are marginally better at best. I just think bicycle buyers are either brand loyal enthusiasts or bargain shoppers and it's hard to get market share with either of them with what the moto companies offered.
I've been dealing with this arctic cat mess for a month or more. I was just able to place an order yesterday. As an Arctic Cat dealer, I won't lose any sleep if they go away.
Guess the times I have ridden them an flew off the snow seemed a lot softer than blue groove
Good summary
If you get off at 90 there is not much difference. Typically the trail is compacted and frozen. That is the idea behind grooming at least.
Most of the time the killer is a tree or another vehicle.
Pit Row
Thanks for the correction. I'm not in the camp of these companies are out to get us. Everyone needs to make money
NFM
https://www.gpone.com/en/2024/12/05/motogp/ktm-too-many-acquisitions-origin-of-the-crisis-but-motogp-wont-be-touched.html
That's what I was thinking. The high speeds and the trees. In rural Saskatchewan, a lot of guys ride in ditches and across fields and unseen barbed wire fences (which may by partially buried in the snow) are a huge danger.
You’re being charitable. The Pro Link suspension came out in 1981 (44 years). It is fundamentally the same suspension today. I guess upside down forks came a bit later.
As for the E bikes …. If you attend the yearly AIMEXpo motorcycle trade convention a large % of it has been E bikes for quite a few years. Probably about 25% of the show. From my booth I could see the KTM E bikes and there were quite a few dealers checking them out at the show.
Lots of racers ride mountain bikes so it would not be surprising if they rode or raced one of their brands MC they are likely to buy one of the E bikes.
I have even thought about getting a E mountain bike but I am not into riding E bike assisted bicycle yet.
Its been a week and while there is lots of maybe talk I still haven’t seen anything about the actual bankrupt.
In going bankrupt one issue is any of the companies supplying components used will be the ones getting stiffed.
I know when TR went bankrupt all the MC companies that TR distributed their products got burned. EIDave was one of them.
I was thinking about twin chamber USD forks but you are right about the rear linkage design.
If we are talking about open chamber cartridge fork design what current forks are based on that would be around -86 when Showa introduced them on a Honda CR250/500.
The current top of the line fork KYB SSS design is already 18 years old and biggest changes to them are stiffer valving and some internal aluminum parts replaced by a cheaper plastic parts
XC Skiers, snowshoers, and hunters among others compete with sleds for land use. The newer spiked track, high horsepower sleds can do considerable damage to land, especially in light snow conditions, in my area at road crossongs sleds have literally carved ruts in the paved roads. Alot of newer sleds running now are capable of well over 100mph easily with 800cc or more two stroke motors, add to that the bar hopping that goes with sledding makes it at least as dangerous as most power sports.
I'm not saying you are wrong BUT snowmobilers have an easier time doing that because it's perceived that they have less of an environmental impact since their tracks melt away with the snow each year. They aren't trampling on little flowers like us dirt ball dirt bikers.
There's a state park near me that has mountain bike single track that shares space with snowmobile trails and the trails close for deer gun season. These sports can coexist on the same property easier than OHV.
Take a look at what the national and local chapters of the Access Fund do for climbing and IMBA does for mountain biking, then look at the yearly revenue those industries are working with compared to the moto and ohv industry and you wonder what that money is used for if not maintaining a future for the sport.
A single track is a lot less impactful than SxS's with 34's.
^^ I used to do a lot of SXS stuff in CO - they are def F-ing things up for everyone. The Jeep and moto people are generally respectful of nature - Drunk Bobby in the rental RZR not so much.
Your post and team 403s prove my point. Dirt bike riders never look to themselves as their own enemy. Neither of you seemed to have even read my entire post you are responding to. I stated hundreds of thousands of dollars go to snowmobile clubs and groups in state grants every year and dirt bike riders or clubs DO NOT EVEN APPLY for similar grants.
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