Something Has to Be Done Now Or The Sport is Finished

12/4/2024 4:33am

My daughter and wife ride English in the equine sports world. That sport has what is called the Equine Activity Liability Act, minus California and Maryland. You cannot sue the barn or hosting event if you are injured or killed. Each state has their own variations, but it saves their sport. Horse rider related injuries are pretty rough, like moto. Zero idea how this could be a thing in Moto or where to even begin, but this is an example that an inherently dangerous sport could have protection. 

EXAMPLE "As provided in §44-20-104, an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person, which shall include a corporation or partnership, shall not be liable for an injury to or the death of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities." 

Timo
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12/4/2024 4:57am
I shattered both my ankles and broke my pelvis september 2022 at Glen Helen. The medical bills were pretty gnarly. The 20-minute ambulance ride to loma...

I shattered both my ankles and broke my pelvis september 2022 at Glen Helen. The medical bills were pretty gnarly. The 20-minute ambulance ride to loma linda was shocking in itself. Took 4 months to be able to walk again and ended up with a ton of metal in me and a fused ankle. Not once through that whole time period did I even think about suing glen helen. Ive gotten hurt at Elsinore, Perris and Cahuilla, again not once did I ever think I need to sue the track because my medical bills are high. I willingly went out on a track I knew I could get hurt on; therefore why would I sue? Your argument is dumb, high medical bills don't give you a pass to shut down a track. If you're going to race and ride dirt bikes get decent insurance and accept the fact your hobby is expensive and you will get hurt at some point. 

My argument is sometimes people are at risk of loosing their house with our shit health care and you shouldn't judge them if they decide to use our crappy legal system to try and dig outta dept. I'm not talking about a few broken bones, some injuries are life changing and you don't know what you'd do until it happens to you. I've crashed and broken my collarbone at one track, my shoulder blade and level 1 head trauma at another and I've also never thought about sueing anyone. My brother has had 2 life flights across the state and my parents had $50,000 of uncovered medical bills, they also never sued anyone. We are lucky though that my dad and now I have good paying solid jobs so we never had any letters from banks that if we don't pay they'll foreclose. If you ask anyone to their face they'd say they'd never sue, but our current situation says that some change their minds after the fact.

Really there's two issues, one our healthcare system is a patchwork of shit with some having pretty good, some not good, some god awful, and a legal system that feeds corrupt greedy lawyers. Imagine if instead of just covering for lawsuits, track insurance that covered people's medical bills if they got hurt participating in practice day or racing activities. It would be gap coverage for whatever someone's health policy didn't cover. It would cost more per person, everyone who rode there would have to sign up and pay a premium so it'd never happen, but it'd save tracks. There'd still be lawsuits if there's criminal negligence, like driving a tractor across a live track with blind jumps, but I'd bet there'd be fewer overall. 

I also think that clubs are the future of private track/trail ownership. Have a thousand families paying several hundred dollars a year for membership. It's worked here in Wichita since the 1940's.

 

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Bigshow
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12/4/2024 5:16am
WoodsRacer wrote:
I think Wisconsin has a potential solution with the Recreational Immunity law.  As I understand it a lot of the boat launches in Wisconsin are on...

I think Wisconsin has a potential solution with the Recreational Immunity law.  

As I understand it a lot of the boat launches in Wisconsin are on resort property.  So the resort owners were getting sued every time something dumb happened at the boat launch.  Eventually the resorts and others came together to push for the law they have now which pretty much makes property owners immune to lawsuits when people are on their land for recrational activities.  

This same law applies to motocross tracks in the state as well. The local tracks still have riders sign waivers which helps protect them but really its the Recreational Immunity law that is keeping them protected. It also greatly reduces the insurance they need to carry and in turn the cost from insurance. 

At least thats how I understand it from some chats I have had with some track owners in the state of WI. 

SPYGUY wrote:
I've seen other states that have something similar to this. Inexplicably, however, from what I've seen they often only offer the coverage when the recreational activity...

I've seen other states that have something similar to this. Inexplicably, however, from what I've seen they often only offer the coverage when the recreational activity is provided for free. If a fee is placed on the user, the coverage does not apply.

That is how the Ohio 2008 recreation law is. Can not sue the land owner for recreation on their property with permission unless you can prove negligence. Once a fee is charge-law no longer applies. Law came about a few years after hunting with written permission only came in. Land owners would not give permission to hunt because they where afraid they would be sued.

soggy
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12/4/2024 5:26am

Give it a rest

Zacka 161 wrote:
Oh you just wanna shut down any dose of reality also? Cool cool cool.  I guess keep on blaming injured people facing bankruptcy and don’t bother...

Oh you just wanna shut down any dose of reality also? Cool cool cool.  

I guess keep on blaming injured people facing bankruptcy and don’t bother considering the real systemic problem.  

Cool cool cool.  

Refer to my above post

Continue to watch tracks close for the same reasons then. The solution is staring us in the face. 

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The Shop

3strokemx
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12/4/2024 5:29am

What happens if a track doesn't have insurance?  

Will they be less likely to get sued if there isn't a large incentive for the lawyers?
 

WFO Dave
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12/4/2024 5:30am

UNDER TEXAS LAW (CHAPTER 75A, CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE), AN AGRITOURISM ENTITY IS NOT LIABLE FOR ANY INJURY TO OR DEATH OF AN AGRITOURISM PARTICIPANT RESULTING FROM Basically any activity on the property. It’s been litigated about 10 times and stood every time. It’s not widely used but should be by all land owners.

soggy
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12/4/2024 5:32am
3strokemx wrote:

What happens if a track doesn't have insurance?  

Will they be less likely to get sued if there isn't a large incentive for the lawyers?
 

They’ll just sue for the land or the equipment too recoup costs. 

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Johnny Ringo
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12/4/2024 5:35am
Zacka 161 wrote:
Oh you just wanna shut down any dose of reality also? Cool cool cool.  I guess keep on blaming injured people facing bankruptcy and don’t bother...

Oh you just wanna shut down any dose of reality also? Cool cool cool.  

I guess keep on blaming injured people facing bankruptcy and don’t bother considering the real systemic problem.  

Cool cool cool.  

Refer to my above post

soggy wrote:

Continue to watch tracks close for the same reasons then. The solution is staring us in the face. 

Yeah tracks don’t ever close in Europe where they have healthcare 

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WFO Dave
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12/4/2024 5:35am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2024 5:43am
Tim507 wrote:
This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It...

This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It would take a grass route effort to make it law and then have it posted at motorcycle tracks and events.

 

Oregon Equine Liability OR - Wall Sign

This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!

This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone that owns property in Texas regardless of activity.

image 229.jpeg?VersionId=jm2lIzy99F.WnJL
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zookrider62!
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12/4/2024 5:41am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2024 5:42am
Taotech wrote:
I will probably get lots of down votes, but I think the price to be able to ride a moto track for a day is way...

I will probably get lots of down votes, but I think the price to be able to ride a moto track for a day is way to cheap.    looking around at what other stuff costs to do,  I think a day at the track should be more like maybe, I don't know, maybe 60...70...140.    If the riders could come to terms with this then the tracks could stay open.  They could afford the increasing cost of insurance.   With the increasing cost of healthcare injuries and law suits are inevitable.  So most likely the price to participate will also go up.  For comparison a trackday on my superbike is avg 250 and often sells out with about 150 riders.   Sorry this is the cards we are dealt.   We have had it so good for so long.  The game is evolving.

JazzyJJ wrote:
I dont disagree. If they need to charge $50 or $60 per rider, it is what it is. People will spend that at the bar but...

I dont disagree. If they need to charge $50 or $60 per rider, it is what it is. People will spend that at the bar but bitch and moan about track fees.

The issue for me is that when track prices go up, the experience rarely does


I’m north Texas, most tracks were $10 when I first started going

The good tracks moved it to $20 because of a fuel increase, but so did the crappy tracks


Now most tracks are around $40, that goes for the groomed tracks with flaggers, and the tracks that haven’t been touched since 2001 and no flagger to be seen

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zookrider62!
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12/4/2024 5:43am
3strokemx wrote:

What happens if a track doesn't have insurance?  

Will they be less likely to get sued if there isn't a large incentive for the lawyers?
 

I think they would get sued and lose their land and equipment 

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Putterman90
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12/4/2024 5:44am
crt32 wrote:
Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails...

Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails around the track, kid hit a ditch and broke both femurs. He wasn't even supposed to be riding in that area. 

My kid is currently growing up on this track and made so many friends and memories. How can tracks survive if all it takes is for someone to break the rules, sue, win, and track has to close affecting all the families and riders. This keeps happening. 

ICE vs Electric doesn't matter, there is no saving tracks if personal responsibility does not come into play and tracks are protected. AMA HAS TO DO SOMETHING or WAIVERS HAVE TO MEAN SOMETHING or LAWS NEED TO BE ALTERED to protect tracks who open up to serve riders. 

The sport is in jeopardy—if tracks close, bike manufacturers lose sales, aftermarket companies can't sell parts, gear companies suffer, sponsors pull back from supercross, pros lose contracts, and the cycle continues.

What do we do? How do we solve this. I don't care about how comfy Deegan looks, how long the Stark battery last, or which helmet to buy, no offense to those who do. What I care about is having a sport for my kid to continue to enjoy, so how do we as consumers and an industry step up and get something done? 

We ALL sign the waiver before entering the track. If you don’t understand that motocross is sport just like any other sport and at any point in time there is an associated risk. We ride because we love it and the memories we build with our families at these tracks are comparable to none. 

If you don’t have good insurance that’s not the tracks fault, it’s your fault for not understanding the possibilities. 

I grew up riding this track my kids ride here all the time one of the few places near by (within an hour) that is still open. I pray Village given what they’ve done especially for the youth beginner riders and the minicross setup they have they pull through. 

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sandman768
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12/4/2024 5:49am

I can see public tracks ceasing to exist in the future. Tracks will be private only. There are attorney advertisements on Tv & radio 24/7, they have to perpetuate litigation to thrive, add in today’s get rich quick schemes mentality and you have what we are seeing now. Maybe public tracks will have to perform a background check on every potential rider or member to determine if said person is the litigious type. I have been involved with a few private tracks, just about everyone of them eventually shut down as the land owners were affraid of losing everything they had worked their entire lifes for. What if…. Track owners across the state or country formed an alliance and funded their own insurance coverage? With an application process that would require an inspection and outline hazards and safety concerns? Pay into a large fund and have fund managed/ invested by finance company ? Like an Insurance Company?…. Just thinking out loud as I enjoy my morning coffee….

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soggy
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12/4/2024 5:57am

Refer to my above post

soggy wrote:

Continue to watch tracks close for the same reasons then. The solution is staring us in the face. 

Yeah tracks don’t ever close in Europe where they have healthcare 

Quit being so obtuse. Tracks can close for any number of reasons but a large portion of ours close because of lawsuits over medical bills.  LACR, Elsinore, this place in Texas. A few more in this thread that have been mentioned. 

We are one of the richest countries in the world and spend trillions of dollars outside our borders. It’s easily do able here, but for some reason if we get healthcare we are socialist. Which if that word didn’t have the stigma it does most people would be for. 

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JazzyJJ
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12/4/2024 6:00am
Taotech wrote:
I will probably get lots of down votes, but I think the price to be able to ride a moto track for a day is way...

I will probably get lots of down votes, but I think the price to be able to ride a moto track for a day is way to cheap.    looking around at what other stuff costs to do,  I think a day at the track should be more like maybe, I don't know, maybe 60...70...140.    If the riders could come to terms with this then the tracks could stay open.  They could afford the increasing cost of insurance.   With the increasing cost of healthcare injuries and law suits are inevitable.  So most likely the price to participate will also go up.  For comparison a trackday on my superbike is avg 250 and often sells out with about 150 riders.   Sorry this is the cards we are dealt.   We have had it so good for so long.  The game is evolving.

JazzyJJ wrote:
I dont disagree. If they need to charge $50 or $60 per rider, it is what it is. People will spend that at the bar but...

I dont disagree. If they need to charge $50 or $60 per rider, it is what it is. People will spend that at the bar but bitch and moan about track fees.

The issue for me is that when track prices go up, the experience rarely doesI’m north Texas, most tracks were $10 when I first started goingThe...

The issue for me is that when track prices go up, the experience rarely does


I’m north Texas, most tracks were $10 when I first started going

The good tracks moved it to $20 because of a fuel increase, but so did the crappy tracks


Now most tracks are around $40, that goes for the groomed tracks with flaggers, and the tracks that haven’t been touched since 2001 and no flagger to be seen

Your view on this is completely wrong. We're not asking for an increase in experience here, we're asking that we can keep experiencing anything at all. If tracks can't pay the bills, they go away. 

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bluesmoke
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12/4/2024 6:13am

Out of curiosity. Which track are you referring to?

Village creek mx.

WFO Dave
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12/4/2024 6:29am
Tim507 wrote:
This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It...

This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It would take a grass route effort to make it law and then have it posted at motorcycle tracks and events.

 

Oregon Equine Liability OR - Wall Sign

WFO Dave wrote:
This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone...

This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!

This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone that owns property in Texas regardless of activity.

image 229.jpeg?VersionId=jm2lIzy99F.WnJL
image 232

 

soggy
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12/4/2024 6:33am
Tim507 wrote:
This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It...

This might be as route to consider,if you have a equine facility or equine events and this is posted most cases are a non issue. It would take a grass route effort to make it law and then have it posted at motorcycle tracks and events.

 

Oregon Equine Liability OR - Wall Sign

WFO Dave wrote:
This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone...

This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!

This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone that owns property in Texas regardless of activity.

image 229.jpeg?VersionId=jm2lIzy99F.WnJL
WFO Dave wrote:
  
image 232

 

Does moto fall under agritourism?

3strokemx
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12/4/2024 6:33am

I think they would get sued and lose their land and equipment 

What if the equipment and land are rented?

Zoom
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12/4/2024 6:35am

3 Palms near Houston has been sued numerous times. Biggest advantage they have is every rider has to purchase a 3 Palms Membership before they ride. Even if its their first time to ride there, and are from out of town. It goes from Daily Memberships to Annual. The membership form is several pages long and is very powerful against lawsuits. Lots of riders complained about it, but its saved 3 Palms many times in a court of law. 

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soggy
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12/4/2024 6:36am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2024 6:41am

I think they would get sued and lose their land and equipment 

3strokemx wrote:

What if the equipment and land are rented?

They’ll go after the land owner. But no land owner of sane mind would rent or lease there land for a moto track without said leasee carrying insurance. The buck has to stop somewhere/someone is responsible.  And it should be with the participant, but with privatized insurance there is motivation to litigate against the operator of the facility to recoup expenses.  And around and around we go. 

shortty761
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12/4/2024 6:42am

Something definitley needs to happen or we will have no tracks to ride, and the sport will die as we know it.

 

What I don’t understand is, how come when these cases do go to court, the owner of the track saying “Your honor, they signed this document acknowledging the risk and agreeing to the terms, then chose to ride the track.” 

How does that not just make it “case closed.”

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soggy
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12/4/2024 6:46am
shortty761 wrote:
Something definitley needs to happen or we will have no tracks to ride, and the sport will die as we know it. What I don’t understand is...

Something definitley needs to happen or we will have no tracks to ride, and the sport will die as we know it.

 

What I don’t understand is, how come when these cases do go to court, the owner of the track saying “Your honor, they signed this document acknowledging the risk and agreeing to the terms, then chose to ride the track.” 

How does that not just make it “case closed.”

Because waivers don’t cover negligence of the operator of said facility, and that’s usually what is argued. 

In the case of LACR you have former professionals on the plaintiff side saying this feature was more dangerous then it needed to be and several people complained and the operator didn’t change it. 

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WFO Dave
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12/4/2024 7:02am
WFO Dave wrote:
This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone...

This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!

This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone that owns property in Texas regardless of activity.

image 229.jpeg?VersionId=jm2lIzy99F.WnJL
WFO Dave wrote:
  
image 232

 

soggy wrote:

Does moto fall under agritourism?

It does as long as you do some sort of ag. Could be some goats a cow horses or an attempt to grow crops successful or not.

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Johnny Ringo
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12/4/2024 7:04am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2024 7:05am
soggy wrote:

Continue to watch tracks close for the same reasons then. The solution is staring us in the face. 

Yeah tracks don’t ever close in Europe where they have healthcare 

soggy wrote:
Quit being so obtuse. Tracks can close for any number of reasons but a large portion of ours close because of lawsuits over medical bills.  LACR...

Quit being so obtuse. Tracks can close for any number of reasons but a large portion of ours close because of lawsuits over medical bills.  LACR, Elsinore, this place in Texas. A few more in this thread that have been mentioned. 

We are one of the richest countries in the world and spend trillions of dollars outside our borders. It’s easily do able here, but for some reason if we get healthcare we are socialist. Which if that word didn’t have the stigma it does most people would be for. 

Pipe dream. Maybe my nihilism is strong this morning but nothing we can do matters. We’re all fucked

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early
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12/4/2024 7:08am
WFO Dave wrote:
This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone...

This! The law covers almost any activity on the property. It’s been tested many time and stood 100%!

This sign should be posted on anyone and everyone that owns property in Texas regardless of activity.

image 229.jpeg?VersionId=jm2lIzy99F.WnJL

Would be interesting to see the limits of the law in regards to a manmade racetrack or race.

Screenshot 20241204 100555 DriveScreenshot 20241204 100639 Drive.jpg?VersionId=YhDbh08Nlzt2suh996mEb4fD
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GrapeApe
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12/4/2024 7:15am Edited Date/Time 12/4/2024 7:19am
shortty761 wrote:
Something definitley needs to happen or we will have no tracks to ride, and the sport will die as we know it. What I don’t understand is...

Something definitley needs to happen or we will have no tracks to ride, and the sport will die as we know it.

 

What I don’t understand is, how come when these cases do go to court, the owner of the track saying “Your honor, they signed this document acknowledging the risk and agreeing to the terms, then chose to ride the track.” 

How does that not just make it “case closed.”

Simply put even valid waivers do not cover all situations, so the parties have to litigate the issue of whether the waiver applies or not.

In my experience there are almost always deficiencies in either the form of the waiver or the method of execution, and they don't hold up in court. I'm surprised insurance companies aren't more pro-active to help facility owners with their waiver programs.

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3strokemx
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12/4/2024 7:28am
soggy wrote:
They’ll go after the land owner. But no land owner of sane mind would rent or lease there land for a moto track without said leasee...

They’ll go after the land owner. But no land owner of sane mind would rent or lease there land for a moto track without said leasee carrying insurance. The buck has to stop somewhere/someone is responsible.  And it should be with the participant, but with privatized insurance there is motivation to litigate against the operator of the facility to recoup expenses.  And around and around we go. 

What if the land is owned by a LLC or trust that has no other holdings?  Would that be enough to discourage most lawyers from filing suit?  Would the LLC act as a shield to prevent the individual members' assets from being on the table?  

Worst case scenario they lose the land, but not paying exorbitant insurance premiums could offset the loss depending on the value of the land? Potentially could form a new LLC buy the land back at auction?
Maybe dump some used tires or other technical but not serious environmental issue to dissuade other potential bidders........

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MPJC
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Fantasy
12/4/2024 7:43am

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression that with the way your health care system works in the U.S.A., people often find themselves in a "sue or you're fucked" situation. Nobody gets a bill from the hospital in Canada, and lawsuits are much less common. I suspect a connection. 

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mvd61
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12/4/2024 7:53am
Mossy940 wrote:
A couple years back I got slid into at homeplate during a mens league softball game.Absolutely shattered my already fused left leg and ended up with...

A couple years back I got slid into at homeplate during a mens league softball game.

Absolutely shattered my already fused left leg and ended up with an 8 day hospital stay and a leg that, if broken again, will be amputated.

 

Within 10 days I had calls from multiple injury lawyers stating that they heard the guy that slid into me was not a part of the roster, therefore didnt sign a waiver, and the privately owned park is liable.....meaning a big pay day for me.

 

I did not follow back up. Accidents happen. I should NOT have been crowding home plate.

 

The injury lawyers were straight up astonished that I said I was not suing, because it was a "lay-up" of a case and people dont say no to money when they have hospital bills to pay.

 

The whole thing just straight up sucks

You’re a great person for that decision. Mucho el respecto. 

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