Is Red Bull KTM in big trouble?

endurox
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Garden City, ID US
12/3/2024 9:12am
LungButter wrote:
If you've been paying attention they've been trimming the fat for awhile now on the racing side.They've cut the Dakar program from 3 teams with 5-6...

If you've been paying attention they've been trimming the fat for awhile now on the racing side.

They've cut the Dakar program from 3 teams with 5-6 riders down to just one team with 2 riders.  That had to have saved some serious coin.

They cut their Factory Dirt Track team going into 2024, 2 time defending champ got fired without warning.

They cut a bunch of Factory Supported Teams in Europe that race various off road series.

They just cut Kailub Russell who has been with KTM literally his whole life.

All the fat trimming is good for a month of moto gp spending.. Bring back less expensive off road bikes like the 200 KTM with a carb on it and open cartridge forks. 

4
1
TalinH112
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Belgrade, MT US
12/3/2024 9:28am
DaveNoones wrote:

Motorcycles are now dying a slow death. 

Pretty much everything is dying a slow death in this economy. 

indy rider wrote:

Nah, just the mismanaged ones. The overall stock market is at record highs and has been on that trajectory for a while. 

 

🤦🏻

1
wrc777
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Fantasy
12/3/2024 9:38am
DaveNoones wrote:

Motorcycles are now dying a slow death. 

Pretty much everything is dying a slow death in this economy. 

indy rider wrote:

Nah, just the mismanaged ones. The overall stock market is at record highs and has been on that trajectory for a while. 

 

There is a saying: "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

7
12/3/2024 9:50am Edited Date/Time 12/3/2024 10:16am
LungButter wrote:
If you've been paying attention they've been trimming the fat for awhile now on the racing side.They've cut the Dakar program from 3 teams with 5-6...

If you've been paying attention they've been trimming the fat for awhile now on the racing side.

They've cut the Dakar program from 3 teams with 5-6 riders down to just one team with 2 riders.  That had to have saved some serious coin.

They cut their Factory Dirt Track team going into 2024, 2 time defending champ got fired without warning.

They cut a bunch of Factory Supported Teams in Europe that race various off road series.

They just cut Kailub Russell who has been with KTM literally his whole life.

endurox wrote:
All the fat trimming is good for a month of moto gp spending.. Bring back less expensive off road bikes like the 200 KTM with a...

All the fat trimming is good for a month of moto gp spending.. Bring back less expensive off road bikes like the 200 KTM with a carb on it and open cartridge forks. 

I am still laughing at the notion that KTM can be saved by making niche dirt bikes for Americans. We as forum members keep suggesting it, but it is completely ludicrous. They have grown far beyond that, and that's part of their problem. They need to be a global mass market brand to meet their debt obligations, not a niche offroad racebike brand.

They expect to sell 400,000 bikes per year to stay solvent. The entire American dirt bike market, all makes and models, is 100,000 bikes a year.

KTM's best selling models are small bore street bikes manufactured in India and marketed primarily to Asia and Europe. I don't think there is a product mix that gets them out of this, but certainly it would not be centered around anything that a bunch of dudes like Vitards would want.

16

The Shop

JMX82
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Hyllykallio FI
12/3/2024 10:14am
cwel11 wrote:
Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the...

Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the clock is ticking on that bomb. What goes up….

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

5
12/3/2024 12:27pm

How sweet would it be if all the moto folks from around the world banded together and short squeezed PKTM and then purchased new KTMs with our profits. 

2
12/3/2024 12:40pm
cwel11 wrote:
Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the...

Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the clock is ticking on that bomb. What goes up….

JMX82 wrote:
I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the...

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the dealer pipe line.

2
MxAddic
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NY US
12/3/2024 12:51pm

Be sure and watch until the end.

1
GrapeApe
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Mc Kinney, TX US
12/3/2024 1:38pm
MxAddic wrote:

Be sure and watch until the end.

Congrats to anyone that made it through that video. I woke up with my face on my desk in a puddle of drool. Have they slowed that guy's voice down, and, if not, is he okay?

By the way I don't know what you are referring to at the end? If it is the subsidiaries he is just wrong. Was there something else I missed?

1
1
12/3/2024 1:44pm Edited Date/Time 12/3/2024 1:50pm

With Austrian teams under duress, I am surprised nobody has identified the true cause of the downfall. 

It is clear as day: the one thread that runs through our sport for decades. The one universal truth.

pepe silvia meme.jpg?VersionId=Q5kHgwtV4tZv

 

The ebb and flow of our niche sport leads us to believe that teams struggle for many reasons. It's a tough business, after all. But that is simply cope for those unwilling to recognize the obvious pattern:

Death

 

I present to you the universal truth of MX: the harbinger of MX eternity, one whose shadow must be cast on a brand before its ultimate demise, but somehow manages to vanish at the scene of the crime. Tremble in fear:

214810  214803 craigheadshot

 

14
MxAddic
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Location
NY US
12/3/2024 3:19pm

"The insolvency involves KTM AG and its two subsidiaries – KTM Components GmbH and KTM Forschungs und Entwicklungs GmbH. While KTM AG’s filings report €1.8 billion in liabilities, the Alpine Creditors Association (AKV) estimates the combined debt of the three entities at €2.9 billion."

"Austria’s Minister of Labor and Economic Affairs, Martin Kocher, said to ORF: ‘I expect clear answers from KTM on how a favorable earnings situation and good prospects could so quickly lead to restructuring procedures’"

 

https://motorcyclesports.net/terrifying-ktm-ag-and-subsidiaries-face-e2…

1
12/3/2024 4:09pm
How sweet would it be if all the moto folks from around the world banded together and short squeezed PKTM and then purchased new KTMs with...

How sweet would it be if all the moto folks from around the world banded together and short squeezed PKTM and then purchased new KTMs with our profits. 

Not every moto folk is a KTM  fanboy.

1
JazzyJJ
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Nunya, WY US
12/3/2024 4:21pm
How sweet would it be if all the moto folks from around the world banded together and short squeezed PKTM and then purchased new KTMs with...

How sweet would it be if all the moto folks from around the world banded together and short squeezed PKTM and then purchased new KTMs with our profits. 

This would create an interesting option for them if it proved successful, they could just step in and dilute and raise cash that way

cwel11
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Orangeville, PA US
12/3/2024 4:41pm
cwel11 wrote:
Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the...

Love it when people look at the market and decide everything is perfectly fine. I’m just a dumb self employed contractor but I’m pretty sure the clock is ticking on that bomb. What goes up….

JMX82 wrote:
I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the...

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the...

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the dealer pipe line.

Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if that actually holds true. I gotta think in an already slow economic environment with the recent bad look of restructure/bankruptcy (whatever it is) I gotta think they’d need to do something to get bikes moving. As far as a 5k FE, I definitely think that’s a stretch but hey ya never know I guess. 

3
MxAddic
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NY US
12/3/2024 4:45pm
cwel11 wrote:
Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if...

Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if that actually holds true. I gotta think in an already slow economic environment with the recent bad look of restructure/bankruptcy (whatever it is) I gotta think they’d need to do something to get bikes moving. As far as a 5k FE, I definitely think that’s a stretch but hey ya never know I guess. 

Not unless it falls off the back of the truck.

1
soggy
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UT US
12/3/2024 6:18pm Edited Date/Time 12/3/2024 6:19pm
soggy wrote:
It sounded like he and the board members were in disagreement how to move forward. Could have been more of a your voted out but if...

It sounded like he and the board members were in disagreement how to move forward. Could have been more of a your voted out but if you want to save face you can resign. 

MxAddic wrote:
I don't think Pierer has much to worry about. Likely the reason he fired the other board members.It's hard to imagine this guy stepping down. He...

I don't think Pierer has much to worry about. Likely the reason he fired the other board members.

It's hard to imagine this guy stepping down. He thinks he owns the whole show.

I wasn’t talking about Pierer, just commenting on the Stellantis CEO. It obviously has nothing to do with this scenario. 

1
MxAddic
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12/3/2024 6:22pm
soggy wrote:

I wasn’t talking about Pierer, just commenting on the Stellantis CEO. It obviously has nothing to do with this scenario. 

I didn't think you where. I was just drawing a comparison. 

1
12/3/2024 6:31pm
soggy wrote:
It sounded like he and the board members were in disagreement how to move forward. Could have been more of a your voted out but if...

It sounded like he and the board members were in disagreement how to move forward. Could have been more of a your voted out but if you want to save face you can resign. 

MxAddic wrote:
I don't think Pierer has much to worry about. Likely the reason he fired the other board members.It's hard to imagine this guy stepping down. He...

I don't think Pierer has much to worry about. Likely the reason he fired the other board members.

It's hard to imagine this guy stepping down. He thinks he owns the whole show.

soggy wrote:

I wasn’t talking about Pierer, just commenting on the Stellantis CEO. It obviously has nothing to do with this scenario. 

There a parallels, both have been poorly managed in a changing environment.

soggy
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12/3/2024 6:53pm

There a parallels, both have been poorly managed in a changing environment.

Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. 

I don’t know the board structure of PMG as current but I bet pierer needs to show some results in 12-18 months to stay on. 

MxAddic
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12/3/2024 6:58pm

There a parallels, both have been poorly managed in a changing environment.

soggy wrote:
Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. I don’t know the board structure of PMG...

Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. 

I don’t know the board structure of PMG as current but I bet pierer needs to show some results in 12-18 months to stay on. 

That was actually my comparison. He got rid of any board member that could oust him.

12/3/2024 6:59pm

There a parallels, both have been poorly managed in a changing environment.

soggy wrote:
Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. I don’t know the board structure of PMG...

Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. 

I don’t know the board structure of PMG as current but I bet pierer needs to show some results in 12-18 months to stay on. 

Stefan Pierer owns 38% of Pierer Mobility AG, his board seat is safe.

1
soggy
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12/3/2024 7:01pm Edited Date/Time 12/3/2024 7:02pm
MxAddic wrote:

That was actually my comparison. He got rid of any board member that could oust him.

Could the creditors have a voice?

12/3/2024 7:21pm
JMX82 wrote:
I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the...

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the...

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the dealer pipe line.

cwel11 wrote:
Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if...

Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if that actually holds true. I gotta think in an already slow economic environment with the recent bad look of restructure/bankruptcy (whatever it is) I gotta think they’d need to do something to get bikes moving. As far as a 5k FE, I definitely think that’s a stretch but hey ya never know I guess. 

Yeah, I don't think it would happen, but It's fun to think about. 

MxAddic
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5308
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11/24/2022
Location
NY US
12/3/2024 7:28pm

There a parallels, both have been poorly managed in a changing environment.

soggy wrote:
Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. I don’t know the board structure of PMG...

Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. 

I don’t know the board structure of PMG as current but I bet pierer needs to show some results in 12-18 months to stay on. 

Stefan Pierer owns 38% of Pierer Mobility AG, his board seat is safe.

With only 2 board members it’s mathematically guaranteed.

12/3/2024 7:44pm
soggy wrote:
Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. I don’t know the board structure of PMG...

Yea of course.  But neither one is effecting the other. They are in a sense in there own vacuum. 

I don’t know the board structure of PMG as current but I bet pierer needs to show some results in 12-18 months to stay on. 

Stefan Pierer owns 38% of Pierer Mobility AG, his board seat is safe.

MxAddic wrote:

With only 2 board members it’s mathematically guaranteed.

There were 7 board members, staff cuts start at the top!

12/3/2024 9:15pm
JMX82 wrote:
I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the...

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the...

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the dealer pipe line.

cwel11 wrote:
Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if...

Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if that actually holds true. I gotta think in an already slow economic environment with the recent bad look of restructure/bankruptcy (whatever it is) I gotta think they’d need to do something to get bikes moving. As far as a 5k FE, I definitely think that’s a stretch but hey ya never know I guess. 

That is pretty normal for that time of the year. OEM’s like to spend more during Q4 then retract it for Jan/Feb (slow time of the year for most of the US) then ramp back up in March or April. 

This is also common in the automobile sector as well. Q1 is always the slowest quarter 

1
wrc777
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Location
Greenwood, IN US
Fantasy
12/4/2024 5:49am
JMX82 wrote:
I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the...

I think we are in the phase were music is still playing but everyone is quietly looking for the the chair where to sit when the music stops... 

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the...

I'm just waiting for the 5k 450FE.  I'm not sure that's realistic but it will be interesting to see how far they go to clear the dealer pipe line.

cwel11 wrote:
Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if...

Talked to dealer today and he stated they were told to expect no rebates on the 25 bikes in Jan or Feb. but we’ll see if that actually holds true. I gotta think in an already slow economic environment with the recent bad look of restructure/bankruptcy (whatever it is) I gotta think they’d need to do something to get bikes moving. As far as a 5k FE, I definitely think that’s a stretch but hey ya never know I guess. 

They probably don't want to cut '25 prices before they move out most of the '24s, and that seems to be taking a while at some dealers.

12/4/2024 11:46am
With Austrian teams under duress, I am surprised nobody has identified the true cause of the downfall. It is clear as day: the one thread that...

With Austrian teams under duress, I am surprised nobody has identified the true cause of the downfall. 

It is clear as day: the one thread that runs through our sport for decades. The one universal truth.

pepe silvia meme.jpg?VersionId=Q5kHgwtV4tZv

 

The ebb and flow of our niche sport leads us to believe that teams struggle for many reasons. It's a tough business, after all. But that is simply cope for those unwilling to recognize the obvious pattern:

Death

 

I present to you the universal truth of MX: the harbinger of MX eternity, one whose shadow must be cast on a brand before its ultimate demise, but somehow manages to vanish at the scene of the crime. Tremble in fear:

214810  214803 craigheadshot

 

Shit how true is that 😂

1
12/4/2024 5:47pm

Trucking is the first key indicator. Hows that going….? She trouble there, best start planning. 

2

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