To answer weeges question (ktm pod)

TAUTOG wrote:

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are...

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are much cheaper and simpler. 

soggy wrote:

That might have worked, but that is an extremely expensive avenue to go down because they don’t have mold or tooling or r&d on play bikes/entry...

That might have worked, but that is an extremely expensive avenue to go down because they don’t have mold or tooling or r&d on play bikes/entry level. No one was clamoring for ktm to make a crf230 competitor the rent way people are asking the Japanese to make a 350.  

Spoonguy wrote:

If a crf230 was 15-20lbs lighter with a hydraulic clutch, and brembos, I think they would sell quite a few.

early wrote:

Spoonguy is spot-on.It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government...

Spoonguy is spot-on.

It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government of the state couldn't care less.

The disorganization around the dirt bike and off-road industry is astounding given how big it is economically compared to other outdoor sports.

Pop Shmoke wrote:

On the podcast about ktm weege brought up the topic about how dirt bikes have become so advanced and so powerful that not only do they...

On the podcast about ktm weege brought up the topic about how dirt bikes have become so advanced and so powerful that not only do they cost a ton of money, but theyre also too fast for the majority of riders and 99% of riders could get by with much slower bikes. He mentioned how its very similar to the sport bike world where a gsxr1000 is waaaayy too much bike for the majority of riders. He said most dirt bike riders could get by with a crf230 with good suspension. 

This brings to mind actually what is currently happening in the sport bike world where companies like honda and yamaha no longer sell their 600cc crotch rockets. Yamaha is selling much less advanced but better on the street options like the r7 and r9. By most accounts these bikes are just better on the street than the r6 ever was. 

So weege brought up the question of what would it take for the dirt bike industry to do something similar and start selling bikes that are not as advanced and therefore a lot cheaper for the avg person? Isnt the answer to that question to remove the production rule from AMA racing? 

The reason why the production bikes have gotten soooo good is because the better the production bike gets, the better the race bike gets. If companies are now starting to go into hard times as well as people not able to afford these super powerful bikes, then is it maybe time to revisit the production rule? If they didnt have to race the oem bikes anymore then the companies would be able to have the super advanced factory bikes for racing and then something for the public that is mellower and cheaper. The only reason they need the finger followers, downdraft, 13,700rpm screamers is for professional competition. 

early wrote:

Spoonguy is spot-on.It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government...

Spoonguy is spot-on.

It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government of the state couldn't care less.

The disorganization around the dirt bike and off-road industry is astounding given how big it is economically compared to other outdoor sports.

Spoonguy wrote:

It was a amazing. You would get on these zoom calls and officials would talk about "hiking" trails they were going to build that were half...

It was a amazing. You would get on these zoom calls and officials would talk about "hiking" trails they were going to build that were half asphalt, cost millions, and absolutely destroy the surrounding enviroment for a projected handful of users a year. It made me realize the huge waste government appointees make spending other's money and making regulations - not laws. They would hundreds of thousands of dollar to snowmobile clubs in my state with few members and little snowfall. I could go on and on.

early wrote:

Spoonguy is spot-on.It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government...

Spoonguy is spot-on.

It's saying a lot that PA has maybe the most public land for off-road riding in the northeast US and the industry and government of the state couldn't care less.

The disorganization around the dirt bike and off-road industry is astounding given how big it is economically compared to other outdoor sports.

Spoonguy wrote:

It was a amazing. You would get on these zoom calls and officials would talk about "hiking" trails they were going to build that were half...

It was a amazing. You would get on these zoom calls and officials would talk about "hiking" trails they were going to build that were half asphalt, cost millions, and absolutely destroy the surrounding enviroment for a projected handful of users a year. It made me realize the huge waste government appointees make spending other's money and making regulations - not laws. They would hundreds of thousands of dollar to snowmobile clubs in my state with few members and little snowfall. I could go on and on.

joshd wrote:

I’ve worked for Civil Engineering firms my whole career. I see so much of this. It’s absolutely infuriating. 

Pop Shmoke wrote:

On the podcast about ktm weege brought up the topic about how dirt bikes have become so advanced and so powerful that not only do they...

On the podcast about ktm weege brought up the topic about how dirt bikes have become so advanced and so powerful that not only do they cost a ton of money, but theyre also too fast for the majority of riders and 99% of riders could get by with much slower bikes. He mentioned how its very similar to the sport bike world where a gsxr1000 is waaaayy too much bike for the majority of riders. He said most dirt bike riders could get by with a crf230 with good suspension. 

This brings to mind actually what is currently happening in the sport bike world where companies like honda and yamaha no longer sell their 600cc crotch rockets. Yamaha is selling much less advanced but better on the street options like the r7 and r9. By most accounts these bikes are just better on the street than the r6 ever was. 

So weege brought up the question of what would it take for the dirt bike industry to do something similar and start selling bikes that are not as advanced and therefore a lot cheaper for the avg person? Isnt the answer to that question to remove the production rule from AMA racing? 

The reason why the production bikes have gotten soooo good is because the better the production bike gets, the better the race bike gets. If companies are now starting to go into hard times as well as people not able to afford these super powerful bikes, then is it maybe time to revisit the production rule? If they didnt have to race the oem bikes anymore then the companies would be able to have the super advanced factory bikes for racing and then something for the public that is mellower and cheaper. The only reason they need the finger followers, downdraft, 13,700rpm screamers is for professional competition. 

Tiki wrote:

I've been saying this since the aluminum framed CR250. They build the bikes for the 1% of riders. Most of us could do the same thing...

I've been saying this since the aluminum framed CR250. They build the bikes for the 1% of riders. Most of us could do the same thing with a trail bike on a track if not do better because the bike would be so forgiving.  If they made a base bike on a Chromoly frame for minimal money, there would be more grass roots in the industry again. Ohlins, Showa and KYB or even WORKS Performance Shocks could sell suspension from A-Kit to basic USD. Remember Simons and Fox Shox? Frame builders would be created. there's so much infrastructure already for parts, the industry would flourish and the manufacturers would double if not triple sales. Use that money to lobby for riding areas. 

For that 1% bring back Works Bikes. 

Just a thought. 

 

hellion wrote:

If the problem is cost of entry, then yes we need carbureted two strokes from 50-125 at least, and with so kind of a cost restriction...

If the problem is cost of entry, then yes we need carbureted two strokes from 50-125 at least, and with so kind of a cost restriction (easier said than done) 

But isn’t the problem really these things we’re all holding in our hands, and the effect they’re having on our youth?

Spoonguy wrote:

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters...

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters, DMs, etc. to countless industry insiders, racing organizations, the AMA, manufacturers of bikes and parts, magazines, everybody connected to the sport I could think of to give me examples of the positive economic impact, health benefits. positive influence, etc. of dirt bikes and I only received one reply - from the Coombs family - nobody else. Government officials in my state in charge of outdoor recreation literally have no idea of the positive impact of the AMA motocross races, GNCC, AWARCS, Back country discovery routes, or anything remotely relating to dirt bikes that promotes my state or outdoor recreation within it. They literally do not believe you when you try to explain events like these to them. One executive appointee of the state I advocated that we needed to promote dirt biking in my state sent me flyers printed out with Harley riders on them road riding through state forests. Nobody, I repeat nobody gives a shit about dirt bikes, even the people who profit from them and ride them. Snowmobilers, UTVers, Mnt. bikers, equestrians, all organize, spend money ,volunteer, spend time, make concessions based on people's concerns, and advocate for their sport. Dirt bikers are too individualistic to organize, four stroke riders suck, electric dirt bikes suck, dual sport riders are pussies, you can't handle a bike like this, Triumphs suck they are just another KTM, on and on we denigrate our sport and others involved. Nobody is willing to make any concessions for inclusiveness or to make the sport less offensive to those it offends. While at the same time most of us won't do shit to promote it. This sport is doomed because of our own elitist attitude. If somebody says our bikes are too loud, maybe they are not an asshole, maybe the bike is too loud. If somebody says our bikes tear up the woods too much, maybe they are not an asshole either, maybe we could try less aggressive tires or adapt our riding styles to less damage. God as my witness, I tried for our sports behalf, I want my grandkids to love this sport like I do, but nobody gives a shit. Anxiously awaiting "the UTVs tear up the trails more than we do" narrative, that is not the point. The point is the public perception and the "friendliess" of our sport. When people think of dirt bikes, they think of Travis backflipping and pranging himself into a million pieces, or that half of pro racers in our sport can't finish a season without injury, when they think of UTVs they think of parents in a beer buggy with their kids in the woods.

FGR01 wrote:

Agree with most of what you said.  Except....  when people in PA think of dirtbikes, they think of idiots in Philadelphia riding around in huge menacing...

Agree with most of what you said.  Except....  when people in PA think of dirtbikes, they think of idiots in Philadelphia riding around in huge menacing packs of stolen bikes, blocking traffic and causing chaos.   Which is why PA recently passed that anti-dirtbike law.

This is why motocrossers and legitimate dirt bike people need to be pissed about wheelie boys.  Like it or not, the general public does not differentiate between them and us.