AMA Penalty PALA 250 Class - Let's hear it, Why 16 and NOT 38?

5/29/2024 2:33pm
CPR wrote:
As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some...

As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some situations.
So as others have said I think the best solution is to make it so the rider has to come to a complete stop at some stage while off the track before safely re-entering. 

Not a bad idea either. If you leave the track, come to a full stop, then enter when safe. Seems simple and relatively safe, but maybe there is another variable I'm not thinking of. 

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Jkawi
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5/29/2024 2:35pm
Cbrit95 wrote:
Why does the AMA insist on docking full race positions for seconds gained or lost? Dock the time spent off track from the overall race time...

Why does the AMA insist on docking full race positions for seconds gained or lost? Dock the time spent off track from the overall race time. If that puts you behind the guy that is behind you so be it. Losing full positions for maybe a second gained is ridiculous at this level with the data we have available. 

Gravel wrote:
So you’re saying that if a rider is off the track for 3 seconds, then they get docked 3 seconds? In other words, you lose all...

So you’re saying that if a rider is off the track for 3 seconds, then they get docked 3 seconds? In other words, you lose all of the time you’re not on the track? 
 

Add: “Off the gas when you’re off the track” (zero roost) and you have a winner!

This is actually one idea that I can't find issue with. Disclaimer, I haven't read further yet... sounds perfect. 

LungButter
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5/29/2024 2:37pm
Jkawi wrote:

This is actually one idea that I can't find issue with. Disclaimer, I haven't read further yet... sounds perfect. 

It would encourage them to go even faster while off the track.

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zehn
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5/29/2024 2:43pm
CPR wrote:
As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some...

As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some situations.
So as others have said I think the best solution is to make it so the rider has to come to a complete stop at some stage while off the track before safely re-entering. 

Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off.

The current rule is, in theory, sufficient. The way it is applied is not

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ATKpilot99
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5/29/2024 2:55pm
CPR wrote:
As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some...

As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some situations.
So as others have said I think the best solution is to make it so the rider has to come to a complete stop at some stage while off the track before safely re-entering. 

Why is re-entering at or near where you went off any less safe than some random spot down the track ?  How about a stop and go in the pit area next time around after an off track excursion ? Failure to do so results in a 30 second penalty.  

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Jkawi
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5/29/2024 2:58pm
Jkawi wrote:

This is actually one idea that I can't find issue with. Disclaimer, I haven't read further yet... sounds perfect. 

LungButter wrote:

It would encourage them to go even faster while off the track.

I meant with the no roost rule...

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LungButter
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5/29/2024 3:09pm
Jkawi wrote:

I meant with the no roost rule...

Gotcha.

Seems like it would still be pretty dang subjective if we have to debate what's roost and what isn't.

 

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5/29/2024 7:53pm
CPR wrote:
As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some...

As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some situations.
So as others have said I think the best solution is to make it so the rider has to come to a complete stop at some stage while off the track before safely re-entering. 

zehn wrote:
Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off. The current rule...

Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off.

The current rule is, in theory, sufficient. The way it is applied is not

How is stopping OFF the track just as dangerous as going backwards?

I mean you might get run over by Anderson....

Kidding, of course. I love Jason. 

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Soul Indigo
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5/29/2024 8:42pm

I have scanned the thread and watched a few of the takes by the industry talking heads.

Nobody has mentioned what the baseline is for checking to see if time was lost or gained. 

Is it based on the previous lap by said rider? Average time in section for all laps by said rider? Average time for all riders?

What if it’s first lap of first moto? Do they go to practice times?

It is all a moot point, in my opinion, as every lap is different. You need a constant in order to create a baseline and nothing is constant in moto.

The previous lap could have included a mistake or a different line choice or charging harder or a block pass or a tear off pull or any number of things. 

Even if it’s comparing to rider ahead/behind, all those variables above could affect the time by that rider on said lap. 
 

We are talking tenths of a second here to determine lost/gained time. Measuring against a moving baseline is silly. Using that measurement to enforce the rule book is idiotic. 

Very AMA thing to do. 

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Soul Indigo
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5/29/2024 8:50pm

And yes, it’s easy to say an off track excursion is ok because a rider “lost time”. That’s a stupid way to view it, and a trap, when it’s typically the case they actually GAIN time by not having to realize the full consequences of their mistake.

Its like saying you saved money by buying a Kawi on rebate. No, you spent money. Maybe you spent less money than you were expecting, but you did not save money. You spent it.

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zehn
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5/29/2024 8:53pm
CPR wrote:
As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some...

As has been pointed out before, there’s a reason the ‘re-enter where you left the track’ rule went away. It’s not practical or safe in some situations.
So as others have said I think the best solution is to make it so the rider has to come to a complete stop at some stage while off the track before safely re-entering. 

zehn wrote:
Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off. The current rule...

Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off.

The current rule is, in theory, sufficient. The way it is applied is not

How is stopping OFF the track just as dangerous as going backwards? I mean you might get run over by Anderson.... Kidding, of course. I love...

How is stopping OFF the track just as dangerous as going backwards?

I mean you might get run over by Anderson....

Kidding, of course. I love Jason. 

For the same reason they don’t park anything on the side of the track. Hard to hit something on the side of the track when it’s moving away from you.

Then when they reenter the track from a dead stop, they’re riding back onto a hot track with racers going much faster. All around just a bad idea IMO

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Paul333
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5/30/2024 5:34am

I like RV's opnion.

If you go off the track it should cost you time no matter what. You aren't on the race track. No matter what you got to take a breather, relax, etc. 

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5/30/2024 6:48am

Do we not think this carried over from SX.  Haiden was docked and Vialle won the championship. The points wouldn’t have changed the outcome. 

Motodragon
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5/30/2024 7:25am

Let’s keep it simple AMA rule book says if you are off the track to immediately let off the throttle which neither rider did. So they both should be penalized.  

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tingo
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5/30/2024 8:30am
Motodragon wrote:
Let’s keep it simple AMA rule book says if you are off the track to immediately let off the throttle which neither rider did. So they...

Let’s keep it simple AMA rule book says if you are off the track to immediately let off the throttle which neither rider did. So they both should be penalized.  

This. It’s this simple. Splitting hairs and tenths over time gain/lost, or who they think looked more before re-entering is why the AMA has no credibility. It’s a clear rule that was clearly violated by both riders. 

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yak651
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5/30/2024 8:48am

RV was pinned plenty of times off the track so he knows how to gain an advantage, so like how he laid out the situations with video. Would really like @ML512 or another journalist to have Pelleter(sp?) sit in watch the video and explain…but I know that won’t happen

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Shred
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5/30/2024 9:06am

I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less, or Vialle, or anyone else, by 3 points or less…..and it is hardly possible to have less respect for ama racing so…..

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Shred
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5/30/2024 9:19am
yak651 wrote:
RV was pinned plenty of times off the track so he knows how to gain an advantage, so like how he laid out the situations with...

RV was pinned plenty of times off the track so he knows how to gain an advantage, so like how he laid out the situations with video. Would really like @ML512 or another journalist to have Pelleter(sp?) sit in watch the video and explain…but I know that won’t happen

If he does then Mike P will spout some line that doesn’t clear up anything moving forward. IF he was smart he would say “roost equals you are still in racing mode, easy to see, to evaluate, and treat riders equally”.  Also easy for rider to control if he wants to.  No roost then good to go.  Also re-enter safely and 1st chance.  Then either give Tom his 2 points back or flip Deegan and Kitchen’s 3 points and say “ we are fixing it so the Championship is fair and maintains legitimacy.  Boom…. Fixed….but he won’t.

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NSP139
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5/30/2024 9:52am

Have they put out a race report yet?

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DonM
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5/30/2024 10:51am
Shred wrote:
I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less...

I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less, or Vialle, or anyone else, by 3 points or less…..and it is hardly possible to have less respect for ama racing so…..

Wow! That will show them....

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kxking
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5/30/2024 12:05pm
zehn wrote:
Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off. The current rule...

Stopping on the side of the track is just as dangerous as going backwards next to it to reenter where you went off.

The current rule is, in theory, sufficient. The way it is applied is not

How is stopping OFF the track just as dangerous as going backwards? I mean you might get run over by Anderson.... Kidding, of course. I love...

How is stopping OFF the track just as dangerous as going backwards?

I mean you might get run over by Anderson....

Kidding, of course. I love Jason. 

zehn wrote:
For the same reason they don’t park anything on the side of the track. Hard to hit something on the side of the track when it’s...

For the same reason they don’t park anything on the side of the track. Hard to hit something on the side of the track when it’s moving away from you.

Then when they reenter the track from a dead stop, they’re riding back onto a hot track with racers going much faster. All around just a bad idea IMO

So what about when you go down on the track, do you not come to a stop, get back up and start from a dead stop? With bikes moving around you , you find a way to get back going right?

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NateDawg241
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5/30/2024 3:38pm
 

 

Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that we don't have access to, as if we can't see Deegan absolutely spraying roost while off-track.

I would have more respect if he just admitted he fucked up and took ownership of this massive blunder.

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tingo
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5/30/2024 7:34pm
    Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that...
 

 

Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that we don't have access to, as if we can't see Deegan absolutely spraying roost while off-track.

I would have more respect if he just admitted he fucked up and took ownership of this massive blunder.

They also - unsurprisingly - didn’t cover Deegan going off track in the first moto, which is arguably the worse offense. Roosted his way back up to pace and sent an official scrambling out of the way. Mooooving on. Shit call, though.

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5/30/2024 7:49pm
    Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that...
 

 

Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that we don't have access to, as if we can't see Deegan absolutely spraying roost while off-track.

I would have more respect if he just admitted he fucked up and took ownership of this massive blunder.

So basically we decided this based on two things.

1. Vialle didn’t look before he went back on.

2. Deegan looked back when he went off to see if he was going lose a position.

 

Mike said we don’t base this on one thing or all things. Umm ok.

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Tyler D
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5/31/2024 2:06pm
Shred wrote:
I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less...

I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less, or Vialle, or anyone else, by 3 points or less…..and it is hardly possible to have less respect for ama racing so…..

DonM wrote:

Wow! That will show them....

i'm sure this was just an isolated incident. no more controversy is likely with the deegans. only 11 rounds more to go..

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GrapeApe
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5/31/2024 2:19pm
Shred wrote:
I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less...

I know the Deegans and his fanboys won’t care, but I will not consider the championship legit if he beats kitchen by 6 points or less, or Vialle, or anyone else, by 3 points or less…..and it is hardly possible to have less respect for ama racing so…..

DonM wrote:

Wow! That will show them....

Tyler D wrote:

i'm sure this was just an isolated incident. no more controversy is likely with the deegans. only 11 rounds more to go..

*10

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Shred
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5/31/2024 7:17pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2024 7:36pm
    Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that...
 

 

Mike Pelletier gave his excuses for why Deegan wasn't penalized and it's such nonsense. Talking about having a whole bunch of camera angles that we don't have access to, as if we can't see Deegan absolutely spraying roost while off-track.

I would have more respect if he just admitted he fucked up and took ownership of this massive blunder.

You are spot on.  If a real journalist could ask Mike P. these things then that would be great.

1.  Of 2 examples last week, not Vialle, who do you want the riders to most resemble when they go off track?  Deegan or Sexton?  Because i think they would obviously say Chase….but instead his explanation tells Chase he was sort of dumb to come off the throttle and loose a few very valuable seconds.  He did loose more time then he lost the race by.  Chase…next time gun it.

2.  You made a big deal about Tom not looking back.  Did you not look at the gap going in to the turn and realize Tom, and every other pro, would know it was 100% impossible for a rider to magically be in the way.  He knew, without a doubt, he was clear.  Deegan was next to a lapper when he rode off the track…hence he looked to see where he was.  

3.  You also made a deal of Tom doubleing  back on the track.  Sooo…it’s less of an issue to clear a 75’ jump coming back on the track than a small double.  Okay.

4. and the biggie.  After your explanation do you think riders have a clearer idea of what to do if they go off track?  I’ll help you…..Fuck no.  Time stamps?  So if one rider looses  .01 seconds and another rider gains .01 second then you will penalize only the second rider?  Previous lap section times?  Really. Because Deegan gaining on Tom could not have been a reason Tom turned it up a notch.  Every different situation could affect this somewhat. Now riders have to ride this impossible, while on the track, metric to try to avoid a penalty but not loose valuable time?  You basically just said there is no negative to going off the track unless you gain even .001 seconds.  Rest up in those rough sections boys.

The differences he listed in Deegans favor were pure fucking luck.  He was on the gas big time but apparently happened to loose at least .001 seconds.  The look over is because of the rider was in the immediate vicinity, unlike Tom’s situation.

He was clearly having to do verbal gymnastics to make it seem right.  Also..Mikey P.  How about releasing the tapes with the time stamps for the fans to see.  You know…like every legitimate race governing body.  F1 shows tapes of exactly what happened.

 

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5/31/2024 8:23pm

MIke and the AMA had the chance to set the rule this year that you had to come right off the gas while off track,  by not penalising Deegs's in either moto everyone will now go faster off the track, they would be stupid not to, 

 

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Press516
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5/31/2024 8:28pm

So Andrew Short is on the take too???  
 

You conspiracy theorists are wacko…

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Shred
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5/31/2024 10:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2024 7:20am
Press516 wrote:

So Andrew Short is on the take too???  
 

You conspiracy theorists are wacko…

Who said anything about anyone “on the take”?  
They just fucked this up….royally….and instead of clarifying what to do off track…they made it even worse.  I think they absolutely did not want to take the 1st place trophy out of Deegan’s hands after he had hoisted it….and said what they had to after the fact.  No conspiracy theories or accusations of anyone on the take.  I just think Mike P did a horrible, and unfair, job on this and it could have major ramifications on the championship.

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