Data Acquisition in Sx/Mx

Drail24
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Cobb, GA US
1/22/2022 6:42am
Mxtech1 sums it up pretty well. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and have worked in the racing industry for the last 25 years. In most all other forms of racing, data acquisition and interpretation is integral part of the program... and has been for years. Driver feedback is still very important (when you have a good driver/rider, even more so), but the ability to marry that with the data you can collect really allows you to maximize every aspect of the vehicles (and driver's) performance.

Most of the racing industry uses aftermarket stand-alone ecu's (such as Motec, Maxxecu, Holley, Fueltec, etc). These ecu's have amazing processing power, are completely customizable, CAN network capable, and can record and log data. They have multiple input options for reading any type of data you like... from ride height to engine parameters, wheel temperature, clutch slippage/engagement, and on and on.

In most applications, the ecu is logging data anytime the vehicle is running. So you go make test laps or test runs.. however long it may be... 5 min or 30min. The ecu is logging data. When you are finished, you download the data, analyze it, and start again. The real skill comes from being able to analyze the data, find trends, and apply what you can learn or pick out from the data. As Mxtech1 said.. give me all the data I can get... I will sort through it and decide what is useful and not. Better to have to much, than not enough... as you may miss something you WEREN'T looking for.

I'm always curious how any of this is being applied in the SX/MX world.. just knowing what is available out there. However, I am not connected to anyone inside the industry, so I just get to see what is published for the general public here and other places. I would have to think some teams are more involved with it than what we see here, but I don't know that.

To the OP's point, I'm not sure (yet) how cloud based data would be beneficial. As stated, most everyone logs data on the ecu (or stand alone data logger) and then downloads it afterwards for review. It is stored on the computer at that point and can be easily shared and manipulated. I can possibly see some instances where "real time" data... uploading to the cloud and then being able to access it remotely.. as it is happening, would be helpful. Most racing organizations (obviously) do not allow you to manipulate the data during a racing event (read from sensors and react real time).. you can have pre-programmed reactions based off of your own personal design.. i.e. traction control based off of some wheel speed parameter you have selected.. but not doing it in real time.

It's an interesting topic. Not discouraging the OP, just thinking out loud. No one ever knows they need something, until they know they need it.
2
ljubljanamx
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1/22/2022 8:13am
Check out Ducati, they have hired some data scientists. You’ll have to know machine learning, though. https://analyticsindiamag.com/ducati-goes-big-data-machine-learning-improve-motogp-bikes-testing-process/ I have thought about going this way, but I...
Check out Ducati, they have hired some data scientists. You’ll have to know machine learning, though.

https://analyticsindiamag.com/ducati-goes-big-data-machine-learning-imp…

I have thought about going this way, but I think the way to get paid less than working at a university is working on a race team…
Bruce372 wrote:
If you can do machine learning, get into biotech. You might help create the next Amgen or Genentech
I work in biotech at UPenn. I’m a senior data scientist in a neuroscience lab. I handle all the informatics, machine learning, coding architecture, and publication...
I work in biotech at UPenn. I’m a senior data scientist in a neuroscience lab. I handle all the informatics, machine learning, coding architecture, and publication workflows in the lab along with two other senior scientists, one of whom got poached to work at J&J and is leaving in a week ha.
Get out of academia and get a job at FAANG (or well funded startup) and make $700k a year.
1/22/2022 8:24am
I always thought it would be interesting to see an overlay of throttle position and rpm as a bike skims over the whoops. Assuming a 125...
I always thought it would be interesting to see an overlay of throttle position and rpm as a bike skims over the whoops. Assuming a 125 or 250F is WFO would like to see how revs move up and down as bike blitzes the whoops.
kibby wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/01/21/529723/s1200_Screenshot_158.jpg[/img]

kibby wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/01/21/529724/s1200_Screenshot_177.jpg[/img]

Curious to know about the gear position data -- Is there a sensor for that on the shifter cam? Or is it inferred from countershaft speed vs input shaft speed or something? Always wanted to add some function of tracking/logging which gear my '05 yz125 is in but didn't know a non-invasive means of doing so.
Drail24
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1/22/2022 9:01am
Can't speak for Kibby, but I would imagine his gear data comes from a sensor on the shifter cam.. which is probably on some of the modern 4 strokes today from the factory and is used for manipulating the fuel and timing, per gear, on the different "power" maps available on the handlebar switch. Hopefully he will chime in and clarify.

In your instance, the easiest method would be the inferred route... but you would need to add a speed sensor on the rear wheel or output sprocket/shaft... and a way to data log that information. Gear data can be obtained and inferred from the engine rpm vs wheel or output shaft speed by doing a little math and knowing the gear ratios of the transmission.

The Shop

mxtech1
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1/22/2022 10:22am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2022 10:23am
See Kawi's current setup, which could be duplicated for any bike to determine gear position.



With the speed sensor on the output shaft, you can measure the ratio at which the output shaft sprocket is turning vs. the engine RPM. Since each gearset within the transmission has a unique ratio, the data can be post-processed in a way that creates a "new" channel which could be called "Selected Gear"

Through a mathematical equation setup in the post-processing data software, each data point in the series can be assigned a value and then correlated to preset "gear selection" values. For example, if the calculation came out to be 1.188:1, the software would classify the transmission as being in 3rd gear. If 1.750:1, 1st gear. etc. This calculation is done for the entire time series, so for every single data point (say 60hz for a 20 minute main) the gear the rider is in will be known. We can do this mathematically because each gearset in the transmission provides a unique ratio of the output shaft.

One challenge with the Kawi method, is that the speed sensor pickup diameter must be carefully measured and entered into the mathematical equation, because you have to also remember that whichever point you are using for the sensor surface is rotating at an additional ratio to the output shaft. Thus, the gear selection channel equation would actually contain 2 ratios (the transmission set itself + the output shaft to measured point) relative to engine RPM.

My preferred method would be to mount a hall-effect sensor to the gear shift drum so that you could just record the output voltage (rotation (angle) gets converted to an output voltage based on sensor position) of the gear shift drum. Since we could easily measure, or calibrate the sensor to, the output voltages of the shift drum corresponding to each transmission gear seat, the post-processing of the hall effect sensor data would be as simple as relabeling the voltage range based on pre-specified ranges per gearset. The challenge with this method is the hall-effect sensor has to be mounted on the gear shift drum which would need mounting fabrication such as modifying the engine case and/or the transmission parts themselves. Often times, this would be much more difficult than just bolting on an external speed sensor to one of the rearward rotating members.

To duplicate the Kawi setup on a YZ125 you would need:
An aftermarket ECU with CAN communication for engine RPM -> rotation speed sensor -> mini-data logger
And then a data post-processing software compatible with the time-series data files from the data logger.
forensic
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Madison, WI US
1/22/2022 1:07pm Edited Date/Time 1/22/2022 1:23pm
I bolted an ABS ring to my rear sprocket and ran a hall sensor pickup. Measuring 60 pulses per revolution. It has been pretty easy to tell what gear the transmission is in by comparing to the engine rpm.
Drail24
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1/22/2022 1:25pm
Forensic... what bike and what system was used to record and view the data?
1
philG
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GB
1/22/2022 1:30pm
There is no Data Acquisition platform in Moto, for three reasons.

Firstly , there are too many variables outside of the normal racing parameters, to allow accurate data usage.

Secondly , the amount of people that it would take to unravel all of that , would cost a huge amount of money.

Thirdly , Moto does not have the budget to deal with the requirements of 1 and 2.


I have worked in F1 and WRC , both are data driven, because the machines are so complex... a dirt bike is a throttle, and a bike, the only thing you can truly play with is mapping , the rest is down to rider comfort , and preference.

F1 , you have a guy who just works on clutch protolcols. maybe 2 , plus the guy who deals with the parts

Its a bottomless money pit, that luckily has that bottomless pit.


WRC is the same, i have spent hours in cars pressing a heater switch to leave a time trace, on the drivers command, when testing, with guys who can drive a car , the smae way , all day , every day.


In MX we have Justin Barcia, who revs the crap out of the bike ' because he just does' despite the laws of physics being clear as to why its a dumb idea.


Nascar and Indy car , are Data light, because they realise it brings nothing to the racing , other than a huge bill, it is there, for sure but they arent going at it like F1 and WRC and WEC,
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forensic
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1/22/2022 2:02pm
Drail24 wrote:
Forensic... what bike and what system was used to record and view the data?
I have an AIM system on my SXF450. I only use the Aim software on the day of testing to view the data. When I get to my desk I always export to excel and process it myself.
Motoklik
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IE
12/8/2022 6:51pm

Hi guys, I just came across this topic today, and wanted to let you know about our data acquisitions system we have built exclusively for motocross and supercross. The system is called Motoklik and is used to measure both the front and rear suspension position and speed, as well as satellite enabled lap timing. The Motoklik app is made to be super easy to use so you can see exactly what the suspension is doing on any part of the circuit. We also developed a new type of sensor technology that is robust enough to take whatever a dirt bike can throw at it. There is more information on our website www.motoklik.com, or I'm happy to answer any questions here also.

Cactusone
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Mesa, AZ US
12/8/2022 11:15pm

https://youtu.be/SZZh2apkg1c
Help with chassis tuning and suspension for the average rider would be super helpful.  If they had this at tracks to rent it would great. 

Nutellalord
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Anaheim, CA US
4/27/2024 11:07pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills...
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills into Racing industry (racing is my passion period). (Not limited to motocross either, I’d work for a nascar/Indycar/rally/f1 team in like .01 of a second)

Do any of the teams run Data Acquisition (Telemetry or otherwise) when practicing and need to use a cloud to hold the data and or getting that configured or live time data transmission of such things? If anybody has any insight into this it would be appreciated… side note, I’m going to start helping a off-road race team and I’m hoping to find a way to bring I.t data into the fold to learn more/progress.
ML512 wrote:
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others. I think the amount...
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others.

I think the amount that use it doesn't create enough need for services that would keep someone busy as a job.

I may have miss understood the later question, but the teams can't receive or send a live signal to the bikes in race trim.

ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to collect engine data and suspension data?  We see the sensors around the bike quite often but never hear about what they use to store/collect data.  Cheers

mxtech1
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4/29/2024 7:17am Edited Date/Time 4/29/2024 7:18am
Motodave15 wrote:
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills...
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills into Racing industry (racing is my passion period). (Not limited to motocross either, I’d work for a nascar/Indycar/rally/f1 team in like .01 of a second)

Do any of the teams run Data Acquisition (Telemetry or otherwise) when practicing and need to use a cloud to hold the data and or getting that configured or live time data transmission of such things? If anybody has any insight into this it would be appreciated… side note, I’m going to start helping a off-road race team and I’m hoping to find a way to bring I.t data into the fold to learn more/progress.
ML512 wrote:
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others. I think the amount...
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others.

I think the amount that use it doesn't create enough need for services that would keep someone busy as a job.

I may have miss understood the later question, but the teams can't receive or send a live signal to the bikes in race trim.
ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to...

ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to collect engine data and suspension data?  We see the sensors around the bike quite often but never hear about what they use to store/collect data.  Cheers

The ECU doesn't store data, it has to be processed in real time & then wrote to a separate piece of hardware where it can be downloaded to a laptop after the race. The loggers are small enough that they are typically tucked away inside the bodywork of the bike which is why we don't typically see details of the data logging configuration.

AIM makes the ECULOG or Memory Module, GET makes the Smart Logger. These are the 2 most common used in motorcycles. 

skypig
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Caloundra AU
4/29/2024 5:11pm
Motoklik wrote:
Hi guys, I just came across this topic today, and wanted to let you know about our data acquisitions system we have built exclusively for motocross...

Hi guys, I just came across this topic today, and wanted to let you know about our data acquisitions system we have built exclusively for motocross and supercross. The system is called Motoklik and is used to measure both the front and rear suspension position and speed, as well as satellite enabled lap timing. The Motoklik app is made to be super easy to use so you can see exactly what the suspension is doing on any part of the circuit. We also developed a new type of sensor technology that is robust enough to take whatever a dirt bike can throw at it. There is more information on our website www.motoklik.com, or I'm happy to answer any questions here also.

That system looks pretty clever. More durable than the “string” system on the forks, I’d think. No moving parts. No idea on the accuracy.

I’ve used a “ShockWiz” on my MTB. It’s purely based on Air pressure. How fast it changes for speed, and what it gets up to for position.

It then makes recommendations based on some sort of algorithm. I found it more interesting than useful. Probably good for people with little idea to begin with.

I’d have prefered some more data. For example: where the suspension is riding in the stroke mid corner.

Non of this tech is going to stop me being old and slow - but it’s interesting.

CarlinoJoeVideo
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Location
Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
4/29/2024 9:41pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills...
Ok so I have a Information Technology background and am wondering how I could stop dealing with the regular corporate people and transition my I.t. Skills into Racing industry (racing is my passion period). (Not limited to motocross either, I’d work for a nascar/Indycar/rally/f1 team in like .01 of a second)

Do any of the teams run Data Acquisition (Telemetry or otherwise) when practicing and need to use a cloud to hold the data and or getting that configured or live time data transmission of such things? If anybody has any insight into this it would be appreciated… side note, I’m going to start helping a off-road race team and I’m hoping to find a way to bring I.t data into the fold to learn more/progress.
ML512 wrote:
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others. I think the amount...
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others.

I think the amount that use it doesn't create enough need for services that would keep someone busy as a job.

I may have miss understood the later question, but the teams can't receive or send a live signal to the bikes in race trim.
ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to...

ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to collect engine data and suspension data?  We see the sensors around the bike quite often but never hear about what they use to store/collect data.  Cheers

Motion Instruments, BYB and MotoKlik are great ways to record data and programs to analyze the results.  
 

It just takes time of using it, analyze data, make educated changes, review the data as well as comparing the feel of the bike to find the best place to be with your settings.  I’ve been using Motion Instruments for almost a year and have a few days in MotoKlik.

kwoody51
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Wayzata, MN US
9/14/2024 5:55pm
ML512 wrote:
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others. I think the amount...
A few of the teams run data acquisition during certain test sessions and occasionally at the races. Some teams more than others.

I think the amount that use it doesn't create enough need for services that would keep someone busy as a job.

I may have miss understood the later question, but the teams can't receive or send a live signal to the bikes in race trim.
ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to...

ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to collect engine data and suspension data?  We see the sensors around the bike quite often but never hear about what they use to store/collect data.  Cheers

Motion Instruments, BYB and MotoKlik are great ways to record data and programs to analyze the results.     It just takes time of using it, analyze...

Motion Instruments, BYB and MotoKlik are great ways to record data and programs to analyze the results.  
 

It just takes time of using it, analyze data, make educated changes, review the data as well as comparing the feel of the bike to find the best place to be with your settings.  I’ve been using Motion Instruments for almost a year and have a few days in MotoKlik.

Any insights into your learnings with either system?

CarlinoJoeVideo
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7519
Joined
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Location
Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
9/19/2024 2:33pm
ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to...

ML what products do they use to collect date?  Is the lambda data captured in the ECU?  Or do they use a product by AIM to collect engine data and suspension data?  We see the sensors around the bike quite often but never hear about what they use to store/collect data.  Cheers

Motion Instruments, BYB and MotoKlik are great ways to record data and programs to analyze the results.     It just takes time of using it, analyze...

Motion Instruments, BYB and MotoKlik are great ways to record data and programs to analyze the results.  
 

It just takes time of using it, analyze data, make educated changes, review the data as well as comparing the feel of the bike to find the best place to be with your settings.  I’ve been using Motion Instruments for almost a year and have a few days in MotoKlik.

kwoody51 wrote:

Any insights into your learnings with either system?

Hey there are great takeaways using both data acquisition systems.  The first thing is that, you have to want to learn, you have to test with it and learn what it all means.

For me, after using motion instruments system for over a year, is that I now can feel more and understand better on which direction to go.


For example, the way I learned in school and being able to see on a graph and feeling what 2-3 clicks of rebound or compression does, can really wrap my head around how to set up a bike. I’m able to balence a bike by using numbers then can translate that feeling to a bike without data.


The Motoklik system is much easier to set up on the bike and get your feet wet as far as using data and going in the right direction.


Motion instruments is much more just numbers and graphs and you need to make educated decisions.


It’s a fun thing to learn and mess around with. It’s definitely most helpful for riders who maybe can’t “ feel “ what the bike is doing.   I’ve set up some bikes for friends and they were blown away with just basic balance of comp/reb speeds. 

Stewyeww
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Location
AU
9/19/2024 3:41pm

fYI, motion instruments are no more, owners were recently laid off and their corporate overlords have 'no plans' to roll out the next update

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