Triumph ~ Homologation Rule

aeffertz
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4/24/2024 5:00pm
avidchimp wrote:
I've brought this up in a couple threads and some Triumph guy keeps downvoting it, but there is zero chance they had 200 bikes on dealer...

I've brought this up in a couple threads and some Triumph guy keeps downvoting it, but there is zero chance they had 200 bikes on dealer floors available to purchase, with sufficient parts availability, by March 1st, which is the rule. I am starting to think having the full 400 by June 1st is a bit of a dream as well.

But yeah, you won't hear a peep out of the ama as far as a fine goes.

DonM wrote:

That's not the rule they don't have to be on the dealer floors, they have to be in the country and available to dealers...big difference...

GrapeApe wrote:
Do you think they had 200 bikes in the country and available to dealers as of March 1? Of course not. This is unprecedented, it will...

Do you think they had 200 bikes in the country and available to dealers as of March 1? Of course not. This is unprecedented, it will be interesting to see how the AMA handles it. As far as I can tell there are no enforcement guidelines in the rules.

Meanwhile Ducati is monitoring with great interest . . .

 

I would think TM or Fantic would be looking a bit closer. They already have bikes and teams racing mx! While I think it's ultimately for the best that Triumph gets to race, like you said it will be interesting to see how this all plays out since it appears to the public that the rules put in place aren't being met but as the rules state the bikes just need to exist in the US. It is possible they are still working out the dealer infrastructure situation while they have bikes waiting to be divided out to established Triumph dealers that are ready to sell the MX bike.

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Tim507
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4/24/2024 5:29pm

Heard from the local dealer, bikes are shipping the week of the 29th of April...

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4/24/2024 5:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/24/2024 5:37pm
avidchimp wrote:
I've brought this up in a couple threads and some Triumph guy keeps downvoting it, but there is zero chance they had 200 bikes on dealer...

I've brought this up in a couple threads and some Triumph guy keeps downvoting it, but there is zero chance they had 200 bikes on dealer floors available to purchase, with sufficient parts availability, by March 1st, which is the rule. I am starting to think having the full 400 by June 1st is a bit of a dream as well.

But yeah, you won't hear a peep out of the ama as far as a fine goes.

DonM wrote:

That's not the rule they don't have to be on the dealer floors, they have to be in the country and available to dealers...big difference...

GrapeApe wrote:
Do you think they had 200 bikes in the country and available to dealers as of March 1? Of course not. This is unprecedented, it will...

Do you think they had 200 bikes in the country and available to dealers as of March 1? Of course not. This is unprecedented, it will be interesting to see how the AMA handles it. As far as I can tell there are no enforcement guidelines in the rules.

Meanwhile Ducati is monitoring with great interest . . .

 

This has happened before. When KTM came out with their first 250F. To meet homologation they had one bike open to the public in the whole county and put it at a dealer near AMA HQ, the plan worked and bought them more time. 

Ob917
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4/24/2024 6:26pm

Isn’t there some kind of a one year exception for this kind of stuff? Like when Yamaha first raced the yzf400?

3

The Shop

Mit12
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4/24/2024 6:27pm

My opinion,

 New brands to the sport like Beta, Triumph and Ducati who are willing to spend the money to get into the sport should be given one year to develop in racing conditions before the homologation rule is enforced. The sport needs as many manufactures it can get in order to survive and grow. The sport should be helping manufactures any way they can. 

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4/24/2024 6:29pm

The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major manufacturers and now serves as a barrier to entry for small manufacturers. Beta is a couple bad sales years away from missing the #s. TM won’t even bother. Is the sport really better off for that? 
 

Get rid of homologation altogether. 

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mxchange
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4/24/2024 6:34pm
The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major...

The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major manufacturers and now serves as a barrier to entry for small manufacturers. Beta is a couple bad sales years away from missing the #s. TM won’t even bother. Is the sport really better off for that? 
 

Get rid of homologation altogether. 

I agree with you, I think the bigger issue is the lack of communication from triumph to dealers and customers. I don't really get why they made the rule in the first place unless it's to increase stability within the series

Village Idiot
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4/24/2024 6:53pm
Ob917 wrote:

Isn’t there some kind of a one year exception for this kind of stuff? Like when Yamaha first raced the yzf400?

Pretty sure the one-year exemption rule for development got removed.

 

6
ccullins76
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4/24/2024 6:55pm
truck wrote:
Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph...

Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph and beta at Nashville supercross. Triumph rig basically at the pit entrance by all the kawi rigs, banners everywhere.... beta in the back corner and I'm guessing most people never knew they were there. Triumph is getting what they paid for I guess. 

ando wrote:

Beta USA race team is not an official factory team.  They are supported by the factory but running their own small budget.

Where do these rumors come from? Beta USA is owned by Beta Italy. They are the same company. Same as American Honda is owned by Factory Honda in Japan etc.  

I’m not sure how a team owned by the factory isn’t a factory team.  
 

Sure their budget isn’t as big, they are a smaller family owned company in Italy.  Triumph is sponsoring the series which is why they get preferential treatment. 

Being a Beta dealer  (trials only) I can say there are plenty of 450 RX’s available. 
 

 

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lostboy819
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4/24/2024 8:19pm
Ob917 wrote:

Isn’t there some kind of a one year exception for this kind of stuff? Like when Yamaha first raced the yzf400?

Nope, not anymore.

1
Alex814
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4/24/2024 8:35pm

So if Yamaha or another OEM wants to roll out full works bikes for this SX title, are they safe from the rule on the basis of discrimination?

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lostboy819
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4/24/2024 9:19pm
Alex814 wrote:
So if Yamaha or another OEM wants to roll out full works bikes for this SX title, are they safe from the rule on the basis...

So if Yamaha or another OEM wants to roll out full works bikes for this SX title, are they safe from the rule on the basis of discrimination?

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wr74
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4/24/2024 11:28pm

I’m all for new manufacturers coming into the sport, but surely it’s time to throw the whole production bike rule in the bin?

The whole thing of Ktm factory editions being raced months before they are available to the public has been making a mockery of the production concept for many years now.  I know it only matters when they bring out an all new bike, but in those years they are not racing a bike available to the public.  Why do they persist with the production rule?  Let’s just open it up and see what the factories can do.  The same guys will win regardless. No one is belong held back by their bike… in the 450 class at least.

Having said all that, whilst there is a rule, it should be enforced.  As the factory’s probably all cheat to an extent anyway (frames being an obvious one… who can tell if you build a works frame with different wall thicknesses, for example) and as triumph aren’t winning, they probably aren’t too bothered by it to go to extent of pressuring the ama to enforce the rule.  Might have been a different story if triumph were in contention for a title.

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ATKpilot99
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4/25/2024 3:00am
The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major...

The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major manufacturers and now serves as a barrier to entry for small manufacturers. Beta is a couple bad sales years away from missing the #s. TM won’t even bother. Is the sport really better off for that? 
 

Get rid of homologation altogether. 

mxchange wrote:
I agree with you, I think the bigger issue is the lack of communication from triumph to dealers and customers. I don't really get why they...

I agree with you, I think the bigger issue is the lack of communication from triumph to dealers and customers. I don't really get why they made the rule in the first place unless it's to increase stability within the series

The rule was created back in the mid 80s to eliminate one off hand built factory works bikes and keep costs down , and theoretically to enable privateers to be on a more equal level with the factories equipment wise . Yamaha had already gone to production based bikes a year or two before it was in place . It's an obsolete rule in my opinion. 

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ando
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4/25/2024 3:22am
truck wrote:
Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph...

Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph and beta at Nashville supercross. Triumph rig basically at the pit entrance by all the kawi rigs, banners everywhere.... beta in the back corner and I'm guessing most people never knew they were there. Triumph is getting what they paid for I guess. 

ando wrote:

Beta USA race team is not an official factory team.  They are supported by the factory but running their own small budget.

ccullins76 wrote:
Where do these rumors come from? Beta USA is owned by Beta Italy. They are the same company. Same as American Honda is owned by Factory...

Where do these rumors come from? Beta USA is owned by Beta Italy. They are the same company. Same as American Honda is owned by Factory Honda in Japan etc.  

I’m not sure how a team owned by the factory isn’t a factory team.  
 

Sure their budget isn’t as big, they are a smaller family owned company in Italy.  Triumph is sponsoring the series which is why they get preferential treatment. 

Being a Beta dealer  (trials only) I can say there are plenty of 450 RX’s available. 
 

 

I can’t recall exactly where I heard it but it was on a podcast with one of the Beta USA team managers/owners.

Maybe I’ve got the terminology a bit wrong but the guy was definitely clear that this wasn’t a full factory effort from Beta in Italy.

1
ando
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4/25/2024 3:31am
The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major...

The homologation rule is an example of regulatory capture. A rule meant to help privateers and local guys with vans has been co-opted by the major manufacturers and now serves as a barrier to entry for small manufacturers. Beta is a couple bad sales years away from missing the #s. TM won’t even bother. Is the sport really better off for that? 
 

Get rid of homologation altogether. 

mxchange wrote:
I agree with you, I think the bigger issue is the lack of communication from triumph to dealers and customers. I don't really get why they...

I agree with you, I think the bigger issue is the lack of communication from triumph to dealers and customers. I don't really get why they made the rule in the first place unless it's to increase stability within the series

ATKpilot99 wrote:
The rule was created back in the mid 80s to eliminate one off hand built factory works bikes and keep costs down , and theoretically to...

The rule was created back in the mid 80s to eliminate one off hand built factory works bikes and keep costs down , and theoretically to enable privateers to be on a more equal level with the factories equipment wise . Yamaha had already gone to production based bikes a year or two before it was in place . It's an obsolete rule in my opinion. 

Be careful what you wish for. I know factory bikes are modified from stock but one of the unique things MX/SX has is that the OEMs are largely racing the same bikes they sell.

The world has changed since 20 years ago or more when full works bikes ruled MXGP.  Nowadays the GP bikes are mostly the prototype for the next production bike.

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Spoonguy
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4/25/2024 4:10am

You can be certain that team Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, and even Kenny's Suzuki have very little in common with what the manufacturers sell.

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Front242
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Tim507 wrote:
  This bike was at PIR last Thursday and at the OneMoto Show in Portland. From what the Triump Rep alluded to is that the bikes...

 

This bike was at PIR last Thursday and at the OneMoto Show in Portland. From what the Triump Rep alluded to is that the bikes are in country

soggy
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4/25/2024 8:13am
ando wrote:
I can’t recall exactly where I heard it but it was on a podcast with one of the Beta USA team managers/owners. Maybe I’ve got the...

I can’t recall exactly where I heard it but it was on a podcast with one of the Beta USA team managers/owners.

Maybe I’ve got the terminology a bit wrong but the guy was definitely clear that this wasn’t a full factory effort from Beta in Italy.

I listened to the same pod. Can’t remember the specifics but I do remember hearing the support from Italy wasn’t there in terms of getting one off factory parts. Beta USA is on there own for bike development I think. 

LungButter
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4/25/2024 8:22am
lostboy819 wrote:
BFD, so they don't have enough bikes in the country or probably even built. When have AMA rules ever been fairly administered ever, so why would...

BFD, so they don't have enough bikes in the country or probably even built. When have AMA rules ever been fairly administered ever, so why would anyone expect any different. I think they need to drop the numbers because if the amount of people racing keeps getting smaller there is no point. 

LungButter wrote:
Nobody said it was a big deal....just discussing a current moto topic on a moto discussion board.  Sorry if that offends you. I don't understand what...

Nobody said it was a big deal....just discussing a current moto topic on a moto discussion board.  Sorry if that offends you.

I don't understand what you mean by "I think they need to drop the numbers because if the amount of people racing keeps getting smaller there is no point." 

Are AMA Supercross entry numbers dropping?  Are manufacturers pulling out of racing AMA Supercross?  Can you clarify?

lostboy819 wrote:

Ummmmm you win I guess.

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INeedaNewUsername
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4/25/2024 8:48am
truck wrote:
Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph...

Triumph paid the right people and are getting the royal treatment, nothing is going to happen to them. Was hilarious to see the difference between triumph and beta at Nashville supercross. Triumph rig basically at the pit entrance by all the kawi rigs, banners everywhere.... beta in the back corner and I'm guessing most people never knew they were there. Triumph is getting what they paid for I guess. 

ando wrote:

Beta USA race team is not an official factory team.  They are supported by the factory but running their own small budget.

ccullins76 wrote:
Where do these rumors come from? Beta USA is owned by Beta Italy. They are the same company. Same as American Honda is owned by Factory...

Where do these rumors come from? Beta USA is owned by Beta Italy. They are the same company. Same as American Honda is owned by Factory Honda in Japan etc.  

I’m not sure how a team owned by the factory isn’t a factory team.  
 

Sure their budget isn’t as big, they are a smaller family owned company in Italy.  Triumph is sponsoring the series which is why they get preferential treatment. 

Being a Beta dealer  (trials only) I can say there are plenty of 450 RX’s available. 
 

 

That drag racing sponsorship money have been more useful towards actual supercross/nationals and people that would consider a Beta. I doubt many of the people in the stands give 2 shits about Beta motorcycles. Just blankly see a sponsor on the side of rhe car.

LungButter
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4/25/2024 9:04am
That drag racing sponsorship money have been more useful towards actual supercross/nationals and people that would consider a Beta. I doubt many of the people in...

That drag racing sponsorship money have been more useful towards actual supercross/nationals and people that would consider a Beta. I doubt many of the people in the stands give 2 shits about Beta motorcycles. Just blankly see a sponsor on the side of rhe car.

Beta Motorcycles sponsored a drag race team?

You sure it wasn't the tool company Beta?

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-MAVERICK-
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4/25/2024 9:07am
LungButter wrote:

Beta Motorcycles sponsored a drag race team?

You sure it wasn't the tool company Beta?

Quick search shows it's Beta Motorcycles. 

LungButter
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4/25/2024 9:15am
LungButter wrote:

Beta Motorcycles sponsored a drag race team?

You sure it wasn't the tool company Beta?

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Quick search shows it's Beta Motorcycles. 

Woah, that's wild.

1
INeedaNewUsername
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4/25/2024 9:18am
That drag racing sponsorship money have been more useful towards actual supercross/nationals and people that would consider a Beta. I doubt many of the people in...

That drag racing sponsorship money have been more useful towards actual supercross/nationals and people that would consider a Beta. I doubt many of the people in the stands give 2 shits about Beta motorcycles. Just blankly see a sponsor on the side of rhe car.

LungButter wrote:

Beta Motorcycles sponsored a drag race team?

You sure it wasn't the tool company Beta?

Says motorcycles right on the side

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truck
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4/25/2024 9:49am

Asking them to produce 400 bikes for a country this big is not a big ask. I can't imagine this is stopping anyone from getting in the game who otherwise would. 

Forget privateers... say goodbye to teams like club and hep if you get rid of the rule. Look at the money and lengths the factory teams go to as is.... if you remove the one constraint they actually have they will come up with some extreme stuff that production based bikes won't be able to compete with. 

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