My son races a 2024 KTM SX-F 250 and I race a Stark. The maintainence requirements on the KTM are insanely expensive so I thought I'd do a quick cost comparision.
Also, valves and some parts required for 90 hour maintainence are showing an ETA of Jan/Feb 2024 for the KTM. We dropped a valve on one of his bikes two months ago and are still waiting to be able to purchase parts. The has been a recurring theme with KTM since 2021 or so. I understood during COVID, but it's been super frustrating having multiple bikes sit this year waiting on parts when new bikes are hitting the showroom floor.
My cost comparison does not include: fuel, tires, sprockets, chains, coolant. This is because these items should be changed at very similar intervals on both bikes. It's cheaper to charge the Stark at home than purchase fuel for the KTM, however, I figure I end up charging at least half the time with a generator on the Stark. The generator burns fairly similar fuel amounts per hour of ride time as the KTM. However, if the Stark is run in 48HP mode, it's more similar to the KTM on race gas, which would add about $15 per hour to the KTM. Costs below are parts cost only from Rocky Mountain. No labor is included.
As racing gets more and more expensive, I can see more families moving to the Stark. I can't even imagine what running a built 250 engine on race gas costs per hour. My guess would be over $100 per hour.
You should probably figure in the cost difference between the bikes too. Then figure if you were to buy last years model on closeout which you cannot do on a Stark and won't be able to for some time. You should depreciate the battery on the Stark for every charge since you are essentially doing that to the IC engine bike by figuring in the maintenance. The Stark maintenance costs will all come due in one big shot when the battery dies. It may still be less expensive than an IC bike, but I haven't seen a replacement battery cost yet. It is still early to say what may go wrong on the Stark if it is ridden as hard as some kids ride their 250fs. For riders that are that hard on equipment a 350 or 450 may be more economical than a 250.
Have you figured the cost of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke? I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing that and based on your numbers it will be quite a bit lower than what you are spending. A KTM 250sx is a good $1k cheaper out the door than the 250 sxf and the YZ250 is cheaper still. Pistons are cheaper (probably need changed more often though), no valves to replace, oil changes are about half the price. Cranks may not last as long, but they are still cheaper than your 90 hour head work.
I am pretty uneducated in this stuff but is the expectation that the electric motor on these bikes will never need any sort of maintenance, ever? They won’t ever have a part go bad or fail? Not speaking on the battery, the motor itself.
Right? A motor will let go and the bike could be a write off for all I know... What's Starks motor replacement/battery/parts deal?
Also, I appreciate fast homies have to treat the manual like a religious text as far as maintenance goes but most average people racing local or just riding and racing once in a while often go way longer with just oil and filters as far as KTM engine maintenance goes.
I'm all for electric bikes in the hope they open up riding areas or make the sport accessible to more people or even just to give us something else to try and enjoy, but this maintenance-free miracle bike narrative isn't for me...
I think most people at least double the KTM maintenance intervals for top end changes and most never change the timing chain or valves. However some kids like to use the rev limiter as a speed control which is hard on any bike. Electric bikes are not going to like that same type of aggressive riding any more than a gas engine does. Lots of wheelspin usually makes electric motor/batteries/speed controls get hot fast. Heat is the enemy of battery life and magnet life.
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Most electric motors lifespans are measured in thousands of hours.
The thing is, that a bikes value will not be the same for everybody. Some may value the lack of sound more than others. For some ,the lack of sound might save them 100's of hours of driving each year. For some the little bit of saved time on maintanance will mean they can ride VS not having time to ride.
On the high end, You might get 3000 charge cycles from a battery . So lets say 1500 cycles, A battery costs $6K right now. Chances are that when the Varg is in need of a new one, You will get twice the range from a similar cost replacement. But let's say You ride really hard and get 30 minutes from that charge . 750 hours from a battery, about $8 per hour on the expensive end . maybe $4 per hour if You ride slower , and do everything possible to keep the battery healthy.
If You are running Race gas in Your bike, just the Gas cost alone will be more than the Varg's battery cost per hour including charging.
I will also say that the numbers will not work for everybody. There is somebody out there who has 1000+ hours on their YZ/CR/KTM 250 they got for free from their Uncle and they use the leftover mixed gas from their landscaping company, do multiple 30+2 lap motos everytime they ride and have only changed a spark plug. I do not know anybody that has bought a race bike to save money. Most pay more to be able to go faster and end up with bikes that do not last as long before needing service as a result. So its funny to see so many people now using the expense as their newest reason to not buy a varg. How about this, If You do not like them, Do not buy one. If You like them, and they will work for the style riding You want to do. Buy one.
Will Stark be around in X amount of years to supply consumers with those new parts?
Good question man, I'd be concerned about that personally... They seem like the type to sell out ASAP, they've done an impressive job with the bike but who couldn't see Mr. Turtleneck selling up as soon as the opportunity comes up at a price he's happy with? Didn't they already sell a large share to somebody?
It's his right to do so, nothing against free enterprise, but where will it leave prior customers... I don't know anything, but these are questions I'd be concerned about.
Some valid points were brought up and discussed:
1. Motor - electric motors are extremely simple with very few moving parts. Tesla motors are designed to go 300k to 500k miles, or over 6,000 hours. I don't think it's optimistic to think the Stark electric motor will easily outlast the chassis. The bike will be ready for the dumpster long before the electric motor gives out. There may end up being a market for new Stark frames if the battery/engine last as long as other electric propulsion tech.
2. Battery - yes, the battery will start to deterioate substantially betweek 750 - 1,000 hours of ride time. However, if you think the KTM 250F will go that many hours with only pistons, con rod, bearings and timing chain, you are smoking something. The KTM will need an entire engine swap well before 500 hours if riding on moto tracks it's entire life. As you can see by the dyno chart, it must be ridden above 10,000 RPMs to make much power. The Stark makes 40 HP running at half output and makes more torque than the 250F at about 1/10 throttle opening.
A new Stark motor will cost $3,500, permanent magnet AC motors are extremely reliable, it's likely to last the life of the bike.
A new battery pack costs $7,000, it will lose 80% of it's potential capacity after 500 charge cycles, that might be 250-1000 hours depending how hard you ride the bike...
The battery will still be usable, but with reduced range.
The phone costs $300 and will need to be replaced first!
I understand where you are going with this, but missing some details...
Stark MSRP Cost: $12,000
KTM 250 SXF: $9,000
If you did 100 hours on both bikes and nothing went wrong, the KTM would be $30per hour cheaper to ride.
Factor in the costs you estimated above, after 100hours of riding then even out to the same cost. Both about $12k.
Euro price for those bikes is same. Also riding 100h a year and 2€ per litre for 95 octane costs around 1000-1500€ more than charging your Stark at home.
In US must be great competition with bike prices if you really can get KTM 250f with 9k dollars as its 12k€ here that is 13177 dollars today.
The 450sxf will go a lot longer between rebuilds than the 250 given the same rider speed. Leftover 450s are easier to find for cheap too. Left over KX450s are super cheap right now. Can you buy a Stark for $12,900 plus sales tax right now? If I want to have a Stark at my house in a week is that even possible? What will it cost?
Some people are using the cost of race gas to help justify the electric bike but why would anyone that cares about cost use race gas? I don't think you can race a Stark in a 250 class right now at least at a big race where you might run race gas.
Wow, crazy prices on KTM! Stark is 12,000 euro?
You just used the price of parts in your calculation. Many people do not have the time and/or skills to replace a piston, shim a valve, et cetera.
Surprisingly few, if you listen to people at the track. I wonder, do people take the bikes to the shop and have the piston changed and valves checked every 50-75h and pay for that or is the truth that many bikes are running 100-200h without any maintenance (but when sold, the text reads, carefully maintained every 5th hour
).
I think it was 'fun' during the Covid years as there was so much more time at home, but now... have to admit, I have other things to do than be in the garage hours and hours rebuilding the bike.
I'm proud that I know how to do it/done it.. but it's far far from my favourite way to spend my spare time.
People spend more on suspension than engines. How dialed in is the Stark suspension? Nobody leaves their KTM suspension stock. How about the time the maintenance takes away from life. Gasser is taking that time 10x to the Stark. Can't buy time.
I took my Honda to a local reputable mechanic, had the valves checked (and one shimmed) at 20 hours. I think I am in the rarity, though.
And you make me laugh, every bike ad says the air filter and oil were changed every ride!
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The Stark I rode was crazy stiff like a RMZ, suspension and chassis(it was also new, not broken in). Opened all the clickers and it was better but still too stiff for my liking. I would get it sprung and valved.
I definitely love the time savings aspect of Stark or electric bike. I hope to get one in the next year or 2, but right now I don't have the need for it. To me, a 450 isn't that much more maintenance. Still need to lube chain and do tire pressure. So the main thing you are saving time on is oil/filter change every 5 rides and airfilter change every other ride?
Reviews have generally been positive on the Stark's Technical Touch KYB settings.
One thing that is nice, that I wish more manufacturers would do, is that the bike is ordered sprung/set up for your weight:
In your calculation, did you consider resale value? Just the buying price by itself doesn’t mean much unless you throw away your bikes when you’re done with them.
I was also thinking about that after hearing so many people cry about a $7000 spare battery so did some calculations. Not that maintenance cost would be a decisive factor to buy a dirtbike or go electric, I'm just curious to see how much this $7000 battery replacement really "costs" over the life of the bike.
Also obviously the cost of maintenance is spread very differently, for ICE you would have regular moderate cost, and some less frequent bigger ones. For electric it's basically nothing then worst case scenario battery costing half the bike price. I'm excluding chain, tires, suspensions, brakes, can't be that different between both bikes (it varies more depending on the rider than on the bike itself).
Also big difference in time spent on maintenance which could be more of a decisive factor for those having something better to do with their free time.
Tell me if you think this is realistic, not sure about the 4 strokes maintenance and fuel cost.
Let's be conservative and say you need to get a new battery after 500 cycles (when you may have lost about 20% range so 5-10 min less).
Varg: 500 cycles, about 375 h run time (taking average MX 45 min range),
new battery $7000,
electricity about $1/charge (average US price $0.15/kWh) so $500,
gear oil $2 every 40 h so $10,
Grand total for Varg 375 h is $7510.
In this scenario, Varg running cost is $20/h.
Could add fuel cost to charge the bike with a generator maybe half the time at the track, don't know how much it would cost for 250 "generator charges"?
4 strokes: 375 h run time,
Fuel: maybe 375 gallons of fuel or more? Taking a cheap $3.5/gallon (US average), that would be $1300.
Going from what you calculated
Oil, oil filter, air filter: $20 every 15 h so $500
Piston, intake flange, sleeve: $650 every 45 h so $5400
Valves $580 every 90 h so $2400
Conrod, bearings, timing chain, suction pump $420 every 90h so $1700
Grand total for 4 strokes 375 h is $11300
In this scenario, 4 strokes running cost is $30/h.
Anything to add about clutch and transmission?
After the battery has gone through 500 charge cycles, 250-1000 hours, the bike will be vintage, time to move onto a newer model with more range!
Itss likely to be ridden by somebody who doesn't ride it as hard as the original owner, so 20% less range wouldn't be an issue.
Just pointing out that OP did his calculations with oil changes at 15 hours, I'd say most here change their oil more often than that.
and industrial motors, 10s of thousands of hours! We have a milling machine, 50 years old, never changed the electric motor, Lathe, over 50 years old, never changed the motor, aircompressor that runs all day the last 7 years 14,000 hrs (out grew the old smaller one but it didn't fail either). Airconditioner at home, wash machine, all on original motor. Typically if you don't side load the motor, and it's sized right, many, and more many hours of trouble free operation.
Battery and electronics on the other hand, that's the unknown. we'll see!
How can anyone seriously call the ultra annoying high pitched shriek the Stark produces a "lack of sound"?
Electronics's life will depend on Stark's design and quality control, no doubt they will experience some premature failures.
So ICE riders have no grounds to complain they can't hear the Stark!
I'm not sure you'd call it premature or unexpected. We've had Yamaha's that have been in the biz for ever and they had issues with water penetration of the electronics while washing. Not calling out Yamaha but that was just an example of something that was thought was good until finding out it wasn't. And it's not that they aren't quality, it's just the unknown of real world use. All this is brand new and this model year are really the guinea pigs.
Nah....electric motors never fail....
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