Honda CR ELECTRIC PROTO in All Japan Motocross Championship 2023 Round 8, Saitama

JM485
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Location
Davis, CA, USA
10/12/2023 12:30pm

So are we allowed to not really believe in the electric car hype but still believe E-bikes are vastly superior in performance on a motocross track, or is that too complex of a viewpoint?  Asking for a friend. . .

4
7
10/12/2023 12:31pm
Beagle wrote:
It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3...

It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3 years.

EV current market share:

Europe 20%

China 30%

some European countries are way ahead:

Germany 31%

Netherlands 35%

Finland 38%

Danemark 39%

Sweden 54%

Iceland 70%

Norway 88%

 

Unfortunately every thread about electric bikes get derailed by trolls, could we please talk about bikes now?

Government legislation is the ONLY thing pushing EV's. Not that people are demanding them.

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7
#434
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DE
10/12/2023 1:31pm
Beagle wrote:
It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3...

It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3 years.

EV current market share:

Europe 20%

China 30%

some European countries are way ahead:

Germany 31%

Netherlands 35%

Finland 38%

Danemark 39%

Sweden 54%

Iceland 70%

Norway 88%

 

Unfortunately every thread about electric bikes get derailed by trolls, could we please talk about bikes now?

Rosso391 wrote:

Government legislation is the ONLY thing pushing EV's. Not that people are demanding them.

Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.

 

To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards in the US and Europe? Or would they fear the Varg? 

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3
Beagle
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10/12/2023 1:37pm

I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting to see them against the Varg, definitely.

There may be a difference for race organizers and federations allowing a wildcard for a production bike than anyone can buy vs a prototype?

The Shop

early
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Location
University Heights, OH, USA
10/12/2023 1:45pm
#434 wrote:
Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.   To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards...

Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.

 

To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards in the US and Europe? Or would they fear the Varg? 

Fear the Varg? That gives me an idea for those that are scared to race a quiet electric bike.

Adobe 20231012 164413

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3
10/12/2023 2:24pm
Beagle wrote:
I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting...

I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting to see them against the Varg, definitely.

There may be a difference for race organizers and federations allowing a wildcard for a production bike than anyone can buy vs a prototype?

I spent a couple hours trying to read the rules for the Japanese Nationals. And a lot was not translating.  I saw that bikes in the class that Trey is riding and the 250 class both allow prototype frames and engines.But everything I was able to read said that there was still displacement minimums and maximums. Maybe I missed the explanation of the rule that lets Honda race the bike. I Doubt its just because they are Honda. I was trying to see if there was a way that the Varg could race based off the rule that allowed the Honda in. Maybe I missed a post explaining it.

 

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Myke
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Location
San Diego, CA, USA
10/12/2023 3:12pm
Beagle wrote:
It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3...

It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3 years.

EV current market share:

Europe 20%

China 30%

some European countries are way ahead:

Germany 31%

Netherlands 35%

Finland 38%

Danemark 39%

Sweden 54%

Iceland 70%

Norway 88%

 

Unfortunately every thread about electric bikes get derailed by trolls, could we please talk about bikes now?

Rosso391 wrote:

Government legislation is the ONLY thing pushing EV's. Not that people are demanding them.

#434 wrote:
Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.   To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards...

Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.

 

To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards in the US and Europe? Or would they fear the Varg? 

I highly doubt they really even care about the Varg.

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10/12/2023 4:57pm
#434 wrote:
Nice! Just like the oil tank on my 2001 WR250f. Will be interesting to see if the air cooling of the battery of the Varg will...

Nice! Just like the oil tank on my 2001 WR250f.

Will be interesting to see if the air cooling of the battery of the Varg will be sufficient or if everybody moves to water cooling eventually.

I hope air cooling is good enough. Would save complexity because cooling the motor and the battery with one system is not possible in most cases. 

The Honda patents don't mention water cooling the battery, they specify cooling the motor with water jacket #90... That doesn't mean they aren't water cooling the...

The Honda patents don't mention water cooling the battery, they specify cooling the motor with water jacket #90...

image-20231012234313-1

That doesn't mean they aren't water cooling the battery, but they haven't patented it.

bayodome wrote:
Nice researching. Good finds on the patents. Looks like maybe they're using pouch cells rather than cylindrical. Cooling properties might be favorable with pouch. It'll be...

Nice researching. Good finds on the patents. Looks like maybe they're using pouch cells rather than cylindrical. Cooling properties might be favorable with pouch. It'll be really interesting to see what innovations they're bringing to the game. I'm sure it's numerous.

Also, I really hope Stark Future enters a bike in Saitama too. That would get some attention. 

When Honda announced the first prototype, they stated the batteries were a collaboration with Maxwell, who make a small pouch battery cell...

image-20231013105305-1

None of Honda's or Mugen's (M-Tec) patents cover the battery pack design, at least none of the patents I could find.

10/12/2023 4:59pm
Beagle wrote:
I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting...

I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting to see them against the Varg, definitely.

There may be a difference for race organizers and federations allowing a wildcard for a production bike than anyone can buy vs a prototype?

I spent a couple hours trying to read the rules for the Japanese Nationals. And a lot was not translating.  I saw that bikes in the...

I spent a couple hours trying to read the rules for the Japanese Nationals. And a lot was not translating.  I saw that bikes in the class that Trey is riding and the 250 class both allow prototype frames and engines.But everything I was able to read said that there was still displacement minimums and maximums. Maybe I missed the explanation of the rule that lets Honda race the bike. I Doubt its just because they are Honda. I was trying to see if there was a way that the Varg could race based off the rule that allowed the Honda in. Maybe I missed a post explaining it.

 

It's a Japanese series, the Japanese manufacturers would have some say in the rules.

10/12/2023 5:07pm
Beagle wrote:
It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3...

It's backfiring big time for them (whoever them might be, US, China, Europe left, right, center...), see, EV market share barely tripled in the past 3 years.

EV current market share:

Europe 20%

China 30%

some European countries are way ahead:

Germany 31%

Netherlands 35%

Finland 38%

Danemark 39%

Sweden 54%

Iceland 70%

Norway 88%

 

Unfortunately every thread about electric bikes get derailed by trolls, could we please talk about bikes now?

Rosso391 wrote:

Government legislation is the ONLY thing pushing EV's. Not that people are demanding them.

#434 wrote:
Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.   To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards...

Use one for two weeks and you’ll see why people buy them.

 

To get back to topic: Could Honda start racing this thing with wildcards in the US and Europe? Or would they fear the Varg? 

I can't see Honda racing in the US or Europe for a couple of years.

I doubt the Honda prototype would have the same battery capacity as the Varg, the Varg's frame doesn't have a front down tube, allowing the space to be used for a larger battery pack.

Honda's motor/inverter looks larger than the Varg's, that doesn't mean it is more powerful, just heavier, the media's initial reports on Honda's first prototype stated similar power to a 250f, that's a long way from the Varg's 80hp or even the 60hp version.

Honda are likely still waiting on the delivery of their first Varg, so they can compare and reverse engineer, or they already have the $60,000 one that was advertised by a scalper!

3
10/12/2023 5:14pm
Beagle wrote:
I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting...

I think Honda are happy to keep it more low-key on their home soil, but if this first outing is reasonably successful it would be interesting to see them against the Varg, definitely.

There may be a difference for race organizers and federations allowing a wildcard for a production bike than anyone can buy vs a prototype?

I spent a couple hours trying to read the rules for the Japanese Nationals. And a lot was not translating.  I saw that bikes in the...

I spent a couple hours trying to read the rules for the Japanese Nationals. And a lot was not translating.  I saw that bikes in the class that Trey is riding and the 250 class both allow prototype frames and engines.But everything I was able to read said that there was still displacement minimums and maximums. Maybe I missed the explanation of the rule that lets Honda race the bike. I Doubt its just because they are Honda. I was trying to see if there was a way that the Varg could race based off the rule that allowed the Honda in. Maybe I missed a post explaining it.

 

It's a Japanese series, the Japanese manufacturers would have some say in the rules.

I know, But there are 3 other Japanese brands besides Honda.  And there are KTM's 3 brands racing in it. They have a say in the US rules too. I was just looking for the rule that makes the Honda legal.  I was saying I doubt that they are able to race it just because they are Honda , if there is not some kind of rule in place already.  And I wanted to see how the rule was written to see  how they would allow the Honda and not the Varg.   I don't doubt that that is the way it is. But I also do not want to just assume .  

Brent
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10/12/2023 5:24pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2023 5:25pm
#434 wrote:
What kind of nonsense is that. I have a Tesla and charge it from the solar on my roof (work even if there’s no power from...

What kind of nonsense is that. I have a Tesla and charge it from the solar on my roof (work even if there’s no power from the grid). How much more freedom can you have?

Do you produce your own fuel in your backyard?

Sure it works if disconnected from the grid, but the delivery system (aka the power transfer and the charger) relies upon a data connection and telematics...

Sure it works if disconnected from the grid, but the delivery system (aka the power transfer and the charger) relies upon a data connection and telematics to function properly.  Without cloud connectivity, this charging infrastructure turns into a brick.  The idea that solar charging is somehow more "free" is a common statement that is very disingenuous in the context that it is used.  You (and others) make it sound as though you have a rudimentary solar setup ala RVs that you can then use to transfer power to your vehicle.  Everyone knows that it does not work that way.

Yes there are limitations with petroleum production and distribution, but the overall "pipeline" from extraction to retail point of sale is incredibly robust.

#434 wrote:
It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs. But to tell...

It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs.

But to tell me that the production and distribution of oil and gas is less troublesome and less attackable than the 80 feet of cable from my solar roof to the inverter and to my car is just ridiculous.

I didn't read everything here,  but I have two Tesla's and a 18.5 KW roof top solar array with 3 backup power cells - also by Tesla. 

Not only do I produce more electricity than I need for home use (I sell excess back to the utility), I am able to charge both cars from the energy from my solar panels, so I don't have to pay ridiculous gas prices unless its for our gas powered cars and vans.

My roof top solar energy system is autonomous even if internet connectivity is not available, and I can take the system off the grid totally with my phone. I own my system outright so I never have to pay anyone for anything.

also, I haven't had a utility bill since I installed the system last May.  Seems pretty easy and cheap.

For what it is worth, I don't give a fuck if the cars run on solar power, gasoline, hydrogen, or dog farts - I just wanted to save on fuel and utility costs, I don't care what kind of environmental impact solar makes, because the impact to my wallet is very positive.

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2
10/12/2023 5:42pm

Didn’t the major manufacturers sign some battery pact a couple years ago that they would co develop or use the same specs? Anyone else recall that?

Cali
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Bakersfield, CA, USA
10/12/2023 6:30pm
JM485 wrote:
So you guys want a bike with less power and less battery because it has a Honda logo on it?  Unless they go the route of...

So you guys want a bike with less power and less battery because it has a Honda logo on it?  Unless they go the route of smaller, swapable battery packs (which it doesn't look like is the case here) there is absolutely zero chance this performs at well as a Stark just based on space constraints alone.  

Hondas been in the bike business over 60 years & Stark?

1
10/12/2023 7:21pm

But KTM signing into it made me question as they are all ready to race bikes, not Honda lawnmowers

1
Beagle
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10/12/2023 10:19pm

But KTM signing into it made me question as they are all ready to race bikes, not Honda lawnmowers

Good catch, that's nice to see them pooling ressources to adresse this (standard swappable batteries means standard battery swapping places which makes a lot of sense) but it's definitely more for scooters and small bikes.

"Together with our partners, we will work to deliver a swappable battery system for low-voltage vehicles (48V) up to 11kW capacity."

That is 15 hp, also performance motorcycles typically require voltage above 200 V to pack more punch (360 V for the Varg).

#434
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10/12/2023 11:28pm

But KTM signing into it made me question as they are all ready to race bikes, not Honda lawnmowers

Beagle wrote:
Good catch, that's nice to see them pooling ressources to adresse this (standard swappable batteries means standard battery swapping places which makes a lot of sense)...

Good catch, that's nice to see them pooling ressources to adresse this (standard swappable batteries means standard battery swapping places which makes a lot of sense) but it's definitely more for scooters and small bikes.

"Together with our partners, we will work to deliver a swappable battery system for low-voltage vehicles (48V) up to 11kW capacity."

That is 15 hp, also performance motorcycles typically require voltage above 200 V to pack more punch (360 V for the Varg).

Battery capacity should be in kWh. So the pack has 11kWh and can have more than 11kW. Using 48V technology make sense because you can power a drive motor with it and all the other stuff like lights and screens and stuff.

My Tesla and all other EVs for that matter need an additional 12V system for all the smaller systems. However, the automotive industry wanted to switch to 48V for a long time. Cybertruck will be the first Tesla to get 48V tech (and will move from 400 to 800V for the drive system).

With 48V the motorcycle manufacturers could use a lot of already developed stuff from the market. 

1
Beagle
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10/13/2023 12:03am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2023 12:04am

That may be a translation issue or their statement is very badly worded because they state "capacity" then give Kw which is a power unit.

Reading it I thought about low voltage low power commuter and utility vehicles, scooters and such, for which 11 kW (15 HP) makes sense because it's the power limit under which you do not need a licence to ride in lots of countries.

10/13/2023 1:15am
Beagle wrote:
That may be a translation issue or their statement is very badly worded because they state "capacity" then give Kw which is a power unit. Reading...

That may be a translation issue or their statement is very badly worded because they state "capacity" then give Kw which is a power unit.

Reading it I thought about low voltage low power commuter and utility vehicles, scooters and such, for which 11 kW (15 HP) makes sense because it's the power limit under which you do not need a licence to ride in lots of countries.

It's probably a translation of the Italian word capacità which can also be used for power...

image-20231013191505-2

 

#434
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10/13/2023 1:24am
Beagle wrote:
That may be a translation issue or their statement is very badly worded because they state "capacity" then give Kw which is a power unit. Reading...

That may be a translation issue or their statement is very badly worded because they state "capacity" then give Kw which is a power unit.

Reading it I thought about low voltage low power commuter and utility vehicles, scooters and such, for which 11 kW (15 HP) makes sense because it's the power limit under which you do not need a licence to ride in lots of countries.

Yes, would make sense. 11kW power should work with a 48V system without having to deal with very high currents and therefore thick cables. 

1
Beagle
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10/13/2023 1:28am

https://www.sb-mc.net/

https://www.sb-mc.net/news

39 members, including Dellorto.

"With lightweight-category vehicles we mean L-category vehicles such as mopeds, scooters, motorcycles, tricycles, quadricycles."

"Motorcycles and scooters over short distances are a great solution, especially for everyday travel in cities"

15 hp it is, nice for urban commuting, no Varg-killers from this front.

1
cbarber
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Location
Atwater, MN, USA
10/13/2023 7:30am
Sure it works if disconnected from the grid, but the delivery system (aka the power transfer and the charger) relies upon a data connection and telematics...

Sure it works if disconnected from the grid, but the delivery system (aka the power transfer and the charger) relies upon a data connection and telematics to function properly.  Without cloud connectivity, this charging infrastructure turns into a brick.  The idea that solar charging is somehow more "free" is a common statement that is very disingenuous in the context that it is used.  You (and others) make it sound as though you have a rudimentary solar setup ala RVs that you can then use to transfer power to your vehicle.  Everyone knows that it does not work that way.

Yes there are limitations with petroleum production and distribution, but the overall "pipeline" from extraction to retail point of sale is incredibly robust.

#434 wrote:
It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs. But to tell...

It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs.

But to tell me that the production and distribution of oil and gas is less troublesome and less attackable than the 80 feet of cable from my solar roof to the inverter and to my car is just ridiculous.

Brent wrote:
I didn't read everything here,  but I have two Tesla's and a 18.5 KW roof top solar array with 3 backup power cells - also by...

I didn't read everything here,  but I have two Tesla's and a 18.5 KW roof top solar array with 3 backup power cells - also by Tesla. 

Not only do I produce more electricity than I need for home use (I sell excess back to the utility), I am able to charge both cars from the energy from my solar panels, so I don't have to pay ridiculous gas prices unless its for our gas powered cars and vans.

My roof top solar energy system is autonomous even if internet connectivity is not available, and I can take the system off the grid totally with my phone. I own my system outright so I never have to pay anyone for anything.

also, I haven't had a utility bill since I installed the system last May.  Seems pretty easy and cheap.

For what it is worth, I don't give a fuck if the cars run on solar power, gasoline, hydrogen, or dog farts - I just wanted to save on fuel and utility costs, I don't care what kind of environmental impact solar makes, because the impact to my wallet is very positive.

Hey Brent, serious question- How long will it take to pay for itself?

8tensolutions
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Salt Lake City, UT, USA
10/13/2023 7:53am
#434 wrote:
It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs. But to tell...

It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs.

But to tell me that the production and distribution of oil and gas is less troublesome and less attackable than the 80 feet of cable from my solar roof to the inverter and to my car is just ridiculous.

Brent wrote:
I didn't read everything here,  but I have two Tesla's and a 18.5 KW roof top solar array with 3 backup power cells - also by...

I didn't read everything here,  but I have two Tesla's and a 18.5 KW roof top solar array with 3 backup power cells - also by Tesla. 

Not only do I produce more electricity than I need for home use (I sell excess back to the utility), I am able to charge both cars from the energy from my solar panels, so I don't have to pay ridiculous gas prices unless its for our gas powered cars and vans.

My roof top solar energy system is autonomous even if internet connectivity is not available, and I can take the system off the grid totally with my phone. I own my system outright so I never have to pay anyone for anything.

also, I haven't had a utility bill since I installed the system last May.  Seems pretty easy and cheap.

For what it is worth, I don't give a fuck if the cars run on solar power, gasoline, hydrogen, or dog farts - I just wanted to save on fuel and utility costs, I don't care what kind of environmental impact solar makes, because the impact to my wallet is very positive.

cbarber wrote:

Hey Brent, serious question- How long will it take to pay for itself?

It's a real question, but you'll rarely get the real answer because those that bought into the solar boom want to believe it pays off.  The reality is if you have enough solar and battery to power a home AC unit in any warm climate it would be incredibly expensive.  Lights are one things, Fridges, AC etc is another. I live in Utah where this is "pushed" and sold and the numbers just dont work.  It would take 30+ years or more to pay for itself if you want enough to hand the kwh of a home.  

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Beagle
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10/13/2023 8:12am

I can't answer for Brent but I can tell you than in France it pays for itself on average in 10 years.

10 solar panels (3 kW) are enough to power a standard 100 m2 house, now if you have AC, swimming pool, you probably need to add another 10 panels to never have to pay another electricity bill.

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Falcon
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Menifee, CA, USA
10/13/2023 9:46am

I just want solar so that I can turn myself off from the grid if I have to. I'm just waiting for the day when California decides to charge everybody $10,000 per KwH instead of 60 cents. Because, you know... Covid and racism and bullet trains to Sacramento and stuff. You understand.

I also just want to see if an electric bike is faster than a 450. So far, it seems the Stark may very well be. I don't care if it only runs for an hour; that's all I need it for on any given track day, anyway. Plus, I've owned a generator before and I can again. Who cares if I have to top off the charge a little? I'll do that between motos while I'm resting my 50+ Y.O. carcass on the tailgate. 

12
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Crash1181
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Dexter, MI, USA
10/13/2023 10:11am
#434 wrote:
It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs. But to tell...

It’s okay that you love your gas operated stuff and car and it’s okay that you don’t want anything to do with EVs.

But to tell me that the production and distribution of oil and gas is less troublesome and less attackable than the 80 feet of cable from my solar roof to the inverter and to my car is just ridiculous.

It’s telling that your first response is to throw out wild allegations rather than address anything that I’ve said. For the record, I work in this...

It’s telling that your first response is to throw out wild allegations rather than address anything that I’ve said.

For the record, I work in this space.  Based upon what you’ve said, I have to assume that you are purposely being obtuse or willfully ignorant.  You grossly overstate the simplicity of charging your vehicle from a home solar array.

Where do you work?  I live in the area too.  Just curious of your credentials seeing as your screen name shows some bias.

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#434
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10/13/2023 11:51am
Beagle wrote:
I can't answer for Brent but I can tell you than in France it pays for itself on average in 10 years. 10 solar panels (3...

I can't answer for Brent but I can tell you than in France it pays for itself on average in 10 years.

10 solar panels (3 kW) are enough to power a standard 100 m2 house, now if you have AC, swimming pool, you probably need to add another 10 panels to never have to pay another electricity bill.

It’s about the same here in Germany. We’re about to install 8kWp on my parents house, maybe we’ll add a battery later. Should be enough to not need anything from the grid, other than 2 months in winter. 

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Brent
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10/13/2023 3:20pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2023 3:28pm
cbarber wrote:

Hey Brent, serious question- How long will it take to pay for itself?

My home utility bills used to be over 1200 a month in summer because I have a lot of shit to power at my house.  Average my bill out and it was about 855 per month for the year.

Temecula gets fucking hot in summer so we have AC running 24/7 in July thru September.

Solar with 3 PowerWalls from Tesla was 47 K OTD installed. I got a 19K tax credit for the system so my net cost was 28K out of pocket.   

I charge 2 cars plus power my house for free now with a 28K net investment, so I figure Im saving an average of 1100.00 per month  between energy bills and gas that I'm not putting in the cars. 

AND it makes my home appraise for more.

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