Why Triumph is starting with a 250

I would also think they are trying to walk before they run.  Unlike Cannondale, they know how to make an engine.  I know a lot of people have given them grief about how long it is taking to roll out.  I'm sure Covid affected their timeline, but I'm of the opinion they are a careful group that wants the machine to be right and if that means a delay, then so be it.

I'm just ready to see the bike and really can't wait to see the 450. 

It's time....they need to drop some shots.

Triumph are also bringing out a single cylinder 400 road bike in 2024.

Perhaps there will be some common parts with this engine ?

I think I read that this new 400 is being made by Bajaj Auto ? (Probably spelt wrong) a company in India ...................that also have some shareholding in KTM.

Could be wrong ( I usually am), but it all sort of adds up

Bajaj doesn't just have "some" shareholding, they own 48% of KTM/PMG. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajaj_Auto

Bajaj, Triumph and KTM are furthering their existing partnerships with a new factory in India that'll be making their midsize bikes (twin cylinder 4-600cc  IRC).       Motorcycle companies are really trying into get into the Indian market the last couple of decades (with this type of manufacturing partnership) because the countries import taxes make their bikes too expensive for the average buyer and squish out their market share and the overall motorcycle market is huge there. 

Okay, but... they will cost money. 

The Moto 2 engines are lightly modified road engines. (From the “Street Triple”)

Nice engines, but nothing like the High output MX engines we are blessed with, and even further from the prototype 250cc single cylinder engines used in Moto 3.

It will be a massive task to develop 250 and or 450 engines to be competitive with the incumbents. 

I can’t believe Triumph, and Ducati (if true) are developing MX bikes. I would have thought it was an over crowded, and shrinking market.

Much easier to win a 250 championship with massive HP and shit handling. Vs 450 with a deeper field / need a great handling bike - HP isn't as much of an advantage

Im pretty surprised myself but I think it actually makes a lot of sense because ducati and triumph are motorcycle manufacturers only. Just like KTM they dont have other endeavors that bring in money like boats, cars, utv’s..etc. For Honda the motorcycle market is only a tiny fraction of their business. The only weird part about it is that they actually should have gotten into the industry a long time ago. 
 

From the perspective that businesses need to keep growing over time I think it makes a lot of sense for these known motorcycle brands to build/sell more motorcycles. They both are now entering entirely new markets that they werent in before. This also gives them an “in” to the world outside of street motorcycles, so they can keep expanding further in the future.
 

They can start with big bikes, then move on to 85s, 65s, 50s, then move to off road bikes, theyll be established by the time electric dirt bikes come out, and they can keep expanding further and further into utv’s, side by sides, maybe even snowmobiles.. its up to them how far they wanna go. Instead of being stuck as just a road bike manufacturer they have many ways to keep expanding further and further going fwd. 

That’s a good point 👍

Makes sense

And I was wondering about Ducati, Is there a rule against desmdromic valve trains in the 250 class?

The current Ducati Moto GP bike makes 300 HP and puts the Yamahas and Hondas to shame so I am sure they walk in and make becoup power right away. Like it or not (I love motoGP) this is where the most money is spent by far and the most R+D and technology is developed. The Japs are really behund the 8 ball as Ducati, KTM and even tiny Aprilla are way ahead.

I think it's great to see a European revival and hope the Japanese factorys come back in the battle.

As long as it is homologated per AMA rules they can run whatever they want.

But seriously, wtf is this thing?  

Reading through this thread I was already thinking out this post in my head...  And here you have it.

The desmodromic design is lower parasitic drag than a valve spring design.  It will be the "next" engine development if so...

I would imagine you will see the bike when the new riders are introduced. 

I didnt even think about this until now. Ducati only uses desmodromic valve trains, so theyre definitely going to use it in their dirt bike. With how good material science is these days theres not really any benefit to the system, thats why nobody else uses it, but that being said it will be nice to see something different. These days were at the point where everybody is using finger followers, dlc coatings, or roller rockers so theres not a whole lot separating things. Hondas 250f used to be a single cam but thats long gone. All of the 250f are basically using the exact same valve train design now that everybody has caught up.  Honda and ktm still use a single cam in their 450 so theres a bit of difference there. Either way though it will be cool to see something completely different from everything else and not just the same thing rebadged.  

Meanwhile, Evan Ferry is sitting on the sidelines for pro races.

Looks like he will be at Loretta's in Pro Sport...what brand is the question. Looks like he rode Yamaha for AQs and GasGas for Regionals. 

Looking forward to seeing him race.

The 765 engine is probably getting a bit long in the tooth for them to pinch a cylinder and head from for the MX bike.

They are a bucket follower design and make respectable power- around 130 rated horses - but are not regarded as fast- even in the Moto2 spec- reliability is their thing.

It seems likely Triumph would be developing a new finger follower engine for the 250 MXer (and possibly a 450 at the same time). If they are using the forward intake Yamaha designs as benchmarks then they have a lot of work to do to get the same potential. This could be a reason for the delays.  Pouring big dollars into development for a small market might be an issue.

Ok, and what is that supposed to mean? 

Some tech that isn’t used in current MX engines, but is common, or at least used elsewhere.

Gear drive cams - used on my 1990 V4 Honda 

Bevel drive cams - Ducati

Both potentially more accurate valve timing than chains.

Desmodromic and Pneumatic valve actuation - Ducati and Moto GP respectively. 

Both systems overcome “Valve float”, and perhaps more importantly: greatly reduce power required to drive the valves system.

Good point Dave.

I'm a long time road race guy and remember when the Ducati SuperMono came out in the late 90's or so with a counter balancer, Desmo head , magnesium cases and it was a beast for a 600cc single. 

I even went to the factory in Bologna with my Dad and have a pic of Doug Polen's championship bike. I think it was the 851 or 888 that was before the 916.

Probably cant afford it but super curious as to what Ducati decides to do with MX design.

I expect Triumph to build a good engine. They always do for racing. I’m excited to see the Ducati too. 

When will their 2 stokes be here?

Wasn’t it rumored that they were working with cosworth to build there engine?

As a bloke that has worked with / on Ducatis now for several decades, it's not guaranteed that an MXer/ Offroader will have a  Desmodromic valve train.

They introduced the 1158cc  Valve Spring V4 with the Multistrada a few years ago. And, there was minimal backlash from the 'Ducatisti'. Something much feared.  But, when you introduce an imminently usable, 170HP (as a base model) engine with a Valve clearance check schedule of 60,000KM, well, a Lot of people have accepted the ' V4 Grantourismo ' engined bikes...........

Though, the Desmos have gone up to  18,000 + valve inspection intervals, and you rarely have to do a damned thing to them.

A Big change from the old Bevel engines, and even the early Cam Belt  drive engines.

There's nothing hard about doing Desmo Valve clearances. But, you've got to have the shims at hand. Not something most people have, unless you are a long term, hands on owner.

The Bevel drive engines disappeared from production decades ago. Belts and, in some cases, gear drives  (and chains) took over. I like playing with the Bevels, and, with a mate of mine that I regard as one of the foremost Bevel and Belt drive engineers in the World to keep me in check / help me out, well, I'm 'safe' when working on them.

I know 2 people here in OZ with Supermonos. One with a first batch 549cc engine (that has been  up spec'd to 570cc), one with the later 102mm piston 570cc engine. They were never a full 600.  And that made it a bit difficult in  Singles / Supermono racing for them when up against some of the monster capacity singles built up. Still, Robert Holden did win one of the TT Singles races, and a few other placings there were had. Alan Cathcart won a  singles race at Bathurst one year. They are jewel like little bikes, absolutely gorgeous, and wonderfully engineered. It's a pity that it didn't lead to a Street Production bike. I think 67 were made. But, I also think a British company has made some - not sure on the 'how's' to that, if they used a supply of spares, or had their own bits made - I'd say a combination of both.

The 'balancer' was a captive conrod and arm within the cases. Some of BMWs parallels twins use(d) such a system - it's purported to have less friction / less HP drain than more traditional rotating shafts, and, better balancing.

Anyway, Ducati getting into Dirt Bikes? And, for that matter Triumph. Both pretty bloody successful companies with what they are doing now.

It's a bit of a head scratcher, but, neither are foolish companies. Ducati, of course, have the massive backing of their parent company, Audi, so they might be in the position to take a risk, so long as they keep making money for " Zee Germans "...... 

But heck, I remember the people that denied /  put down the 'rumours' that both Beta and Sherco would ever make 2 stroke Enduro bikes. Engines / whole bikes Very different to their existing Trials engines / bikes. 

Triumph -  The Bloors have taken Triumph from ruin, to what they are now. A successful mid sized Motorcycle Manufacturer. The Bloors don't eff about with what they do. I've a bit of involvement with their Thai and (now) Indian manufacturing, so I know a thing or two about the company. But No, I DON"T know a bloody thing about the coming 250s and 450s. 

A Big part of the 4 stroke 'revolution' in Dirt Bikes, was the whole Superbike driven development in 4 strokes with the major manufacturers. With that, there was an enormous amount of 4T engine development, that could , and was, applied to 4t Dirt Bikes. The jump from the first YZFs, from things like TTs, XRs etc, was enormous, and, it was a shared development with Road Engines, into essentially, the one stream, that was something that really appealed to major manufacturers. And, we should never forget the efforts of such companies as Husaberg and Husqvarna.

That easy usage of developments, And the dreadful, absolutely f**ked up Handicap Class Rules tilted things so much in favour to 4ts, and left 2 strokes to the European manufacturers, and Yamaha  with their 'Legacy' 2 strokes. That's NOT a disparagement on my part, I applaud them for continuing, and, indeed finally doing the new 125 engine last year - hopefully they may step it up with the 250 soon - the Minarelli developments perhaps? The 'others' deserting 2 strokes, made it quite a profitable revenue stream for those that didn't, that's for sure. 

So if this all comes to fruition we will have, KTM, Gas Gas, Husky, yamaha,Honda,Kawasaki,Suzuki(sort of) Triumph,Beta and Ducati in moto! There is no other series that can boast this much manufacturer involvement. Not motoGP, WSBK, Indy car, Nascar, or F1. I mean Indy car is now a spec series with two engine manufacturers. F1 is a closed shop where they don't want any outside competition and limit it to 20 cars, 10 teams. Moto is entering a new golden age as the more manufacturers the more the riders will be worth.  This kind of diversity is great!

What do you think sticker will be?

Not sure. My guess would be somewhere around where the KTM and Husky are, maybe more. Not looking to get one, just looking forward seeing what the bike looks like and how competitive it will be. 

It was rumored we would see it at Atlanta. Then that was scratched and we were told Red Bud. That’s come and gone. Perhaps we will see it at SMX?