Is it the 2023 HRC CRF450RWE or the riders that are allowing Honda to destroy the 450 class

burn1986
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7/9/2023 9:22am Edited Date/Time 7/9/2023 9:23am
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

Yep X2 

Jett even said he can’t push the Honda above 80%. 

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BigRedMachine
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7/9/2023 9:30am
As sexy as Jett and Chase make that bike look, the Honda feels like a terrifying death trap under my Vet B butt cheeks. I like...

As sexy as Jett and Chase make that bike look, the Honda feels like a terrifying death trap under my Vet B butt cheeks. I like that motocross is always a little scary, but that chassis takes it too far. It’s like a wild horse that you’re never confident is completely broken. One moment you’re galloping around, merry as can be, the next you’re laying on your back and gasping for air while the bike stares down at you like “try again, dickhead.” 
 

So yeah… sick bike, but I’ not about to buy one.

 

So! based on the AMA rules, it sounds like the biggest difference between a Factory bike and what you can buy on the showroom floor is...

So! based on the AMA rules, it sounds like the biggest difference between a Factory bike and what you can buy on the showroom floor is the suspension according to Roger Decoster in this video and the frame and swingarm on a factory bike has to be standard and the same dimensions to the stocker.  I find my 2023 CRF450RWE to be an absolute blast to ride and very confidence inspiring.  Just like any bike, you have to customize the suspension to your liking, because no two people are the same, but once you get it dialed it's pretty nice.  I know that what the Factory guys get as far as suspension is almost un-obtainable to us average folk, but the AMA rules are pretty consistent across the brands to what is pretty much a stock bike and what they can do to turn them into a factory race bike.  If the stocker is the starting point and all the factory race teams can do modifications to the engine and suspension within the rules as long as they stay within the same stock frame standards, wouldn't that mean that the Honda CRF450 is the best right now to set up for a factory team.   If the stock Honda is the worst in the opinions of some, then Jett and Chase and making a bad bike look amazingly good.

 

  

It’s not a matter of parts I can or can’t obtain, it’s a matter of skill I don’t have and a lack of time to put...

It’s not a matter of parts I can or can’t obtain, it’s a matter of skill I don’t have and a lack of time to put adequate hours on a bike.
 

Chase and Jett can manage a high strung bike. They can make a mistake, recover it, and immediately go back to 100% race pace without missing a beat. They can put a full time job’s worth of hours on the bike and time in the gym to keep their skills and fitness at the necessary levels. 
 

I can’t do those things. It’s why I’m a vet B rider posting on vital and not a professional, and it’s why I don’t want to ride a Honda.

I think a lot of times, certain bikes are identified as death traps and unrideable for the average rider, kind of the same way some people who grew up riding 4-strokes now dislike 2-strokes, because they require more effort to ride fast.  For a long time, 4-strokes were identified as boring motorcycles that were almost the equivalent of a sofa with two wheels bolted to it, because they were so easy to ride, but not very exciting. Then when a 4-stroke race bike like the Honda CRF450 is created, but requires more work to ride fast compared to other 4-strokes, it's labeled a Death trap.  It's kind of a strange balance manufacturers have to go through to develop a dirt bike that's not boring, but also not too extreme.   I think all the 250 and 450F bikes today are damn good and just need a little tinkering to customize them to your riding abilities.  I have an 1987 Honda CR500 that I use to ride pretty damn good, but then got use to the 4-strokes and parked it for a number of years, then I decided to ride it again and thought I was going to kill myself on it, is it a bad bike Hell! no, but it does require a different approach to ride it.    I just think what Jett and Chase are doing this year shows that the current CRF450's are good bikes that might just need a bit more effort to set up. 

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BigRedMachine
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7/9/2023 9:36am
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

burn1986 wrote:

Yep X2 

Jett even said he can’t push the Honda above 80%. 

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that bike past 80% of it's potential and I don't think Honda would appreciate one of it's employees saying that about their product.   I do remember somebody quoting that Tomac said the factory YZF450 was too fast and needed to be de-tuned, but I never heard him say that on video. 

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7/9/2023 9:56am
Jett riding style does relly fit the Honda chassi, and Sextons does not really. Jett is much farther back on the bike and stands almost straight...

Jett riding style does relly fit the Honda chassi, and Sextons does not really. Jett is much farther back on the bike and stands almost straight up. While Sexton is over the front alot wich does not fit a bike that alreday has a front end bias chassi.

I can agree with this.

The Shop

7/9/2023 10:00am
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

burn1986 wrote:

Yep X2 

Jett even said he can’t push the Honda above 80%. 

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that...

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that bike past 80% of it's potential and I don't think Honda would appreciate one of it's employees saying that about their product.   I do remember somebody quoting that Tomac said the factory YZF450 was too fast and needed to be de-tuned, but I never heard him say that on video. 

Yeah, where's the proof this was stated? If true, that's very scary for the competition. 

burn1986
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7/9/2023 8:59pm Edited Date/Time 7/9/2023 9:08pm
Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that...

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that bike past 80% of it's potential and I don't think Honda would appreciate one of it's employees saying that about their product.   I do remember somebody quoting that Tomac said the factory YZF450 was too fast and needed to be de-tuned, but I never heard him say that on video. 

It was in an interview with him, I think it was from Vital. He said the bike will “bite back” if it’s pushed too hard so he rides around 80%. It might’ve been with AJ Cataranzo. I’ll try to find it.

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mx313
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7/9/2023 9:35pm
Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that...

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that bike past 80% of it's potential and I don't think Honda would appreciate one of it's employees saying that about their product.   I do remember somebody quoting that Tomac said the factory YZF450 was too fast and needed to be de-tuned, but I never heard him say that on video. 

burn1986 wrote:
It was in an interview with him, I think it was from Vital. He said the bike will “bite back” if it’s pushed too hard so...

It was in an interview with him, I think it was from Vital. He said the bike will “bite back” if it’s pushed too hard so he rides around 80%. It might’ve been with AJ Cataranzo. I’ll try to find it.

There's this. About 2.30 in.

https://youtu.be/rSQNrJsdCDc

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BigRedMachine
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7/9/2023 9:53pm
Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that...

Did you just make that up or do you have a link to Jett actually saying that.   Hard to believe he'd say he can't ride that bike past 80% of it's potential and I don't think Honda would appreciate one of it's employees saying that about their product.   I do remember somebody quoting that Tomac said the factory YZF450 was too fast and needed to be de-tuned, but I never heard him say that on video. 

burn1986 wrote:
It was in an interview with him, I think it was from Vital. He said the bike will “bite back” if it’s pushed too hard so...

It was in an interview with him, I think it was from Vital. He said the bike will “bite back” if it’s pushed too hard so he rides around 80%. It might’ve been with AJ Cataranzo. I’ll try to find it.

mx313 wrote:

There's this. About 2.30 in.

https://youtu.be/rSQNrJsdCDc

Hmm! considering how fast Jett is, it's surprising to hear him say he only rides that Honda at 80%    Thank you for posting that. 

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ctbale
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7/9/2023 10:09pm

Hondas will bite you, ask Eli, Tray, Chad while following RV, Kenny..... and more.

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7/9/2023 11:58pm
brimx153 wrote:
Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made...

Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made that Suzuki look alot better than 7 .5

All through Supercross I thought Kenny was struggling more than I've ever seen, he still made things work but it wasn't tidy like we expect from him. He looked the same when he turned up at outdoors, although part of that was track condition. Lots of footdabs, repositioning in the air, less lean angle in corners etc. I genuinely believe the Suzuki is a half step below the rest and is ever so slightly holding him back from his very best.

As far as Ferrandis goes, I'd wager it's more to do with his injuries and months of not being able to train whatsoever than the bike being a dog. I mean it's Star we're talking about here, they don't generally miss, and they will do whatever it takes to make the bike as good as possible.

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7/10/2023 8:45am
Falcon wrote:
It's 90% rider, 10% bike.  So yes, to the extent that it matters, which is 10%, the Honda is the best factory MX bike on the...

It's 90% rider, 10% bike. 

So yes, to the extent that it matters, which is 10%, the Honda is the best factory MX bike on the track. It's like a full 10%, while the Yamaha is like 9.5%. A stock Kawasaki is apparently somewhere around 8%, because Ty Masterpool is killing it and beating factory KX450s on one. And, of course, riding a kickstart Suzuki puts you way down in a hole at somewhere around 7.5%.

Jett Lawrence would still be 12-0, even if he were on a Suzuki. 

brimx153 wrote:
Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made...

Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made that Suzuki look alot better than 7 .5

Gravel wrote:
Look at the difference between the blue 450s and 250s. The 250s are on rails, the 450s not so much. The new frame hasn’t been figured...

Look at the difference between the blue 450s and 250s. The 250s are on rails, the 450s not so much. The new frame hasn’t been figured out yet.

This has pretty much been the case throughout the entire life of the 'backwards' YZFs. 
Only the past couple of years the 450 has performed, and that coincided with Star buying the right riders. Go figure. 

The problem isn't the bike. 

Gravel
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7/10/2023 10:11am
brimx153 wrote:
Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made...

Tell DF 14 the Yamaha is 9.5 . Cause that bike continues to look like shit . Roczen got very close to jet . And made that Suzuki look alot better than 7 .5

Gravel wrote:
Look at the difference between the blue 450s and 250s. The 250s are on rails, the 450s not so much. The new frame hasn’t been figured...

Look at the difference between the blue 450s and 250s. The 250s are on rails, the 450s not so much. The new frame hasn’t been figured out yet.

This has pretty much been the case throughout the entire life of the 'backwards' YZFs.  Only the past couple of years the 450 has performed, and...

This has pretty much been the case throughout the entire life of the 'backwards' YZFs. 
Only the past couple of years the 450 has performed, and that coincided with Star buying the right riders. Go figure. 

The problem isn't the bike. 

Agree that it’s not the bike. The problem is that when a new design bike comes out every 4 years or so, it usually takes at least a full year to get the thing figured out for the factory level guys. 

fourfourone
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7/10/2023 11:41am
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up. 

Big difference from media test riders and guys like jett and chase. 

BigRedMachine
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7/10/2023 3:04pm
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up.  Big difference from media test riders...

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up. 

Big difference from media test riders and guys like jett and chase. 

Anybody have access to the AMA rule book, I thought the frame and swingarms had to be stock on factory bikes, but suspension and engine modifications were allowed.  Sounds like if the frame is being modified, that would be a rule violation. 

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7/10/2023 3:21pm
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up.  Big difference from media test riders...

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up. 

Big difference from media test riders and guys like jett and chase. 

Anybody have access to the AMA rule book, I thought the frame and swingarms had to be stock on factory bikes, but suspension and engine modifications...

Anybody have access to the AMA rule book, I thought the frame and swingarms had to be stock on factory bikes, but suspension and engine modifications were allowed.  Sounds like if the frame is being modified, that would be a rule violation. 

I’m pretty sure you can add material, but not remove it

7/10/2023 4:09pm
Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up.  Big difference from media test riders...

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up. 

Big difference from media test riders and guys like jett and chase. 

Anybody have access to the AMA rule book, I thought the frame and swingarms had to be stock on factory bikes, but suspension and engine modifications...

Anybody have access to the AMA rule book, I thought the frame and swingarms had to be stock on factory bikes, but suspension and engine modifications were allowed.  Sounds like if the frame is being modified, that would be a rule violation. 

I’m pretty sure you can add material, but not remove it

This. You can add, but can't remove or change frame dimensions. If I remember correctly, last outdoor season Honda moved the shock mount on the frame for Chase/Kenny.

gregyou
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7/10/2023 10:48pm
twotwosix wrote:

Chase doesn't even really love that bike. Hence the switching of brands to a more stable chassis. (KTM)

The ktm more stable? How many crashes did Webb have ? How many has AP had? And both mookie and Cc out from crashes with that bike 

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BigRedMachine
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7/11/2023 5:31am
twotwosix wrote:

Chase doesn't even really love that bike. Hence the switching of brands to a more stable chassis. (KTM)

gregyou wrote:
The ktm more stable? How many crashes did Webb have ? How many has AP had? And both mookie and Cc out from crashes with that...

The ktm more stable? How many crashes did Webb have ? How many has AP had? And both mookie and Cc out from crashes with that bike 

Right, and Barcia almost killed himself and is out riding that Death Trap of a motorcycle Gas Gas

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aledei
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7/11/2023 6:21am Edited Date/Time 7/11/2023 6:22am
eddie wrote:
Honda 250s are pretty good too …    

Honda 250s are pretty good too …

 

597AF380-DC12-458C-BBC5-1D1446830CB3

 

Deegang was fast ....because was on a HondaLaughing first Yama is 5th

 

MXP
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7/11/2023 7:21am

If Tomac didn't rupture his achilles, this post wouldn't exist. 

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183Matt
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7/11/2023 7:23am

I think jett could win on a 2001 yz426 at this point. 

I agree 100%, so long as he didn’t stall it.

Jett, like so many of the past ultra talented riders, is on another level.  

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kiwifan
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7/11/2023 4:33pm
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

burn1986 wrote:

Yep X2 

Jett even said he can’t push the Honda above 80%. 

of course he could be playing mind games, and would be prefectly comfortable going over 80% who knows

kage173
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7/14/2023 9:13am

Honda has one 450 championship in the past 20 years and it took 2 people getting hurt in the last 3 rounds to get it. So their bike isn't destroying anything 

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BigRedMachine
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7/14/2023 9:48am
kage173 wrote:
Honda has one 450 championship in the past 20 years and it took 2 people getting hurt in the last 3 rounds to get it. So...

Honda has one 450 championship in the past 20 years and it took 2 people getting hurt in the last 3 rounds to get it. So their bike isn't destroying anything 

How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider that might have a perfect season in 2023.   Seem's like Honda has a pretty damn good system going right now.   Riders like Zach Osborne, Ken Roczen and Dylan Ferrandis have won championships and eaten Eli Tomacs' lunch in Motocross, while he was on the Kawasaki, so the bike does make a big difference. 

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mxb2
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7/14/2023 9:52am
kage173 wrote:
Honda has one 450 championship in the past 20 years and it took 2 people getting hurt in the last 3 rounds to get it. So...

Honda has one 450 championship in the past 20 years and it took 2 people getting hurt in the last 3 rounds to get it. So their bike isn't destroying anything 

How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider...

How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider that might have a perfect season in 2023.   Seem's like Honda has a pretty damn good system going right now.   Riders like Zach Osborne, Ken Roczen and Dylan Ferrandis have won championships and eaten Eli Tomacs' lunch in Motocross, while he was on the Kawasaki, so the bike does make a big difference. 

Kroc never won a hrc. Title

1
7/14/2023 9:55am
I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this. No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and...

I'm gonna bet a Honda fanboi posted this.

No, actually the current gen Honda frames are known to be finicky to setup, rigid, not stable, and twitchy at speed. That's according to all the moto media outlets, they all say the same thing. Honda finishes near the bottom of the shootouts. What you're witnessing are the two best riders in the class on factory bikes with unobtanium... 

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up.  Big difference from media test riders...

Media says the bike is too ridged, but many factory guys have been adding chassis bracing to stiffen it up. 

Big difference from media test riders and guys like jett and chase. 

I don't think they are trying to stiffen it up, but adjusting the flex characteristics to suit them better. 

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kage173
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7/14/2023 10:24am
How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider...

How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider that might have a perfect season in 2023.   Seem's like Honda has a pretty damn good system going right now.   Riders like Zach Osborne, Ken Roczen and Dylan Ferrandis have won championships and eaten Eli Tomacs' lunch in Motocross, while he was on the Kawasaki, so the bike does make a big difference. 

That will give that entire manufacturer the same number of 450 championships as Cooper Webb and 1 more than Jason Anderson 

mxb2
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7/14/2023 10:42am
How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider...

How's that, Team Honda is poised to win EVERY! AMA SX and MX Championship that was up for grabs this year and a rookie 450 rider that might have a perfect season in 2023.   Seem's like Honda has a pretty damn good system going right now.   Riders like Zach Osborne, Ken Roczen and Dylan Ferrandis have won championships and eaten Eli Tomacs' lunch in Motocross, while he was on the Kawasaki, so the bike does make a big difference. 

kage173 wrote:

That will give that entire manufacturer the same number of 450 championships as Cooper Webb and 1 more than Jason Anderson 

A tomac gift. Also to chase. And osbourne. When he had 2 dnf s. Eat his lunch. Lol.   

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