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"You don’t case your frame a bunch and walk away from it."
You do in hard enduro, but the Stark is a motocross bike!
The thing about HDPE skids is that they allow some deflection and they slide across rocks way better than aluminum. Those are usually great traits, unless you’re protecting something fragile and spontaneously combustible. Aluminum lets you know it’s taken a hard hit by denting, HDPE is so tough that you can’t really tell if it’s been bashed.
The years of bashing my frame on rocks are over, but I promise you that good desert guys will case stuff pretty regularly and a skid plate designed like a helmet won’t last very long. OTOH, the Varg isn’t a desert sled anyway so a soft underbelly probably doesn’t matter..
The foam under the skid plate would tell you if it had been compressed. Plus the battery case still has the cells inside that would also need to be damaged. It would be kinda like oil from a gas bike being contained inside multiple smaller containers inside the engine. Just cracking the battery case would not mean 100% chance of damage to a cell. But would most likely allow oil to drain out on a gas bike. Inside that aluminium battery case there are a bunch of cells that are like the non rechargeable batteries used in TV remotes, RC remotes, toys, flashlights , etc. with their own little metal case around each cell. I have not watched any of the videos showing the Varg battery being put together, But I would think there is also some more foam or some kind of insulator between the cells and the case.
And if you are denting Aluminium plates often , the chance of taking 2 hits on the same ride would increase. If you dent it in, then take another hit it has no place to go but into the item it is protecting. Plastic rebounding gives it a better chance of protecting from multiple hits depending on the type of plastic used.
Maybe they can work on more protection if needed when they come out with an enduro speced bike. I would think that battery range would become an issue more often with a longer off road race that required oversized tanks on a gas bike anyway. Endurocross might be different. But really if you are not destroying engine cases , leaking oil often , You are most likely not going to have an issue.
The cells of the battery are more protected than the Oil of a gas powered bike. Damage that results in a small oil leak may not cause any damage to any of the cells. Cordless tools have plastic cases and are dropped from heights onto concrete , rocks, etc. They use the exact same cells inside those plastic cases with less protection. Yes there may be damaged batteries , and fires. But I think they will be much less common with off road vehicles than vehicles meant for the street. Street vehicles will not have skid plates and the protection off road vehicles have, and are more likely to hit another vehicle while both vehicles are traveling at higher speeds. It is my opinion that there will be less fires with off road EV's . 4 strokes can catch fire when they backfire. I would be shocked if there were more Vargs catching fire than 4 strokes catching fire.
At the system level you have 20 times the voltage and 1000 times the current, and mass, on the proposed Stark.
There is no equivalency between dropping a tool battery and casing 500 pounds, 360 volts and 6.5kWh of bike and rider on a rock at 30 mph or the possible hidden issues during recharging, or after a salt water event.
The danger of fire and lethal electrocution are real challenges to deal with.
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Goldmember, I found you on youtube and love your stuff.
It’s so nice that Goldmember has already given up on doubting the performance or the mass production of the Varg and has now focused on the one argument every EV opponent falls back on when they run out of arguments:
But, the battery could catch on fire!
Man, I just picture Goldmember sitting back with a sinister smile on his face every time he posts in these Varg threads knowing he's got the goat of every EV supporter here.
Yah its a lot higher overall voltage. and the vehicle itself is heavier than the tool and battery. But You still have the same cells that are put together to make up that voltage. And it only takes damaging 1 cell to cause an issue right? You can take a single 18650 or 21700 cell and drive a nail through it and it will catch fire. Are there tons of cordless tools bursting into flames?? You could cut into a pack by mistake, or shoot a nail into one, or run one over with a 50K pound excavator when you forget your M18 grease gun on the tracks. Just because something can happen, does not mean that it will happen often.
I was making more of a statement saying the Varg has much more protection of those same cells than a powertool battery. Damaging a powertool battery may not have the same risk of shock, but you would have a similar risk of fir when damaging one.
Sasquatch, you are no doubt familiar with haystack spontaneous combustion.
Not the same chemistry but the same effect when the heat dissipation path is lengthy in a big battery.
Mass production????
It's sport.
Have you ever had a gas engine get so hot that it will not shut off?? That can happen too. And if you know what to watch out for You can stop it from happening just like you can with electric. There are things that make the Electric bike safer to ride than gas bikes , and that make them more reliable. It doesn't mean that they will hold up to anything and do everything . They do not have to , to be better, they just have to do the same things a little better than the gas bikes.
Take Jett Lawrence. You could say He is the best 450 rider right now in the US. Could he still be the best if Tomac was there , maybe ,maybe not. But like the Varg , he can only compete against his competition. If he wins the title by 1 point and never won an overall he is still the best just like if he wins every moto and the title by 50 points. Being the best , just means better than the rest. Not perfect.
I could win the lottery if i played it. There could be Aliens from another planet. You might be serious with your round and round arguments. Lots of things are possible and unlikely. I know there will be unforeseen issues with anything new after it gets into the hands of people who do not understand the item and its weakness as well as the people who have built them. That is just common sense as far as I am concerned. But so much of the arguments You make could have been copied and pasted from the propaganda put out by the people selling Whale oil back in the day. Or Kerosene after that, Or gasoline when cars were first a thing. A lot of the issues you bring up remind me of the history channel when they show the story of Standard oil, Nikola Tesla, etc. And they talk about how the people with the older tech that was going to be obsolete all made the same arguments. I feel like I'm in the Movie groundhog day.
Oh, you mean when you hilariously lowballed me and got pissed trying to tell me you know the market and know what its going to sell for? I wasn't the upset one. You were! lmao. Well guess what? I sold the bike for exactly what i was asking for. Guess you didn't know the market that well after all. And for some reason you continue to slander me publicly on the forums as if you have experienced PTSD after me not accepting your hilariously low ball offer. But ok, i'm the prick?
Look in the mirror.
As somebody who is into electric RC and lithium batteries, the risk of fire is certainly real. I wouldn’t be too concerned about it for my own safety but it’s definitely a risk given the application.
Wonder what the incidence is of fires on electric mountain bikes?
I rode the electric KTM today. First electric bike I've ever ridden. Wow was it powerful and fun. It's nothing like what is to come or even already here with the varg/alta. But I was impressed with the motor and power delivery for sure. In 10-15 years electric bikes will be the majority in my opinion.🤷♀️
I've had Shorai lithium starter batteries in my riding mower and in my ducati for 10 years. the same 2 batteries. not only haven't they started any fires, but they are also still working.
Those flat pouch cells are much more prone to mechanical damage and are electrically stressed to the absolute limit in RC racing. The Vargs battery is comparable to the battery of a quality power tool. How many Makita batteries have you seen on fire? With a standard BMS the risk is negligible.
How high is the risk of fire having a gallon of race fuel in a thin plastic tank directly above a high performance four stroke engine? Motocross is dangerous but gasoline fires or battery fires certainly are the least of my concerns.
Pit Row
Vaporware catches fire?
I rode an e-freeride two years ago and had a lot of fun fooling around with it. I hope Stark makes a lighter, less powered and maybe cheaper play bike in the future. Something in between a Varg and a Surron.
In off-road riding maybe it’ll take few year to replace gas bikes, but in motocross electric bikes will take over much quicker. In two or three years the big manufacturers will have them too and then the majority of motocross bike will be electric. It’s just the superior concept if range isn’t an issue.
Why wouldn't stark have the same problem as all other car and electric bike manufacturers. delivery times of more than a year are normal everywhere.
And stark won't be at the forefront of the components supply as they're only just on the market.
I'm a industrial automation guy the delivery times are a drama if you can get anything at all, and much of the components we use they also use it in electric cars an bikes, but also in normal cars.
There is hardly any electronics in an ICE dirt bike, they don't have that problem.
I doubt the OEMs will have electric motocross bikes in two to three years, more likely five to six years, development takes time, and the Varg has caught them off guard, KTM said a full sized electric motocross bike was not feasible!
So if I came out with a new power source of this super highly flammable liquid that everyone would pour into plastic tanks and go riding in the hills you would pre order said bike?
🤡
Maybe you’re kind of douchey and just don’t know it?
I think you mean smart, articulate and...
Joking, nothing against the dude, just fun and games
If Stark will sell the numbers they have on pre-order you’ll see KTM magically change their mind…
If their sales numbers go down because of the Varg, Mr. Pierer will pump the money into R&D. They’ve probably already sent a few engineers down to Croatia to discuss some technical partnership with the guys who did the engineering on the Varg
Look at the YZ400f. This one Japanese engineer was convinced it’s the better concept but he couldn’t get the funding bc twostrokes were selling just fine. He designed it in his free time, got one built and the rest is history. Didn’t take Honda long to built the CRF after Yami sold a lot of YZFs.
The YZ400F's first model year was 1998, Honda's CRF450R was 2002, it took Honda 4 years to release a comparable model using technology (4 strokes engines) and manufacturing processes they were familiar with from other models. It will take longer to develop electric bikes, and convert existing manufacturing processes.
The guys in Croatia designed the inverter, not the battery pack, the battery pack was designed by Anton and Paul...
The battery pack is the Vargs biggest improvement over the Alta, the Alta's battery would overheat if it tried drawing as much power as the Varg out of it's battery. This is the issue the OEMs need to solve, they can't copy Stark's battery pack, it's patented, they will have to find different cooling solutions or pay royalties to use Stark's design.
No doubt all the OEMs have Vargs on order, they need something to bench mark and reverse engineer, but like a lot of customers they will still be waiting for delivery!
KTM, Honda (who via the Mugen Shinden, have had winning race E bikes for 15 years), and the others, could all get a full size MX to market very quickly. They are not technically bereft.
The reason they don't is that the Range, Weight and Price equation doesn't add up for EMX
To be able do the 40 minutes or so Pro moto requires is gonna need a much bigger and heavier battery and a far more hefty price tag than the unraced and unproven Stark.
KTM know 320 to 350lb, $20,000 MXers (let alone Enduro bikes) are not viable. There needs to be a step change in battery power density before you see anything serious.
It's not happening with existing tech or it would have.
Interesting, thanks for posting that. Their patent approved yesterday.
There are literally dozens of EV battery patents, and maybe more importantly cell construction designs.
That Stark design is simple, but nothing remarkable cooling performance wise, compared to flooded cell designs.
As of now has not been tested in racing so how it goes in highly dynamic situations- both electrically and mechanically are unknown.
Battery and cell design and construction is rapidly changing but power density is increasing only incrementally because the underpinning chemistry is maxed out. Making battery cases is the easy part. Anyone with a mill could make something as simple.
Fair point! Maybe it’ll take them longer.
Have you read the claims of that patent application? The first two or three claims are important and are easily avoidable if you want to build something similar. This application just protects them from somebody directly copying them. Nothing to worry about for other manufacturers.
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