Sur Ron smashers

cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/18/2023 8:54am

If you were around in the early mx years, there was a lot of backyard engineering that went into bikes of that era. If it wasn't for those bikes, modern bikes would not be where they are today. All I can say is, until you ride one, you will never know how good they are. If you see me at GH on mine, come over and you can spin a few laps. You can then have a better idea of what they really are.

4
eddie
Posts
3020
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Bragg Creek, AB CA
2/18/2023 8:56am Edited Date/Time 2/18/2023 8:57am
zehn wrote:

Had no idea so many people were doing electric conversions! This is awesome 

-MAVERICK- wrote:

8k conversions with no engineering are awesome?

To each their own, I guess. 

Its early days Mav , this is just beginning .
 

Also , waterproofing is not going to be a problem . 

2
1
johnk408
Posts
1060
Joined
1/20/2022
Location
Ft Mitchell, KY US
2/18/2023 8:59am
Muddy Ice wrote:

Cool looking bikes.  Here is a cool vid I haven't seen posted with another homemade but advanced electric design that uses an existing chassis-->

https://youtu.be/de50nfe2z5E

I had seen that one from MXA before. That guy at least is an engineer at John Deere in their electric vehicle department (or something along those lines) and did the bike as a side project/hobby.

2/18/2023 9:18am

If you can place the weight with motor/batts/electronics as close as the engine/trans/gas you will have very close handling characteristics as the ICE version. 

if you shoehorn it in over some PBR with friends I’m sure you can still build a rocket. 

The Shop

-MAVERICK-
Posts
65322
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario CA
2/18/2023 9:26am
eddie wrote:

Its early days Mav , this is just beginning .
 

Also , waterproofing is not going to be a problem . 

Perhaps, but for 8k I'd buy a bike I know works and handles properly, but that's just me.

2
1
jleews6
Posts
2304
Joined
8/3/2008
Location
Hardy, VA US
2/18/2023 9:38am

I'm not an electric vehicle guy at all but how do people get on here and start saying how bad it is without riding or testing it themselves ?  The sheet metal around the motor looks like it needs some cleaning up but other than that I dont think it looks terrible. I would like to ride one and see how it rides and handles.

3
cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/18/2023 9:46am Edited Date/Time 2/26/2023 5:43pm

The sheet metal on the lower sides just covers the open area blow the battery. The motor with built in reduction is so small, there is an area that is clear. Countershaft placement is most critical and very achievable. My CRF250 comes in at 230 lbs. with a 50AH battery.

3
zehn
Posts
7859
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
2/18/2023 10:29am
zehn wrote:

Had no idea so many people were doing electric conversions! This is awesome 

-MAVERICK- wrote:

8k conversions with no engineering are awesome?

To each their own, I guess. 

It was mostly tongue in cheek 

1
1
number six
Posts
377
Joined
2/27/2019
Location
efnli77643qrv, FM US
2/18/2023 10:51am
-MAVERICK- wrote:

Perhaps, but for 8k I'd buy a bike I know works and handles properly, but that's just me.

Yeah but it's not 8K, it's 8K plus the roller, have no idea what a modern roller costs, but guessing it's several thousand for something worthy of building up.  Even then, your'e likely starting with a used bike which will need freshening up in several areas.

It's understood that not a single bike has yet been delivered .. , but when it's all added up, the Stark Varg is a comparative bargain compared to hobby builds considering what comes with the platform ; 

A Brand new machine.  

A two year warranty. Having a warranty for a possible dead cell(s) is a big deal, & there's a dealer network to support it.  

6kw / 60 or 80hp ( the 72V hobby kit with a 50ah battery factors to 3.6 Kw, but 19 lbs lighter IS pretty sweet ! ) 

Fully user programable power output, flywheel effect, engine braking & traction control.

User determined shock & fork spring rates. 

Choice of 18 or 19" rear wheel.

Charger built into the supplied stand

Sebastian Tortelli's development input into the chassis, suspension & power delivery. 

EU certified protections for battery & circuitry systems

IP69K waterproof certification. 

& ... A lifetime supply of hair gel Smile  

It's an exciting time for E-moto bikes these days to be sure & I applaud any that undertake the endeavor of fabricating one up, even considered building one up myself, but when I factor for the above it just didn't make any sense .. even though I'm not all that happy with the seemingly glacial speed of getting Vargs into customers hands.  

 .

2
4
wildbill
Posts
4382
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Christmas Valley, OR US
2/18/2023 11:26am
JM485 wrote:
I work with these guys closely, and what you can do with their conversion kit is pretty incredible.  We used the same QS138 motor for our...

I work with these guys closely, and what you can do with their conversion kit is pretty incredible.  We used the same QS138 motor for our endurocross YZ build, the bike handled like a champ and it was a huge help for me not having to cover a clutch the whole time.  Using a perimeter frame as a starting point is a much better setup than what we used because you can fit a lot larger battery in between the frame spars, we chose the hardest possible bike to do this conversion on haha.


 FYI, the TruMoto controllers that they have coming out soon are going to be a game changer. . .

 

D567F6F7-C188-43BF-8557-FB04FD48A52C.jpeg?VersionId=j iZOI QRDmldjvTB5KdUQs

 

I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or the rider? Looks brutal!
1
2/18/2023 1:32pm
cmotodad wrote:
The sheet metal on the lower sides just covers the open area blow the battery. The motor with built in reduction is so small, there is...

The sheet metal on the lower sides just covers the open area blow the battery. The motor with built in reduction is so small, there is an area that is clear. Countershaft placement is most critical and very achievable. My CRF250 comes in at 230 lbs. with a 50AH battery.

What batteries are available?  To me, this would be a hobby project to have for play riding and riding in town as in the backyard, etc.  If I'm going to be really pushing the limits on a MX track hitting 100'ers and do it safely, I'm going to wait until the manufacturers release their engineered/manufactured bikes.  That doesn't mean that these aren't fun to play on and ride some on the vet tracks.  To me (as an engineer), this seems like a fun project and if I could build a system for <$5K including the rolling chassis, its worth it.  

2
RaceFace232
Posts
259
Joined
8/6/2021
Location
Northampton, MA US
2/18/2023 1:42pm
zehn wrote:

Had no idea so many people were doing electric conversions! This is awesome 

-MAVERICK- wrote:

8k conversions with no engineering are awesome?

To each their own, I guess. 

eddie wrote:

Its early days Mav , this is just beginning .
 

Also , waterproofing is not going to be a problem . 

Water is not a problem because…..?  Because you say so?  One of the guys who did a conversion says he doesn’t know.  I really don’t care if it is or isn’t, I don’t care if any of these are good or not, I don’t care if they sell or not.  Fact is once they are all we have to ride, many of us will look for other things to spend money on.  Too many of you BO guys keep thinking you’ll have choices between this and gas power.  Certainly not if you keep supporting the BP movement.

1
ns503
Posts
4555
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NS Toolies CA
2/18/2023 1:42pm
cmotodad wrote:
The sheet metal on the lower sides just covers the open area blow the battery. The motor with built in reduction is so small, there is...

The sheet metal on the lower sides just covers the open area blow the battery. The motor with built in reduction is so small, there is an area that is clear. Countershaft placement is most critical and very achievable. My CRF250 comes in at 230 lbs. with a 50AH battery.

TbonesPop wrote:
What batteries are available?  To me, this would be a hobby project to have for play riding and riding in town as in the backyard, etc. ...

What batteries are available?  To me, this would be a hobby project to have for play riding and riding in town as in the backyard, etc.  If I'm going to be really pushing the limits on a MX track hitting 100'ers and do it safely, I'm going to wait until the manufacturers release their engineered/manufactured bikes.  That doesn't mean that these aren't fun to play on and ride some on the vet tracks.  To me (as an engineer), this seems like a fun project and if I could build a system for <$5K including the rolling chassis, its worth it.  

A decent roller chassis will be that much.

2
rivvs
Posts
87
Joined
9/15/2011
Location
saguenay CA
2/18/2023 2:39pm

As someone who have previously built a conversion like that and is working on another one I will get the fact straight.

These bike are nowhere close to varg alta or 450cc power.

Spec of these bike:

20s10p p42a battery ( theorithical max output:450 amp for a few seconds)

qs 138 v3  motor

and chinese votol em200 controller.

The controller is maxed out at 350amp and the battery is 72v. 350x72= 25.2kw or 33.5 hp. This is before all loses from efficiency and drivetrain.

My previous build used the following:

20s20p molicel battery (theorithical max output:700 amp for a few seconds)

qs 138 90h motor which has a wider rotor which gives more torque per amp than the v3 used here.

asi bac 8000 controller.

my controller was maxed out at 450amp at 72v. 450x72=32.4kw or 42.9hp. Before loses from efficiency and drivetrain.

The was very fun to ride but it felt like a slow 250f. My 2021 crf250r was faster than this bike.

So saying that these bike are as fast as a stark varg is hilarious.

And most of the people who build these bike exxagerate quite a lot the performance that they get. And almost all of them have never been on a track before nor ridden a 450cc. There is group on facebook full of build like this.

Also my bike ended up in flames when the battery had a malfunction.

I am currently working on a new build but im looking to rave 450 with it and using parts that are have way more power than these( bigger motor water cooled battery and controller etc.)

6
2
JM485
Posts
5781
Joined
10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
2/18/2023 4:17pm
wildbill wrote:
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or...
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or the rider? Looks brutal!

It’s not as bad as it looks at that angle, but it’s is something we’re going to correct on the new battery box.  I never noticed when I was riding it but my boots did have a bit of wear in that area, so it’s definitely something that will be addressed.  
 

People in this thread are forgetting that bikes like this is how these trends start out. The first gas powered motorcycles were cobbled together from old bicycles by people in their backyards, and the same is happening with electric on a different scale.  Are all of these bikes perfect?  No.  But they’re a starting point and people are learning with every build.  The amount of knowledge out there vs only 2-3 years ago has grown exponentially and it’s only going to continue, we’ll look back on these backyard builds years from now a lot more fondly than we are now because they’re the jumping off point for greater things.  

7
1
Broseph
Posts
1187
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
2/18/2023 4:28pm
wildbill wrote:
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or...
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or the rider? Looks brutal!
JM485 wrote:
It’s not as bad as it looks at that angle, but it’s is something we’re going to correct on the new battery box.  I never noticed...

It’s not as bad as it looks at that angle, but it’s is something we’re going to correct on the new battery box.  I never noticed when I was riding it but my boots did have a bit of wear in that area, so it’s definitely something that will be addressed.  
 

People in this thread are forgetting that bikes like this is how these trends start out. The first gas powered motorcycles were cobbled together from old bicycles by people in their backyards, and the same is happening with electric on a different scale.  Are all of these bikes perfect?  No.  But they’re a starting point and people are learning with every build.  The amount of knowledge out there vs only 2-3 years ago has grown exponentially and it’s only going to continue, we’ll look back on these backyard builds years from now a lot more fondly than we are now because they’re the jumping off point for greater things.  

Negativity was spurred by the first post being a sales pitch full of BS with an $8k price tag.
 

Otherwise these things look awesome. Cool to see guys building their own!

3
2
wildbill
Posts
4382
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Christmas Valley, OR US
2/18/2023 5:05pm
wildbill wrote:
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or...
I like your perseverance JM485. Does the right angle edge, mid shin bone area, just aft of the 3.6 pose any pain to the you or the rider? Looks brutal!
JM485 wrote:
It’s not as bad as it looks at that angle, but it’s is something we’re going to correct on the new battery box.  I never noticed...

It’s not as bad as it looks at that angle, but it’s is something we’re going to correct on the new battery box.  I never noticed when I was riding it but my boots did have a bit of wear in that area, so it’s definitely something that will be addressed.  
 

People in this thread are forgetting that bikes like this is how these trends start out. The first gas powered motorcycles were cobbled together from old bicycles by people in their backyards, and the same is happening with electric on a different scale.  Are all of these bikes perfect?  No.  But they’re a starting point and people are learning with every build.  The amount of knowledge out there vs only 2-3 years ago has grown exponentially and it’s only going to continue, we’ll look back on these backyard builds years from now a lot more fondly than we are now because they’re the jumping off point for greater things.  

Heck yeah, and looks like a ton of fun too. Not that they weigh that much. 😆
1
cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/18/2023 7:56pm

I think you're a bit off Rivvs. I think I am safe to say, I have raced more races and been on a real race track more than you could even imagine. Is my bike as fast as a 450, no. Never claimed it was. Do you need that much power, no. Can you turn fast lap times on a real race track, yes. They do so many things differently than an ICE bike, I find it very difficult to compare.

1
BCE
Posts
47
Joined
4/15/2019
Location
NL
2/19/2023 12:26am Edited Date/Time 2/19/2023 12:28am
cmotodad wrote:
I think you're a bit off Rivvs. I think I am safe to say, I have raced more races and been on a real race track...

I think you're a bit off Rivvs. I think I am safe to say, I have raced more races and been on a real race track more than you could even imagine. Is my bike as fast as a 450, no. Never claimed it was. Do you need that much power, no. Can you turn fast lap times on a real race track, yes. They do so many things differently than an ICE bike, I find it very difficult to compare.

If you go to a racetrack, what is the ride time you get out of it?

I have the freeride and the Alta. I like them both a lot.
And since I got them I manly ride my backyard tracks.
But a couple months ago I was invited for a test on a motocross track.
It was a hardbase track and just a little bit muddy.

I could only get 5 laps in on the freeride, approx. 8 minutes.
Did an extra lap, pushed the bike 1/3 of it.
The battery is 3,9 kWh.

The Alta would do approx 15 min, with a 5,8 kWh battery.

On my smaller backyard tracks (low speed, more technical riding) I get around 15 min. on the freeride and an half hour on the Alta.
On a trail ride with tight single track i get around 40 min of riding on the freeride and around 22 km.

I was a little dissapointed with ride time on a motocross track.
And on a sandtrack it would be even shorter.

So for anyone looking at these for riding motocross tracks, remember you will be charging a lot more than riding.

3
RaceFace232
Posts
259
Joined
8/6/2021
Location
Northampton, MA US
2/19/2023 1:58am
cmotodad wrote:
I think you're a bit off Rivvs. I think I am safe to say, I have raced more races and been on a real race track...

I think you're a bit off Rivvs. I think I am safe to say, I have raced more races and been on a real race track more than you could even imagine. Is my bike as fast as a 450, no. Never claimed it was. Do you need that much power, no. Can you turn fast lap times on a real race track, yes. They do so many things differently than an ICE bike, I find it very difficult to compare.

BCE wrote:
If you go to a racetrack, what is the ride time you get out of it? I have the freeride and the Alta. I like them...

If you go to a racetrack, what is the ride time you get out of it?

I have the freeride and the Alta. I like them both a lot.
And since I got them I manly ride my backyard tracks.
But a couple months ago I was invited for a test on a motocross track.
It was a hardbase track and just a little bit muddy.

I could only get 5 laps in on the freeride, approx. 8 minutes.
Did an extra lap, pushed the bike 1/3 of it.
The battery is 3,9 kWh.

The Alta would do approx 15 min, with a 5,8 kWh battery.

On my smaller backyard tracks (low speed, more technical riding) I get around 15 min. on the freeride and an half hour on the Alta.
On a trail ride with tight single track i get around 40 min of riding on the freeride and around 22 km.

I was a little dissapointed with ride time on a motocross track.
And on a sandtrack it would be even shorter.

So for anyone looking at these for riding motocross tracks, remember you will be charging a lot more than riding.

This is the kind of objective presentation of real wold facts many want to know.  You like both but are disappointed in the track time and rightfully so. This is the first comment I’ve seen of what an Alta charge will last for, not that I’ve been searching.  All I’ve heard is what it “should” be based on nothing.  How does the Alta do in sand, like Southwick type terrain?  How does it do in mud?  You seem like you’ll provide honest answers.  

1
cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/19/2023 8:18am Edited Date/Time 2/19/2023 8:20am

My last ride was at GH on the REM track. I wanted to do a race day test. I rode 4 laps, as practice, came in and put the bike on the chargers. It took 20 minutes to get up to 83 volts. It is a 72 volt system Went out and did an 8 lap race moto. Laps times were just under 2 minutes When I came in the battery was at 75 volts. Put it directly on the chargers and 40 minutes later, the battery had 82v. Usually at least an hour between races, at this venue so a full charge is definitely possible. Didn't do a second race moto because there would be no race afterwards. I have ridden my bike on the main track, in an abbreviated layout and put in 6 laps. No big hill on that day. Power on the main track was a little down on the long start straight into Talladega but I was only in mode 2 with 3 modes available. Still trying to determine ride time versus power needed for lap times. Yes, I am old but run in the front in the expert class. I want to enter a Saturday at the Glen race and see how I place for comparison. For anyone interested

4
rivvs
Posts
87
Joined
9/15/2011
Location
saguenay CA
2/19/2023 10:16am
cmotodad wrote:
My last ride was at GH on the REM track. I wanted to do a race day test. I rode 4 laps, as practice, came in...

My last ride was at GH on the REM track. I wanted to do a race day test. I rode 4 laps, as practice, came in and put the bike on the chargers. It took 20 minutes to get up to 83 volts. It is a 72 volt system Went out and did an 8 lap race moto. Laps times were just under 2 minutes When I came in the battery was at 75 volts. Put it directly on the chargers and 40 minutes later, the battery had 82v. Usually at least an hour between races, at this venue so a full charge is definitely possible. Didn't do a second race moto because there would be no race afterwards. I have ridden my bike on the main track, in an abbreviated layout and put in 6 laps. No big hill on that day. Power on the main track was a little down on the long start straight into Talladega but I was only in mode 2 with 3 modes available. Still trying to determine ride time versus power needed for lap times. Yes, I am old but run in the front in the expert class. I want to enter a Saturday at the Glen race and see how I place for comparison. For anyone interested

Any video of your bike? And the specs?

cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/19/2023 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 2/19/2023 5:27pm

There is some of the new bike at Cahuilla, main and vet, GH both tracks. My son casmoto posts them up for me. A couple of him and couple of me. Most of these have been shorter shake down rides trying to sort out any issues. You can pm me and share any details

cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/20/2023 9:09pm

If you go to Youtube, Electron Racer has a 2001 RM125 with the V3. He has  video of racing a hare scrambles in Florida. It is a good video showing how competitive these conversions can be.

eddie
Posts
3020
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Bragg Creek, AB CA
2/20/2023 10:18pm
 

 

1
cmotodad
Posts
1006
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
2/21/2023 7:20am

Thank You, that is the one.

JK BRO
Posts
348
Joined
7/29/2021
Location
Oroville, CA US
Fantasy
2/21/2023 11:10am
eddie wrote:

Its early days Mav , this is just beginning .
 

Also , waterproofing is not going to be a problem . 

No way would I trust a ebike with that kind of voltage in the water. I seen the youtube vids of the ktm freeride being submerged but what a fkn idiot.

It would only take one bad ground for potential ESD. Terrifying to think you'd be motionless watching yourself drown.

KTM freeride is 18kw

1kw = 1000volts

11,000volts is likely death, imagine 18k.

1
38special
Posts
653
Joined
6/30/2010
Location
US
2/21/2023 11:31am

This thread has the kind of discussion I like to see on MX e-bikes.  People doing innovative DIY projects as it suits them.  And posting results.

Not a bunch of "e-bikes are the future, your dinosaur is dead" BS.

Good stuff.  Carry on.

 

early
Posts
9783
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
2/21/2023 11:31am
JK BRO wrote:
No way would I trust a ebike with that kind of voltage in the water. I seen the youtube vids of the ktm freeride being submerged...

No way would I trust a ebike with that kind of voltage in the water. I seen the youtube vids of the ktm freeride being submerged but what a fkn idiot.

It would only take one bad ground for potential ESD. Terrifying to think you'd be motionless watching yourself drown.

KTM freeride is 18kw

1kw = 1000volts

11,000volts is likely death, imagine 18k.

That's not how electricity works.

1
JK BRO
Posts
348
Joined
7/29/2021
Location
Oroville, CA US
Fantasy
2/21/2023 11:37am
JK BRO wrote:
No way would I trust a ebike with that kind of voltage in the water. I seen the youtube vids of the ktm freeride being submerged...

No way would I trust a ebike with that kind of voltage in the water. I seen the youtube vids of the ktm freeride being submerged but what a fkn idiot.

It would only take one bad ground for potential ESD. Terrifying to think you'd be motionless watching yourself drown.

KTM freeride is 18kw

1kw = 1000volts

11,000volts is likely death, imagine 18k.

early wrote:

That's not how electricity works.

Actually it is. An open ground does not complete the circuit. Therefore the circuit will look for the nearest ground through the conductive water until it finds one.

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