sand bagging at LL'S

swizcore
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swizcore 8/4/2009 8:54pm
8/4/2009 8:54pm
Nerds right; in fact I moved down about 3 skill classes just by having two sons and not riding for 7 years.
Blackopsrider7 8/4/2009 9:02pm
8/4/2009 9:02pm
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125 back then, as soon as he got on the big bike, it took him all of a a few weeks and he was blowing by me like i was standing still!!

So, some of the fast kids who on most minis run top 10 times for even A class should move to intermediate upon going to big bikes, only fair in my books. Otherwise they are sandbagging.
Nerd
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Nerd 8/4/2009 9:30pm
8/4/2009 9:30pm
Blackopsrider7 wrote:
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125...
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125 back then, as soon as he got on the big bike, it took him all of a a few weeks and he was blowing by me like i was standing still!!

So, some of the fast kids who on most minis run top 10 times for even A class should move to intermediate upon going to big bikes, only fair in my books. Otherwise they are sandbagging.
Because the one kid you knew defied the norm?

Kevin Windham went from 80cc Expert to 125/250cc Intermediate. Was he a cheater?
lumpy790
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lumpy790 8/4/2009 9:54pm
8/4/2009 9:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:20am
There is no 85 B class at LL.......only in some local areas. If he did not race at LL before he was legal.


You guys who have never been to LL have no idea. I snapped a few pictures and videos today of the track and the vastly changing conditions.


They are constantly working the track between races. If they pack down the short straight at the farthest end of the track that gets axle deep ruts....that alone could change a riders lap times by 4 or 5 seconds.

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gt80rider
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gt80rider 8/4/2009 9:54pm
8/4/2009 9:54pm
gt80rider wrote:
you guys are far to quick to judge..... a lot of crap goes down on an mx track.... that C rider may have cut (or been...
you guys are far to quick to judge..... a lot of crap goes down on an mx track.... that C rider may have cut (or been pushed off and forced to cut) a lap to get a 2:09..... you then have to check the rest of his laps..... if he didn't have any other laps faster than lets say a 2:15 or 2:19 or whatever, then you know he cut on one lap and wasn't sandbagging....
bobby397 wrote:
won by over 20seconds to quick to judge? and yes, there were more than one of the kids lap times around the 2:09 mark. wouldnt a...
won by over 20seconds to quick to judge? and yes, there were more than one of the kids lap times around the 2:09 mark. wouldnt a rider rather bragg about a 15th in the B class than a first in the C class? i would
i stand corrected..... LOL
Nerd
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Nerd 8/4/2009 9:57pm
8/4/2009 9:57pm
gt80rider wrote:
you guys are far to quick to judge..... a lot of crap goes down on an mx track.... that C rider may have cut (or been...
you guys are far to quick to judge..... a lot of crap goes down on an mx track.... that C rider may have cut (or been pushed off and forced to cut) a lap to get a 2:09..... you then have to check the rest of his laps..... if he didn't have any other laps faster than lets say a 2:15 or 2:19 or whatever, then you know he cut on one lap and wasn't sandbagging....
bobby397 wrote:
won by over 20seconds to quick to judge? and yes, there were more than one of the kids lap times around the 2:09 mark. wouldnt a...
won by over 20seconds to quick to judge? and yes, there were more than one of the kids lap times around the 2:09 mark. wouldnt a rider rather bragg about a 15th in the B class than a first in the C class? i would
gt80rider wrote:
i stand corrected..... LOL
I've had plenty of races where I won by 20 seconds or more, then the second moto got like fourth.

That's part of being a C rider - inconsistency.
Friday
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Friday 8/4/2009 10:30pm
8/4/2009 10:30pm
That does it! I'm going to LL's next year and I'm moving down a class. I'll be 47 so I'll just run the 30+ class instead of the 45+. If everyone else drops down and sandbags,I will too.Wink
lumpy790
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lumpy790 8/4/2009 10:39pm
8/4/2009 10:39pm
This is the 4th turn....sometimes its flat....sometimes its axle deep ruts.

the_wood109
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the_wood109 8/4/2009 10:39pm
8/4/2009 10:39pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:20am
bobby397 wrote:
http://teamdunlop.loopd.com/Members/NOAH/Results.aspx



same kid?
honda907 wrote:
looks like it. He has the credentials to be a good novice! He rides 85 intermediate back in 2006, and now he is a C rider...
looks like it. He has the credentials to be a good novice! He rides 85 intermediate back in 2006, and now he is a C rider! That is something to behold!

If it was me, I would be protesting!
Nerd wrote:
Everyone moves down a skill class when they move from minis to big bikes, with very rare exceptions.
I thought you had to run B if you qualified for lorrettas? I made it twice, but wouldn't have ridden C class even if I could have. Hell, I didn't like standing near the fence for C class, let alone ride with them.


Really sandbagging in C is going to happen ALWAYS in somebodys eyes. The reality is that teams don't care about C class anyways. Its not a class that generally produces alot of top talent.


It could change with the age changes, but not much. Age and skill go hand in hand in moto.
Nerd
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Nerd 8/4/2009 10:59pm
8/4/2009 10:59pm
honda907 wrote:
looks like it. He has the credentials to be a good novice! He rides 85 intermediate back in 2006, and now he is a C rider...
looks like it. He has the credentials to be a good novice! He rides 85 intermediate back in 2006, and now he is a C rider! That is something to behold!

If it was me, I would be protesting!
Nerd wrote:
Everyone moves down a skill class when they move from minis to big bikes, with very rare exceptions.
the_wood109 wrote:
I thought you had to run B if you qualified for lorrettas? I made it twice, but wouldn't have ridden C class even if I could...
I thought you had to run B if you qualified for lorrettas? I made it twice, but wouldn't have ridden C class even if I could have. Hell, I didn't like standing near the fence for C class, let alone ride with them.


Really sandbagging in C is going to happen ALWAYS in somebodys eyes. The reality is that teams don't care about C class anyways. Its not a class that generally produces alot of top talent.


It could change with the age changes, but not much. Age and skill go hand in hand in moto.
If you're forced to ride B and shouldn't, you won't qualify, so it's a non-issue.
the_wood109
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the_wood109 8/4/2009 11:03pm
8/4/2009 11:03pm
Sorry, I meant if you qualified on 85s...
Nerd
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Nerd 8/4/2009 11:38pm
8/4/2009 11:38pm
the_wood109 wrote:
Sorry, I meant if you qualified on 85s...
Yeah, it's true, but again, if you can't ride B, you won't qualify, so it's a non-issue.
JB 19
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JB 19 8/5/2009 12:00am
8/5/2009 12:00am
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Nerd
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Nerd 8/5/2009 12:27am
8/5/2009 12:27am
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
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Whitey 8/5/2009 3:18am
8/5/2009 3:18am
mx836 wrote:
Everybody at Loretta's in C class is a sand bagger. Might as well do away with those classes allt together. They mean nothing.
If everybody in that class is sandbagging nobody should care then haha

Just rename it "Sandbaggers" and see how many still nominate for that class.
Blackopsrider7 8/5/2009 5:41am
8/5/2009 5:41am
Blackopsrider7 wrote:
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125...
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125 back then, as soon as he got on the big bike, it took him all of a a few weeks and he was blowing by me like i was standing still!!

So, some of the fast kids who on most minis run top 10 times for even A class should move to intermediate upon going to big bikes, only fair in my books. Otherwise they are sandbagging.
Nerd wrote:
Because the one kid you knew defied the norm?

Kevin Windham went from 80cc Expert to 125/250cc Intermediate. Was he a cheater?
No, no, I'm not calling THEM cheaters, but the rules should be changed to reflect that. Hey, the rules are being rewritten for the 250 two smokes in the 250F class. Why not this one? No, it wasn't the only kid that stood out, there are many fast kids in super mini who run as fast lap times as some pros!! Why not put them in a class where they can better their skills running with faster or equal ? To be better you have to ride with the best right? It doesn't help when you are winning against slower riders!! Just more trophies, but where is the skill development? Just my take....
Butters
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Butters 8/5/2009 6:05am
8/5/2009 6:05am Edited Date/Time 8/5/2009 6:05am
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
You missed out on quite an experience.
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jeffro756 8/5/2009 6:29am
8/5/2009 6:29am
Blackopsrider7 wrote:
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125...
I rode with a buddy's kid that I beat all the time play riding. Well he was on an 85 and I was on a 125 back then, as soon as he got on the big bike, it took him all of a a few weeks and he was blowing by me like i was standing still!!

So, some of the fast kids who on most minis run top 10 times for even A class should move to intermediate upon going to big bikes, only fair in my books. Otherwise they are sandbagging.
Nerd wrote:
Because the one kid you knew defied the norm?

Kevin Windham went from 80cc Expert to 125/250cc Intermediate. Was he a cheater?
Nope Kevin didn't cheat, if he had dropped to the c class for any reason then yes he did cheat. The move from 80s is always a tough one cause that is a big jump in displacement, but I still think you know how to ride. The traditions of the c class were that you were brand new at this whole thing, and c class national championships seem silly.

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peelout719
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peelout719 8/5/2009 7:41am
8/5/2009 7:41am
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
after racing 80expert i raced one moto at the local level in the 125C class, absolutely killed it and moved up to B for the second moto. then i won that moto by a long ways. not the national level but i'm just sayin. some people get on the big bike and take off
jbomx363
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jbomx363 8/5/2009 8:21am
8/5/2009 8:21am
c class national championships seem silly.

Not when you factor in the $$$ that it brings in.

I think some may be confusing the old "C" class rules if your area didn't keep a points system.

That rule was very simple! If you raced in ANY CLASS regardless of age prior to ____ you couldn't enter the C class. The blank was I think usually 3 years before the year of LL's.

So for example..if you have raced prior to 2004 in ANY class, then you are ineligible to race the C class for LL's in 2006.

Now the C class rules take age into account and all kinds of mumbo jumbo which makes it very difficult to determine if you can race C class if you don't have a points keeping system.
NWMoto76
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NWMoto76 8/5/2009 10:28am
8/5/2009 10:28am Edited Date/Time 8/5/2009 10:50am
honda907 wrote:
If a guy qualified for LL at any time, even 50's,, I thought he could not ride C class because he rode in the big show...
If a guy qualified for LL at any time, even 50's,, I thought he could not ride C class because he rode in the big show, therefore not a novice?
Bingo!!....At least that's what I thought, rules might have changed. I was protested at the LL regional qualifier for the national qualifier in the early 90's because I rode 60cc 9 - 11 in 1989 at LL. I tried riding 125 C in 1993, my first year on a 125. We had a 4 class system locally: beg, jr, int, expt., but LL was C,B,A. I rode 80 int., then I took 13 months off with a compound fractured tibia and fibula in 91/92, came back raced a couple 80 races,was too big, then went to 125 jr.
squid48
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squid48 8/5/2009 10:48am
8/5/2009 10:48am
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
peelout719 wrote:
after racing 80expert i raced one moto at the local level in the 125C class, absolutely killed it and moved up to B for the second...
after racing 80expert i raced one moto at the local level in the 125C class, absolutely killed it and moved up to B for the second moto. then i won that moto by a long ways. not the national level but i'm just sayin. some people get on the big bike and take off
Exactly...

Whos to say this kid didnt get on this bike a few weeks before the LL qualifier, do well, put in some hard work, and come out swinging at LL??

Everyones gotta assume hes cheating, just because hes going fast.

One of our local kids Mark Braden got on big bikes about 6 months before world minis a few months ago... For those 6 months he never won a local race... he went to World minis and won 3 titles!!

Anything can happen in the C class...

Yea its not very important, but do you have any idea how good a LL title looks on a resume? Whether its PW class or C class or even Pro Sport; A LL title is a title.

More than most of us can say we have...
zookrider62!
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zookrider62! 8/5/2009 11:00am
8/5/2009 11:00am
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
LOL he never raced in the C class. Problem is he never raced B or A either. He just stopped racing after minis.
bobby397
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bobby397 8/5/2009 11:48am
8/5/2009 11:48am
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
most supermini and 85 SR class riders do jump up to the schoolboy or B classes and do well. my parents never let me race the C class because they claimed it was to dangerous. so i also jumped into the schoolboy class and the 125B class from the 85cc bikes.
bobby397
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bobby397 8/5/2009 11:55am
8/5/2009 11:55am
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
peelout719 wrote:
after racing 80expert i raced one moto at the local level in the 125C class, absolutely killed it and moved up to B for the second...
after racing 80expert i raced one moto at the local level in the 125C class, absolutely killed it and moved up to B for the second moto. then i won that moto by a long ways. not the national level but i'm just sayin. some people get on the big bike and take off
squid48 wrote:
Exactly... Whos to say this kid didnt get on this bike a few weeks before the LL qualifier, do well, put in some hard work, and...
Exactly...

Whos to say this kid didnt get on this bike a few weeks before the LL qualifier, do well, put in some hard work, and come out swinging at LL??

Everyones gotta assume hes cheating, just because hes going fast.

One of our local kids Mark Braden got on big bikes about 6 months before world minis a few months ago... For those 6 months he never won a local race... he went to World minis and won 3 titles!!

Anything can happen in the C class...

Yea its not very important, but do you have any idea how good a LL title looks on a resume? Whether its PW class or C class or even Pro Sport; A LL title is a title.

More than most of us can say we have...
the kid knows his speed! he can compare it to his brother who holds a AMA PRO LICENSE and has attend a few nationals this year. this family knows motocross and im sure they know the live in a district where they do not have a rider placement system.
bobby397
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bobby397 8/5/2009 11:59am
8/5/2009 11:59am
jbomx363 wrote:
[i][b]c class national championships seem silly.[/b][/i] Not when you factor in the $$$ that it brings in. I think some may be confusing the old "C"...
c class national championships seem silly.

Not when you factor in the $$$ that it brings in.

I think some may be confusing the old "C" class rules if your area didn't keep a points system.

That rule was very simple! If you raced in ANY CLASS regardless of age prior to ____ you couldn't enter the C class. The blank was I think usually 3 years before the year of LL's.

So for example..if you have raced prior to 2004 in ANY class, then you are ineligible to race the C class for LL's in 2006.

Now the C class rules take age into account and all kinds of mumbo jumbo which makes it very difficult to determine if you can race C class if you don't have a points keeping system.
X2, kid has been racing most of his life.
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bobby397 8/5/2009 12:01pm
8/5/2009 12:01pm
mudkipz wrote:
You're bitching about the guy who won 450C with a 2:09 but haven't said a word about the guy who came from 21st to 2nd?
just saw that on the lap chart, shouldn't be that easy at LL
JB 19
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JB 19 8/5/2009 12:32pm
8/5/2009 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:20am
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
Well, the rule used to state that if you had more than 2 years racing experience you couldn't race C. In Ohio it was common for kids to go straight from 80's to B.....and do very well.....even on a national level.


You speak like a cherry pickin C rider.



btw, I raced 50's, 60's and 80's at LL's, which would have disqualified me from the C class anyway.
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shaner708 8/5/2009 12:56pm
8/5/2009 12:56pm
JB 19 wrote:
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't...
I'm proud to say that I never raced one moto in the C class. If my newborn son ever decides he wants to race he won't either.

If he wants to we have a long talk about personal pride.
Nerd wrote:
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh? So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes...
Amazing. Never a single C race, huh?

So every single mini race you did was an age class and then you moved up to big bikes and were already B?

That's pretty amazing. Most people actually have to work their way up in speed. How did you not end up with a factory ride with that kind of talent?
zookrider62! wrote:
LOL he never raced in the C class. Problem is he never raced B or A either. He just stopped racing after minis.
Hes probably just old. My old man Never raced in his life until he was 25. His first race we went to a local race, signed up for B class and he won it. Times were different back then. C riders didnt jump anything and wanted to move to B class as soon as possible. Now everyone wants to stay down and bank contingency for as long as possible
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Toste 8/5/2009 1:26pm
8/5/2009 1:26pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:21am
Wouldn't all this shit just get put to rest if LL et al was only open to A riders? Aren't the Amateur Nationals supposed to be about racing for the absolute top tier amateurs? What is the point of B & C titles (besides causing rampant sandbagging all over the country)? I still haven't seen a good argument against it. People say MXsports wouldn't like it because it would cut back on entries (a.k.a. $$$), but why does it have to? Why couldn't the spots for current B & C riders just get turned over to more A riders?

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