AMA Motocross Commission Claiming Rules Proposed Changes for 2023

planter
Posts
54
Joined
10/12/2017
Location
USA
8/18/2022 6:06am
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three days to return it.

Here are a couple other proposed changed I'd like to submit for consideration by the AMA:

1. Claims and protests must be handled exclusively by the designated event AMA official. The event promotor, event contractors or representatives, even if they also act as AMA officials eleswhere, cannot be involved in a claim or protest at an event they are promoting, working at or recieving compensation from. No party recieving compensation from the Event Promoters shall be involved in any way with a claim or protest.

2. Any AMA official that has recieved parts or motorcycles that are not readily availible to the public and/or at a discounted prices from full retail or MSRP from a manufacturer, corportation, LLC, or Sole Business Propriety involved in any manner in a claim or protest shall be deemed in conflict of interest and recuse themselves in whole from the claim or protest. In such an event, the designated back-up AMA event Officail shall hadles that claim or protest.

There must be integrety, independance and trust in the process and those were severely lacking at the National.
2
5
Crash81
Posts
24
Joined
10/29/2021
Location
Dexter, MI, USA
8/18/2022 6:07am
SX_336 wrote:
Just curious. What happens if a bike is claimed and the rider has more events to race and decides to crash the bike or seize the...
Just curious. What happens if a bike is claimed and the rider has more events to race and decides to crash the bike or seize the motor up doing a burn out for the fans? For instance, Deegan could have crashed and waded the bike up in the last moto or seized up the engine. Does the team or rider just hand the bike over as is or are they responsible for fixing the bike and then handing it over? Can they say, sorry, we don’t have the money or resources here to fix it?

Seems like the obvious solution is to allow claiming to be done after the RIDER's final moto, not the CLAIMER's final moto.
1
budlong802
Posts
71
Joined
4/5/2010
Location
Vacaville, CA, USA
8/18/2022 6:15am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto Any rider (claimant) may...
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto

Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle, supermini or minicycle ridden in an event in which the claimant has competed. A claimant may enter a claim with the referee any time during the meet but no later than 30 minutes after the race results of the event in which the claimant has competed are posted. There will be no additional time added to this process in the event of a Claim
budlong802 wrote:
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in...
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in the EVENT (not just the specific class) can claim any bike and the claim needs to be made 30 minutes from the final results posting of the last race of the event not the last race in a specific class
TXDirt wrote:
You are mixing event and class. The rule should be more clear. Some classes finish before the last day is over and some families pack up...
You are mixing event and class.

The rule should be more clear.

Some classes finish before the last day is over and some families pack up and leave the ranch a day early.

You can’t make a claim on a bike 30 minutes after Loretta Lynn’s is over on a bike where the class, or last race of that class finished the day before. That bike and family could be long gone by then.

The claim must be made within 30 minutes of the participants “race” or “moto” being over.

The rule book should better clarify this.

I do think they should change the rule that anyone can make a claim. Not just someone in the same class.

2x msrp if in same class

3x msrp if out of class

Let anyone make a claim if they want to. Currently it’s limited to “in the same class” which seems stupid.
Not to argue I'm just curious where you got your interpretation of the rule. the rules are written very clearly and if you read Mike's statement above the rule you will clearly see he says "before the last race of the meat".
1
JustMX
Posts
5276
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
8/18/2022 6:15am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 6:18am
Pretending that I would ever be fast enough to have a bike worth claiming, also pretending that I'm a totally self absorbed, spiteful, cuss (not much...
Pretending that I would ever be fast enough to have a bike worth claiming, also pretending that I'm a totally self absorbed, spiteful, cuss (not much of a stretch), if you claim my bike and I have a moto to go, the engine will be so roached by the end of it that, you will have wasted your money.... Make a rule about that because I can absolutely see it happening.
JustMX wrote:
Beat me to it Randy. It is several hundred feet from the finish line to the impound area at LL. A rider could peg the throttle...
Beat me to it Randy.

It is several hundred feet from the finish line to the impound area at LL.

A rider could peg the throttle after crossing the line and stop or slow roll it down the hill until something lets go. After a 20+ minute moto in the heat it shouldn't take long.

They roll the bike down to impound and leave a smoldering heap of broken engine for the claimer.

The possibility of this needs to be considered and appropriate steps to prevent it or to penalize the claimee if it is obvious that it happens.

I know it would be a gray area. But if a rider holds it wide open and there are witnesses, there should be repercussions, either financial, like bike repairs coming out of the claim money, or suspension of the rider for a predetermined period of time.

If the claim is filed before the final moto, the rider and their guardian should be made aware of this.


Edit:

Actually, why couldn't a running bike being turned over be a requirement?

Whether the damage is intentional or not, the Claimee would have to repair the damage if the bike wasn't claimed.

If a situation where the bike is damaged, however it happens, the claimer should have the choice of withdrawing their claim without penalty, or the repairs should come out of the money the claimee receives for the bike.

Some people are just going to be vindictive, but if they have to still pay $5k or more out of their pocket to either fix the bike for someone else, or themselves maybe it will be enough of a deterrent.

SEEMEFIRST wrote:
Would Star, or anyone build it back to the exact specs?
They could just throw a stock engine back in it.
I was spit balling .

there is so much gray area that it certainly would be hard to anticipate every scenario, especially when dealing with intelligent, motivated people seeking to be vindictive.

I mean, it isn't like Brian Deegan can say he never thought about ghost riding a bike over a big jump

One way to get around that would be that the owner of the bike doesn't get to do the repairs.

they could be estimated by msrp parts plus book rate on labor.

If it happened to be a star or other highly modified bike, the claimer could still see what mods had been done and possibly use them, all the while getting a fresh stock engine, or they could simply withdraw their claim. Still a pretty big gamble by the claimee to damage the bike.

of course there are short cuts for time and hassle.

How about if the bike doesn't run or has specific damage (wheel, frame. forks, etc) the claim fee is adjusted.

an example would be if the motor is locked down, or compression is below a certain amount, the fee is reduced to actual msrp of a new bike, and the claimer still has the option to withdraw without penalty.

There are risks for all parties involved. but at least potential scenarios are considered.

the best one can hope for in one of these deals is for all parties to feel equally shafted, because there is no way they are all going to be happy.

1
2

The Shop

MX455
Posts
225
Joined
4/24/2009
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
8/18/2022 6:17am
I believe all these changes are warranted due to the recent events but was anything discussed about elaborating and/or creating rules to stop external coercion? Opposing parents, sponsors or other 3rd parties from getting involved to circumvent the claiming rule as side from counter claiming?

7. Any rider deemed by the AMA to be complicit in
circumventing the claiming rule (i.e. placing a claim with
the intent of returning the motorcycle to the original owner),
will be subject to a 1-year suspension of competition
privileges.

Maybe change i.e. to e.g.? I think there is a major issue with a brand being able to offer bikes, motors or other incentives to drop or not place a claim. Something additional needs to be done, above and beyond the proposed rule changes, to limit the ability for 3rd parties to intimidate the claimant.
2
budlong802
Posts
71
Joined
4/5/2010
Location
Vacaville, CA, USA
8/18/2022 6:35am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto Any rider (claimant) may...
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto

Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle, supermini or minicycle ridden in an event in which the claimant has competed. A claimant may enter a claim with the referee any time during the meet but no later than 30 minutes after the race results of the event in which the claimant has competed are posted. There will be no additional time added to this process in the event of a Claim
budlong802 wrote:
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in...
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in the EVENT (not just the specific class) can claim any bike and the claim needs to be made 30 minutes from the final results posting of the last race of the event not the last race in a specific class
TXDirt wrote:
You are mixing event and class. The rule should be more clear. Some classes finish before the last day is over and some families pack up...
You are mixing event and class.

The rule should be more clear.

Some classes finish before the last day is over and some families pack up and leave the ranch a day early.

You can’t make a claim on a bike 30 minutes after Loretta Lynn’s is over on a bike where the class, or last race of that class finished the day before. That bike and family could be long gone by then.

The claim must be made within 30 minutes of the participants “race” or “moto” being over.

The rule book should better clarify this.

I do think they should change the rule that anyone can make a claim. Not just someone in the same class.

2x msrp if in same class

3x msrp if out of class

Let anyone make a claim if they want to. Currently it’s limited to “in the same class” which seems stupid.
They're definitely needs to be a clarification between event and class
1
dadofagun
Posts
2024
Joined
3/28/2015
Location
Satan's Hollow, OK, USA
Fantasy
8/18/2022 7:16am
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Seems the only thing missing from the rules is a CLEAR chain of custody of the claiming process. ONLY the AMA official and the Claimant should...
Seems the only thing missing from the rules is a CLEAR chain of custody of the claiming process.

ONLY the AMA official and the Claimant should be involved in the process. Not MX Sports or any other promoter. The promoter should be absolved of any responsibility, notification, or discussion of the claim. No rules enforcement should be applied by anyone other than the AMA official on site.
DonM wrote:
Cotter is also an AMA official...
Who also happens to be quite partial to any, and all things MX Sports related..... And he sure would like to keep the folks at Yamaha happy at his event he's overseeing. Especially considering they (Yamaha), even have one dedicated class on schedule just for them, and them only at that said event. Class gets a ton of exposure for them, too.....
MX Sports will forever do their best to keep them happy, period.
1
3
dingo
Posts
40
Joined
7/28/2019
Location
USA
8/18/2022 7:16am
JustMX wrote:
Beat me to it Randy. It is several hundred feet from the finish line to the impound area at LL. A rider could peg the throttle...
Beat me to it Randy.

It is several hundred feet from the finish line to the impound area at LL.

A rider could peg the throttle after crossing the line and stop or slow roll it down the hill until something lets go. After a 20+ minute moto in the heat it shouldn't take long.

They roll the bike down to impound and leave a smoldering heap of broken engine for the claimer.

The possibility of this needs to be considered and appropriate steps to prevent it or to penalize the claimee if it is obvious that it happens.

I know it would be a gray area. But if a rider holds it wide open and there are witnesses, there should be repercussions, either financial, like bike repairs coming out of the claim money, or suspension of the rider for a predetermined period of time.

If the claim is filed before the final moto, the rider and their guardian should be made aware of this.


Edit:

Actually, why couldn't a running bike being turned over be a requirement?

Whether the damage is intentional or not, the Claimee would have to repair the damage if the bike wasn't claimed.

If a situation where the bike is damaged, however it happens, the claimer should have the choice of withdrawing their claim without penalty, or the repairs should come out of the money the claimee receives for the bike.

Some people are just going to be vindictive, but if they have to still pay $5k or more out of their pocket to either fix the bike for someone else, or themselves maybe it will be enough of a deterrent.

SEEMEFIRST wrote:
Would Star, or anyone build it back to the exact specs?
They could just throw a stock engine back in it.
JustMX wrote:
I was spit balling . there is so much gray area that it certainly would be hard to anticipate every scenario, especially when dealing with intelligent...
I was spit balling .

there is so much gray area that it certainly would be hard to anticipate every scenario, especially when dealing with intelligent, motivated people seeking to be vindictive.

I mean, it isn't like Brian Deegan can say he never thought about ghost riding a bike over a big jump

One way to get around that would be that the owner of the bike doesn't get to do the repairs.

they could be estimated by msrp parts plus book rate on labor.

If it happened to be a star or other highly modified bike, the claimer could still see what mods had been done and possibly use them, all the while getting a fresh stock engine, or they could simply withdraw their claim. Still a pretty big gamble by the claimee to damage the bike.

of course there are short cuts for time and hassle.

How about if the bike doesn't run or has specific damage (wheel, frame. forks, etc) the claim fee is adjusted.

an example would be if the motor is locked down, or compression is below a certain amount, the fee is reduced to actual msrp of a new bike, and the claimer still has the option to withdraw without penalty.

There are risks for all parties involved. but at least potential scenarios are considered.

the best one can hope for in one of these deals is for all parties to feel equally shafted, because there is no way they are all going to be happy.

There is zero chance that doesn’t come with future arguments and disagreements. Too many variables and way too much of a gray area. It needs to be kept black and white.

You can claim a bike anytime within 30 minutes of the rider finishing his last moto. And it would be wise to do it after that last moto so you don’t run the risk of said rider intentionally damaging the bike during his last moto.
8/18/2022 7:29am
SX_336 wrote:
Just curious. What happens if a bike is claimed and the rider has more events to race and decides to crash the bike or seize the...
Just curious. What happens if a bike is claimed and the rider has more events to race and decides to crash the bike or seize the motor up doing a burn out for the fans? For instance, Deegan could have crashed and waded the bike up in the last moto or seized up the engine. Does the team or rider just hand the bike over as is or are they responsible for fixing the bike and then handing it over? Can they say, sorry, we don’t have the money or resources here to fix it?

Crash81 wrote:
Seems like the obvious solution is to allow claiming to be done after the RIDER's final moto, not the CLAIMER's final moto.
Seems simple enough.
DoctorJD
Posts
2977
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Somewhere in..., GA, USA
8/18/2022 7:40am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
I have said it before, I am the biggest proponent of the claiming rule there is. This one was tough, especially since he had motos to...
I have said it before, I am the biggest proponent of the claiming rule there is. This one was tough, especially since he had motos to go on the bike. I appreciate the feedback from everyone except Lostboy. LOL Im just trying to make things better tomorrow than they were today.
So help me understand something: If a rider has one mod bike, and it's claimed before he's run all his motos, does he lose his bike for the rest of his races, or is he allowed to finish on it? I assume it could be impounded in an area where a mechanic can do basic (supervised) maintenance on it?
1
8/18/2022 7:50am
planter wrote:
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three...
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three days to return it.

Here are a couple other proposed changed I'd like to submit for consideration by the AMA:

1. Claims and protests must be handled exclusively by the designated event AMA official. The event promotor, event contractors or representatives, even if they also act as AMA officials eleswhere, cannot be involved in a claim or protest at an event they are promoting, working at or recieving compensation from. No party recieving compensation from the Event Promoters shall be involved in any way with a claim or protest.

2. Any AMA official that has recieved parts or motorcycles that are not readily availible to the public and/or at a discounted prices from full retail or MSRP from a manufacturer, corportation, LLC, or Sole Business Propriety involved in any manner in a claim or protest shall be deemed in conflict of interest and recuse themselves in whole from the claim or protest. In such an event, the designated back-up AMA event Officail shall hadles that claim or protest.

There must be integrety, independance and trust in the process and those were severely lacking at the National.
I don’t know where you live but three days to return a car is not a law in my state. It’s at the discretion of the dealership in Louisiana and 99.9% don’t allow you to have three days after purchase.
2
8/18/2022 8:06am
planter wrote:
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three...
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three days to return it.

Here are a couple other proposed changed I'd like to submit for consideration by the AMA:

1. Claims and protests must be handled exclusively by the designated event AMA official. The event promotor, event contractors or representatives, even if they also act as AMA officials eleswhere, cannot be involved in a claim or protest at an event they are promoting, working at or recieving compensation from. No party recieving compensation from the Event Promoters shall be involved in any way with a claim or protest.

2. Any AMA official that has recieved parts or motorcycles that are not readily availible to the public and/or at a discounted prices from full retail or MSRP from a manufacturer, corportation, LLC, or Sole Business Propriety involved in any manner in a claim or protest shall be deemed in conflict of interest and recuse themselves in whole from the claim or protest. In such an event, the designated back-up AMA event Officail shall hadles that claim or protest.

There must be integrety, independance and trust in the process and those were severely lacking at the National.
WRONG Its a common misconception that there is a 3 day right of rescission on car sales. It varies state by state but if you go to a car dealer and buy a car you don't get 3 days to return it if you change your mind, when you sign the contract and drive it off the lot you are now the owner. We hear that all the time and just laugh and try to educate the uneducated.

"Contrary to popular belief, there is no three-day right to cancel on a car purchase. If a consumer signs a contract to purchase a vehicle, he or she has bought the car and must abide by the contract stipulations or face potential consequences, including legal action"

Here is the MD 3 day right of rescission overview. Most sates are close to this.

The Maryland Door-to-Door Sales Act provides for a 3-day right of rescission for certain contracts that resulted from door-to-door solicitations. Additional exceptions that allow you to cancel within three days include health clubs, credit service centers, self-defense school, and weight loss centers.
8/18/2022 8:22am
Regarding rule 4: I wonder what would happen if the bike blew up during the final moto? Would the claim be void or would the claimer...
Regarding rule 4: I wonder what would happen if the bike blew up during the final moto? Would the claim be void or would the claimer be stuck with it?
In this scenario, they would be stuck with it. I think it might be a disincentive to claim a bike that still has motos to ride but there is no way we can allow people to claim a bike and take someone out of a race.
2
8/18/2022 8:26am
klein8 wrote:
So is the AMA admitting there was tampering by outside influences ?
The AMA is saying that whatever happens between a kid and his sponsors and trainer is their business, not ours.
4
2
8/18/2022 8:29am
ga_pike wrote:
On the anonymity part... how would that be enforced? I could see teams like Star or HRC camping someone out at the admin building to "keep...
On the anonymity part... how would that be enforced? I could see teams like Star or HRC camping someone out at the admin building to "keep an eye on things" during the final motos.

I might make it an option for someone to post a claim (or intent to clai.) In advance and then collect after the final moto. AMA would know about the claim and be able to impound said bike immediately following the final race without anyone else knowing (as long as there are no leaks). This might make the overall process run more smoothly as well.
SlowOldGuy wrote:
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto Any rider (claimant) may...
This is already in the rule. They can claim any time during the meet up to 30 minutes after the final Moto

Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle, supermini or minicycle ridden in an event in which the claimant has competed. A claimant may enter a claim with the referee any time during the meet but no later than 30 minutes after the race results of the event in which the claimant has competed are posted. There will be no additional time added to this process in the event of a Claim
budlong802 wrote:
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in...
I can't believe that no one has commented on this rule. So many people have this whole thing wrong. According to the rule anyone entered in the EVENT (not just the specific class) can claim any bike and the claim needs to be made 30 minutes from the final results posting of the last race of the event not the last race in a specific class
In our rulebook an "event" is defined as one of the contests in a meet. A race is considered a meet and an event is considered a moto based on the definitions in the book.
1
1
tek14
Posts
4929
Joined
1/26/2014
Location
Vantaa, FI
8/18/2022 8:30am
Will Star riders claim other Star riders bikes or how its handed if more than one rider claims bike?
1
8/18/2022 8:34am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 8:42am
planter wrote:
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three...
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three days to return it.

Here are a couple other proposed changed I'd like to submit for consideration by the AMA:

1. Claims and protests must be handled exclusively by the designated event AMA official. The event promotor, event contractors or representatives, even if they also act as AMA officials eleswhere, cannot be involved in a claim or protest at an event they are promoting, working at or recieving compensation from. No party recieving compensation from the Event Promoters shall be involved in any way with a claim or protest.

2. Any AMA official that has recieved parts or motorcycles that are not readily availible to the public and/or at a discounted prices from full retail or MSRP from a manufacturer, corportation, LLC, or Sole Business Propriety involved in any manner in a claim or protest shall be deemed in conflict of interest and recuse themselves in whole from the claim or protest. In such an event, the designated back-up AMA event Officail shall hadles that claim or protest.

There must be integrety, independance and trust in the process and those were severely lacking at the National.
There are no AMA employees at 99% of the amateur races held. The race officials always work for the promoter. The rulebook is clear that the protest is handled by the referee, who always works for the promoter as do all of the race officials.

At the end of the day when you claim someones bike and they have motos left to ride the bike it creates hardship. A rider should not be able to claim a bike, create stress and chaos for the person whos bike is claimed, and then just say never mind.
8/18/2022 8:38am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
I have said it before, I am the biggest proponent of the claiming rule there is. This one was tough, especially since he had motos to...
I have said it before, I am the biggest proponent of the claiming rule there is. This one was tough, especially since he had motos to go on the bike. I appreciate the feedback from everyone except Lostboy. LOL Im just trying to make things better tomorrow than they were today.
DoctorJD wrote:
So help me understand something: If a rider has one mod bike, and it's claimed before he's run all his motos, does he lose his bike...
So help me understand something: If a rider has one mod bike, and it's claimed before he's run all his motos, does he lose his bike for the rest of his races, or is he allowed to finish on it? I assume it could be impounded in an area where a mechanic can do basic (supervised) maintenance on it?
He can finish on the bike and all maint. will be supervised.
2
8/18/2022 8:39am
tek14 wrote:
Will Star riders claim other Star riders bikes or how its handed if more than one rider claims bike?
If they want to face a 1 year suspension.
Magoofan
Posts
10401
Joined
5/4/2021
Location
Shadow Glen (for those who remember), CA, USA
8/18/2022 8:44am
lostboy819 wrote:
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want...
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want but it makes no difference when the people who are suppose to be in charge get it wrong. Blush
Way uncool response man. The guy is trying to improve so a shit show is less likely to happen again.

1
8/18/2022 8:52am
huck wrote:
Because the people showing up with factory bikes aren't breaking the rules... since it's a modified class. The claiming rule is in place to deter factories...
Because the people showing up with factory bikes aren't breaking the rules... since it's a modified class. The claiming rule is in place to deter factories from sending team race bikes to amateur races.
gerg wrote:
Ahh I see.

Thanks Huck I didn't realise that...so that means a full factory bike at these events isn't illegal?
ML512 wrote:
Correct.
I don’t see how this will work. Brendan mentioned taking Haidens bike and making YouTube videos with it, racing it, etc. the exposure post-claim has to be out of the AMA’s hands. They cannot be responsible for the mob. Now, can they try and deliver this bike in a discrete way, sure I’ll give ya that. But you don’t think that word will spread? The same post-claim dealings between team/manufacturer and claimee will still go on unfortunately.
JustMX
Posts
5276
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
8/18/2022 9:04am
dingo wrote:
There is zero chance that doesn’t come with future arguments and disagreements. Too many variables and way too much of a gray area. It needs to...
There is zero chance that doesn’t come with future arguments and disagreements. Too many variables and way too much of a gray area. It needs to be kept black and white.

You can claim a bike anytime within 30 minutes of the rider finishing his last moto. And it would be wise to do it after that last moto so you don’t run the risk of said rider intentionally damaging the bike during his last moto.
The problem with that is that a rider, say a fictitious rider, Bobby grungy, goes out and dominates his first 2 motos and other riders that are considered his main comp have a moto out of the top 5, then they may simply decide to bolt stock or less expensive components on for the final moto.

Unlikely, but possible.

If Mr grungy pulls 30 foot on the rest of the field on the start of the first moto then a competitor in his class should be able to claim that bike after the first moto.
FGR01
Posts
6121
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
Fantasy
8/18/2022 9:09am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 9:11am
Many of the concerns expressed fall under two major areas:

Processes & Procedures - Lay out exactly how a claim is will transpire and the exact steps that need to be taken by each person involved in the process.

Roles & Responsibilities - Define the exact people involved in the process, by position, and state what exact steps of the process each person will perform.

By covering these two main areas, the majority of the issues in this case and the concerns expressed in this thread would be alleviated. Most of this was caused by the absence of this information in the rule as it is currently written.

As for intentionally blowing up the bike in later motos/other class - easy, put a clause in the rule that if the bike is either damaged intentionally or unintentionally, or substantially altered in condition after the time of claim, the claimant can retract his claim. Rule can also state that if AMA determines the damage was caused intentionally, counter to the spirit of the rule, that the offender can face penalties.

As for "outside influence" or "unspoken rule" bullshit, put a "spirit of the rule" statement in. Explain the purpose of the claim rule and the intent/spirit. Then put a clause that says anyone taking any action counter to the spirit of the rule may face possible sanctions from the AMA/promotors. You can get as crazy as you want with this. Understanding this is rather broad and difficult to enforce/police, but that is how many rules are and many times written that way on purpose to allow for latitude.
5
USA
Posts
2594
Joined
9/4/2016
Location
Richmond, TX, USA
Fantasy
8/18/2022 9:16am
klein8 wrote:
So is the AMA admitting there was tampering by outside influences ?
SlowOldGuy wrote:
The AMA is saying that whatever happens between a kid and his sponsors and trainer is their business, not ours.
Is the AMA considering launching an investigation into why the sponsor and trainer got involved in this case? Or is the sentiment "they heard about it because rumors spread fast and they wanted to give their friend advice"?
planter
Posts
54
Joined
10/12/2017
Location
USA
8/18/2022 9:30am
planter wrote:
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three...
As an AMA member, I disagree with the irrevocalble claim change. This is secondary form of intimidation. Even if you purchase a car you have three days to return it.

Here are a couple other proposed changed I'd like to submit for consideration by the AMA:

1. Claims and protests must be handled exclusively by the designated event AMA official. The event promotor, event contractors or representatives, even if they also act as AMA officials eleswhere, cannot be involved in a claim or protest at an event they are promoting, working at or recieving compensation from. No party recieving compensation from the Event Promoters shall be involved in any way with a claim or protest.

2. Any AMA official that has recieved parts or motorcycles that are not readily availible to the public and/or at a discounted prices from full retail or MSRP from a manufacturer, corportation, LLC, or Sole Business Propriety involved in any manner in a claim or protest shall be deemed in conflict of interest and recuse themselves in whole from the claim or protest. In such an event, the designated back-up AMA event Officail shall hadles that claim or protest.

There must be integrety, independance and trust in the process and those were severely lacking at the National.
SlowOldGuy wrote:
There are no AMA employees at 99% of the amateur races held. The race officials always work for the promoter. The rulebook is clear that the...
There are no AMA employees at 99% of the amateur races held. The race officials always work for the promoter. The rulebook is clear that the protest is handled by the referee, who always works for the promoter as do all of the race officials.

At the end of the day when you claim someones bike and they have motos left to ride the bike it creates hardship. A rider should not be able to claim a bike, create stress and chaos for the person whos bike is claimed, and then just say never mind.


Change terms of art to match exsisting terms so long as proposed intent remains uneffected. You understand the intent.

Make applicable at only LLA's, LLR's and LL Nationals. No one is attempting to claim bikes at local races, but AMA already knows that.
8/18/2022 9:32am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 9:33am
lostboy819 wrote:
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want...
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want but it makes no difference when the people who are suppose to be in charge get it wrong. Blush
Magoofan wrote:
Way uncool response man. The guy is trying to improve so a shit show is less likely to happen again.

Nothing will change, its just a feel good resolution to a massive F**k up by the LLs race officials. There is a reason that everyone is still posting and talking about the Deegan bike claim and not the tight points race in the nationals and the return of Ferrandis and Stewart. You can make all the NEW rules you want after you drop the ball but its too late, you really think Star will bring a factory bike to LLs again after this, only if they are stupid.
4
8/18/2022 10:07am
lostboy819 wrote:
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want...
Boo hoo the one time the claiming rule was used in how many years and the ball was dropped, make all the rule changes you want but it makes no difference when the people who are suppose to be in charge get it wrong. Blush
Magoofan wrote:
Way uncool response man. The guy is trying to improve so a shit show is less likely to happen again.

lostboy819 wrote:
Nothing will change, its just a feel good resolution to a massive F**k up by the LLs race officials. There is a reason that everyone is...
Nothing will change, its just a feel good resolution to a massive F**k up by the LLs race officials. There is a reason that everyone is still posting and talking about the Deegan bike claim and not the tight points race in the nationals and the return of Ferrandis and Stewart. You can make all the NEW rules you want after you drop the ball but its too late, you really think Star will bring a factory bike to LLs again after this, only if they are stupid.
Once again I ask you, what specifically, did the officials do to F up? If your expectation is that the AMA or promoter can, or has the duty to stop a riders sponsor, or trainer from talking the kid out of something, you are never going to be happy.
6
1
RCB33
Posts
854
Joined
6/22/2015
Location
Drexel, MO, USA
Fantasy
8/18/2022 10:15am
One thought to keep people from toasting a bike after it's claimed: have a 10% of MSRP nonrefundable deposit on all claims but allow the claim to be rescinded within 30 minutes of the final moto done on the bike. That way if someone does intentionally grenade a bike or crashes out, you can cut your losses. Not sure if that would make much of a difference but it could act as a bit of an insurance policy.
freeh
Posts
793
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
8/18/2022 10:57am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
Once again I ask you, what specifically, did the officials do to F up? If your expectation is that the AMA or promoter can, or has...
Once again I ask you, what specifically, did the officials do to F up? If your expectation is that the AMA or promoter can, or has the duty to stop a riders sponsor, or trainer from talking the kid out of something, you are never going to be happy.
Cotter allowing Brian Deegan into the conversation seems wrong. Also, if Cotter actually said to Brennan, "This is not fair to Haiden", that too is a fuck up. Comments like that are inappropriate and irrelevant.
8
1
8/18/2022 11:24am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
Once again I ask you, what specifically, did the officials do to F up? If your expectation is that the AMA or promoter can, or has...
Once again I ask you, what specifically, did the officials do to F up? If your expectation is that the AMA or promoter can, or has the duty to stop a riders sponsor, or trainer from talking the kid out of something, you are never going to be happy.
freeh wrote:
Cotter allowing Brian Deegan into the conversation seems wrong. Also, if Cotter actually said to Brennan, "This is not fair to Haiden", that too is a...
Cotter allowing Brian Deegan into the conversation seems wrong. Also, if Cotter actually said to Brennan, "This is not fair to Haiden", that too is a fuck up. Comments like that are inappropriate and irrelevant.
What Tim said was it would not be fair to Haiden to take his bike and not let him ride his last schoolboy 2 moto. I would agree, if he said not fair to Haiden to claim his bike that would have been wrong.

The update about the claim being irrevocable comes from 2 places. The first is it takes away from the subsequent drama after the claim. If that were the rule last week, this would have turned out different and we would all be talking about the battle between Sexton and Tomac. The second thing this prevents is someone doing a claim to just be a pain in the ass and F with someone and then being able to say, "My bad, nevermind" with no penalty.

In no way am I trying to say the rule was perfect 2 weeks ago, this situation exposed some flaws which we are trying to address. What I am saying is that under the current rules we all handled our part pretty well.
7
4

Post a reply to: AMA Motocross Commission Claiming Rules Proposed Changes for 2023

The Latest