Stark Varg Reviews

BobPA
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8/8/2022 12:48pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2022 12:58pm
I guess except the fact that filling a tank with gas is a lot quicker than charging. For the record, I have a deposit on one...
I guess except the fact that filling a tank with gas is a lot quicker than charging. For the record, I have a deposit on one. I have 24 acres in a neighborhood (surrounded by 1 acre lots) with epic terrain for a track(about 100ft of elevation change), we currently have a small track on our property but I have room to build an incredible track. I can't do that with gas bikes(my neighbors would lose their minds) but the electric is a game changer. The in town MX tracks that will pop up are going to give electric MX riders endless opportunities. The range and charging technology will just continue to improve as well so I'm not tooo worried about it.
Lots of other issues with tracks in residential areas....The big one is dust. We have a club-owned track that I have ridden at for nearly 25 years, the track has been in existence since the 70s. New neighbors have moved in since then and they have never once complained about the noise. Their only complaint is with dust, and we combat it with a watering system and simply not riding when it is dry. Erosion is another factor, being on a hill with exposed dirt causes quite a bit of material to run downhill, and neighbors do not appreciate a yard full of silt...neither does the EPA. Just some things to think about.

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#434
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8/8/2022 12:56pm
#434 wrote:
Looks like battery pack production is up and running! Curious, if they also manufacture the motor and the power electronics themselves. View this post on Instagram ...
Looks like battery pack production is up and running!

Curious, if they also manufacture the motor and the power electronics themselves.

Zoom wrote:
Stark has an equity stake in the motor company. So technically they manufacture the motor also.
Interesting! Which company is it?
1
ninety3
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8/8/2022 2:15pm
Gungadin wrote:
Old style cylindrical cells, not heaxagons or pouches. Word from England is that full immersion in dielectric fluid battery cooling is being tested on a high...
Old style cylindrical cells, not heaxagons or pouches.

Word from England is that full immersion in dielectric fluid battery cooling is being tested on a high powered E bike because of massive overheating issues for medium to high duty at the motors rated power.
You wouldn't want pouch cells in a dirt bike
Cylindrical seem the best for this application
The more durable the better
1
Dirtysmile56
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Bend, OR, USA
8/8/2022 2:20pm
I guess except the fact that filling a tank with gas is a lot quicker than charging. For the record, I have a deposit on one...
I guess except the fact that filling a tank with gas is a lot quicker than charging. For the record, I have a deposit on one. I have 24 acres in a neighborhood (surrounded by 1 acre lots) with epic terrain for a track(about 100ft of elevation change), we currently have a small track on our property but I have room to build an incredible track. I can't do that with gas bikes(my neighbors would lose their minds) but the electric is a game changer. The in town MX tracks that will pop up are going to give electric MX riders endless opportunities. The range and charging technology will just continue to improve as well so I'm not tooo worried about it.
BobPA wrote:
Lots of other issues with tracks in residential areas....The big one is dust. We have a club-owned track that I have ridden at for nearly 25...
Lots of other issues with tracks in residential areas....The big one is dust. We have a club-owned track that I have ridden at for nearly 25 years, the track has been in existence since the 70s. New neighbors have moved in since then and they have never once complained about the noise. Their only complaint is with dust, and we combat it with a watering system and simply not riding when it is dry. Erosion is another factor, being on a hill with exposed dirt causes quite a bit of material to run downhill, and neighbors do not appreciate a yard full of silt...neither does the EPA. Just some things to think about.

I agree about the dust. We only ride our track here in the high desert a few times a year due to dust. With the benefit of electric bikes making no noise I will absolutely invest the money in a legit watering system. I've never installed one because I don't want to spend $5k+ on pipe and install then have a noise complaint shut me down. As far as erosion goes, I've been having good luck due to the fact that it doesn't rain much here, we have more run off from snow melting than anything else. My track is completely shrouded in Manzanita bush that holds the ground in good and I have built retention basins at the bottom of the hills to capture all the silt run off when it does happen. I just push it back up the hill with my Takeuchi. I still think eliminating noise is the biggest factor in complaints then dust for sure. Neither can be present if your going to avoid\ trouble with neighbors especially here in the PNW where Eco Nazis hide around every tree.
5

The Shop

Gungadin
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8/8/2022 10:03pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2022 10:06pm
#434 wrote:
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on...
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on the market. I can't even find hexagonal battery cells for sale.

Did they? If read and watched a lot of tests and havn't heard of a overheating issue. Where did you find that?

Poor heat conductor? It's great heat conducter, just not as great as Al, but much better than steel or Ti for that matter.
It also highly depends on the alloy they're using. The thermal conductivity of alloys is usually a lot lower than of pure metals. Pure Mg has around 70% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al, but some Al-alloys have only 35% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al. So without knowing the Mg-alloy this is speculation.
Honda, and others, use hex cells.
Magnesium for the battery case has inferior heat properties, corrosion issues and is much more expensive.
It's just another half baked aspect of this 2bike.
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#434
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8/8/2022 10:53pm
#434 wrote:
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on...
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on the market. I can't even find hexagonal battery cells for sale.

Did they? If read and watched a lot of tests and havn't heard of a overheating issue. Where did you find that?

Poor heat conductor? It's great heat conducter, just not as great as Al, but much better than steel or Ti for that matter.
It also highly depends on the alloy they're using. The thermal conductivity of alloys is usually a lot lower than of pure metals. Pure Mg has around 70% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al, but some Al-alloys have only 35% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al. So without knowing the Mg-alloy this is speculation.
Gungadin wrote:
Honda, and others, use hex cells. Magnesium for the battery case has inferior heat properties, corrosion issues and is much more expensive. It's just another half...
Honda, and others, use hex cells.
Magnesium for the battery case has inferior heat properties, corrosion issues and is much more expensive.
It's just another half baked aspect of this 2bike.
How is Mg a cheap solution? It’s the lightest commonly used die casting material. It’s combination of specific strength, thermal conductivity and manufacturing capabilities is perfect for a battery casing.

So you say the Honda/Mugen electric bike, that been shown a few times, never been ridden by anyone, uses battery cells that you can’t buy… interesting. Which „others“ do you mean?
mxracer666
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8/8/2022 11:35pm
Having been around MX bikes from the mid 70's, I tend to agree with Gungadin, on the magnesium corrosion issue. Whenever Mg and moisture come together, the Mg corrodes terribly.Get water inside that battery case (and it will) and it will corrode badly, over time, to the point the bottom will fall out of it. Not in the first year or 5, but it will be an issue down the road. Aluminum will corrode also, but nowhere near as bad.
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#434
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8/9/2022 12:11am
mxracer666 wrote:
Having been around MX bikes from the mid 70's, I tend to agree with Gungadin, on the magnesium corrosion issue. Whenever Mg and moisture come together...
Having been around MX bikes from the mid 70's, I tend to agree with Gungadin, on the magnesium corrosion issue. Whenever Mg and moisture come together, the Mg corrodes terribly.Get water inside that battery case (and it will) and it will corrode badly, over time, to the point the bottom will fall out of it. Not in the first year or 5, but it will be an issue down the road. Aluminum will corrode also, but nowhere near as bad.
That also highly depends on the Al- or Mg-alloy used and the surfaces treatment.
Come on guys, what are talking about here? How many cars and bikes have Mg covers, engine parts, hubs or even wheels without problems.

I‘m sounding like I‘m an employee of Stark… I just can’t stand when guys like Gungadin throw random stuff into this thread, like his hex cells, and claim that the engineers made bad choices and give no further reasons. I get it, some of the stuff is just trolling. If they’ve used an Al casing, he’d say Al is too heavy and they should’ve used Mg…

From what if seen so far, Stark has hired very capable people, that know what they are doing. I think it’s a fine piece of engineering and that the big four will have to play catch-up for a few years.
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Gungadin
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8/9/2022 2:03am
#434 wrote:
How is Mg a cheap solution? It’s the lightest commonly used die casting material. It’s combination of specific strength, thermal conductivity and manufacturing capabilities is perfect...
How is Mg a cheap solution? It’s the lightest commonly used die casting material. It’s combination of specific strength, thermal conductivity and manufacturing capabilities is perfect for a battery casing.

So you say the Honda/Mugen electric bike, that been shown a few times, never been ridden by anyone, uses battery cells that you can’t buy… interesting. Which „others“ do you mean?
Mag is light, expensive and problematic. I have plenty of experience casting, welding and machining the stuff in many alloys.

It is also strange choice of material being inflammable- admittedly usually only when finely divided.

The hex cells I believe are made by Panasonic and used in Honda E cars, I'll get back to you about others.
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Gungadin
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8/9/2022 2:10am
#434 wrote:
That also highly depends on the Al- or Mg-alloy used and the surfaces treatment. Come on guys, what are talking about here? How many cars and...
That also highly depends on the Al- or Mg-alloy used and the surfaces treatment.
Come on guys, what are talking about here? How many cars and bikes have Mg covers, engine parts, hubs or even wheels without problems.

I‘m sounding like I‘m an employee of Stark… I just can’t stand when guys like Gungadin throw random stuff into this thread, like his hex cells, and claim that the engineers made bad choices and give no further reasons. I get it, some of the stuff is just trolling. If they’ve used an Al casing, he’d say Al is too heavy and they should’ve used Mg…

From what if seen so far, Stark has hired very capable people, that know what they are doing. I think it’s a fine piece of engineering and that the big four will have to play catch-up for a few years.
The battery would not be comment worthy if it had an aluminium case/heat sink design.

The problem with the Stark and it's engineering credibility remains that among others there has been no independent testing and examination of the bikes with regard to power, duty cycle and range . All that has happened is 3 or 5 or 5 prototype somethings were ridden for very brief impressions.

Remember, this is for a machine being touted as the best (and most expensive) MX bike in the world.
So pardon me wondering about stuff.

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1
#434
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8/9/2022 2:39am
#434 wrote:
That also highly depends on the Al- or Mg-alloy used and the surfaces treatment. Come on guys, what are talking about here? How many cars and...
That also highly depends on the Al- or Mg-alloy used and the surfaces treatment.
Come on guys, what are talking about here? How many cars and bikes have Mg covers, engine parts, hubs or even wheels without problems.

I‘m sounding like I‘m an employee of Stark… I just can’t stand when guys like Gungadin throw random stuff into this thread, like his hex cells, and claim that the engineers made bad choices and give no further reasons. I get it, some of the stuff is just trolling. If they’ve used an Al casing, he’d say Al is too heavy and they should’ve used Mg…

From what if seen so far, Stark has hired very capable people, that know what they are doing. I think it’s a fine piece of engineering and that the big four will have to play catch-up for a few years.
Gungadin wrote:
The battery would not be comment worthy if it had an aluminium case/heat sink design. The problem with the Stark and it's engineering credibility remains that...
The battery would not be comment worthy if it had an aluminium case/heat sink design.

The problem with the Stark and it's engineering credibility remains that among others there has been no independent testing and examination of the bikes with regard to power, duty cycle and range . All that has happened is 3 or 5 or 5 prototype somethings were ridden for very brief impressions.

Remember, this is for a machine being touted as the best (and most expensive) MX bike in the world.
So pardon me wondering about stuff.

You just claim that. Please give us an explanation on why you think the won‘t be able to get rid of the heat. Have you done the math?
Also what about my questions: which other brands use hex cells? Does the Mugen/Honda really have hex cells? Why are hex cells so much better than cylindrical cell, when cylindrical cell only waste 9% of the available space?

Yeah, they had only prototypes and are a few months behind schedule. However, they even provided all the 450s from the other brands for back to back testing. Of course there are doubt if the range they claim will be there when they will be delivered. But that’s with all electric vehicles or gas mileage claims.
2
#434
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8/9/2022 2:41am
#434 wrote:
How is Mg a cheap solution? It’s the lightest commonly used die casting material. It’s combination of specific strength, thermal conductivity and manufacturing capabilities is perfect...
How is Mg a cheap solution? It’s the lightest commonly used die casting material. It’s combination of specific strength, thermal conductivity and manufacturing capabilities is perfect for a battery casing.

So you say the Honda/Mugen electric bike, that been shown a few times, never been ridden by anyone, uses battery cells that you can’t buy… interesting. Which „others“ do you mean?
Gungadin wrote:
Mag is light, expensive and problematic. I have plenty of experience casting, welding and machining the stuff in many alloys. It is also strange choice of...
Mag is light, expensive and problematic. I have plenty of experience casting, welding and machining the stuff in many alloys.

It is also strange choice of material being inflammable- admittedly usually only when finely divided.

The hex cells I believe are made by Panasonic and used in Honda E cars, I'll get back to you about others.
Sorry, didn’t see you second post.
Would be cool, if you could supply a link to the hex cells. I can’t find them, but would like to see what they‘re up to.
Gungadin
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8/9/2022 3:25am
#434 wrote:
Sorry, didn’t see you second post. Would be cool, if you could supply a link to the hex cells. I can’t find them, but would like...
Sorry, didn’t see you second post.
Would be cool, if you could supply a link to the hex cells. I can’t find them, but would like to see what they‘re up to.
I'll try and find the reference. I read it in an English print publication regarding a land speed car project where they were, iirc, using the cells to make their own battery. The deep, genuinely high tech and high performance EV engineering is coming from the UK's Motorsport Valley.
1
8/10/2022 10:45am

Stark photo. Cylindrical.
2
8/10/2022 12:08pm
ksithumper wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/10/563481/s1200_FB_IMG_1660153329703.jpg[/img] Stark photo. Cylindrical.

Stark photo. Cylindrical.
Stark is using 21700 cells, 200 per case half totaling 400 cells.
ninety3
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8/10/2022 1:25pm
#434 wrote:
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on...
Sure, hex cells can be pack tighter than cylindrical ones, but are there any availible? Cylindrical cells are easy to mass produce and readily available on the market. I can't even find hexagonal battery cells for sale.

Did they? If read and watched a lot of tests and havn't heard of a overheating issue. Where did you find that?

Poor heat conductor? It's great heat conducter, just not as great as Al, but much better than steel or Ti for that matter.
It also highly depends on the alloy they're using. The thermal conductivity of alloys is usually a lot lower than of pure metals. Pure Mg has around 70% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al, but some Al-alloys have only 35% of the thermal conductivity of pure Al. So without knowing the Mg-alloy this is speculation.
Gungadin wrote:
Honda, and others, use hex cells. Magnesium for the battery case has inferior heat properties, corrosion issues and is much more expensive. It's just another half...
Honda, and others, use hex cells.
Magnesium for the battery case has inferior heat properties, corrosion issues and is much more expensive.
It's just another half baked aspect of this 2bike.
Where did you hear or see anything about a hexagonal battery, let alone made by Panasonic ?
early
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8/10/2022 2:11pm
ksithumper wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/10/563481/s1200_FB_IMG_1660153329703.jpg[/img] Stark photo. Cylindrical.

Stark photo. Cylindrical.
Stark is using 21700 cells, 200 per case half totaling 400 cells.
Do you know the votage/amp capacity of the pack?
#434
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8/10/2022 3:59pm
ksithumper wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/10/563481/s1200_FB_IMG_1660153329703.jpg[/img] Stark photo. Cylindrical.

Stark photo. Cylindrical.
Stark is using 21700 cells, 200 per case half totaling 400 cells.
early wrote:
Do you know the votage/amp capacity of the pack?
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere?

They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V or 185 V, respectively.
Teslas battery packs run somewhere between 350 and 400 V, depending on the model and battery size.
8/10/2022 6:17pm
Stark is using 21700 cells, 200 per case half totaling 400 cells.
early wrote:
Do you know the votage/amp capacity of the pack?
#434 wrote:
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere? They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V...
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere?

They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V or 185 V, respectively.
Teslas battery packs run somewhere between 350 and 400 V, depending on the model and battery size.
The screen showed 405V during the media rides...

1
#434
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8/10/2022 10:35pm
early wrote:
Do you know the votage/amp capacity of the pack?
#434 wrote:
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere? They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V...
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere?

They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V or 185 V, respectively.
Teslas battery packs run somewhere between 350 and 400 V, depending on the model and battery size.
The screen showed 405V during the media rides... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/10/563541/s1200_Screen_2.jpg[/img]
The screen showed 405V during the media rides...

Really cool, thanks! So they’re going big and plug a 100 cells together and use a motor than runs at around 320 V. Pretty similar to the Model S powertrain! Makes for an efficient package with thin cables.

So at full throttle they draw about 15 kW from each of the 4 separate battery packs, which would mean that each cell runs at a max current of 37.5 A. That’s right around the max continuous discharge rate of a lot of the high power 21700 cells.

Kinda funny how simple it is to run the numbers with these electric powertrains. From your snapshot we could figure out the basic numbers of the battery, of the motor with the ratio of the primary drive as well as that they use IGBTs.
2
1
8/11/2022 1:23am
#434 wrote:
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere? They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V...
Yeah, was that mentioned anywhere?

They could split it to packs of 100, 80 or 50 cells which would result in about 370 V, 296 V or 185 V, respectively.
Teslas battery packs run somewhere between 350 and 400 V, depending on the model and battery size.
The screen showed 405V during the media rides... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/10/563541/s1200_Screen_2.jpg[/img]
The screen showed 405V during the media rides...

#434 wrote:
Really cool, thanks! So they’re going big and plug a 100 cells together and use a motor than runs at around 320 V. Pretty similar to...
Really cool, thanks! So they’re going big and plug a 100 cells together and use a motor than runs at around 320 V. Pretty similar to the Model S powertrain! Makes for an efficient package with thin cables.

So at full throttle they draw about 15 kW from each of the 4 separate battery packs, which would mean that each cell runs at a max current of 37.5 A. That’s right around the max continuous discharge rate of a lot of the high power 21700 cells.

Kinda funny how simple it is to run the numbers with these electric powertrains. From your snapshot we could figure out the basic numbers of the battery, of the motor with the ratio of the primary drive as well as that they use IGBTs.
Stark are claiming 360 nominal voltage for the motor...


1
#434
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8/11/2022 11:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2022 4:01am
Edit: Wrong info from my side. Rimac has nothing to do with Stark!

Kinda Non-Moto, but if you want to see what the Rimac guys can do, who did a lot of the engineering on the Varg, watch this video. Here's F1 Champ Nico Rosberg driving his new 2000 HP Rimac Nevera. Also interesting when they are talking about other hypercars and the projects Rimac was part of. I'm impressed by Mate Rimac.
https://youtu.be/aN64wMLyCuY
fs
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8/12/2022 3:23am
#434 wrote:
Edit: Wrong info from my side. Rimac has nothing to do with Stark! Kinda Non-Moto, but if you want to see what the Rimac guys can...
Edit: Wrong info from my side. Rimac has nothing to do with Stark!

Kinda Non-Moto, but if you want to see what the Rimac guys can do, who did a lot of the engineering on the Varg, watch this video. Here's F1 Champ Nico Rosberg driving his new 2000 HP Rimac Nevera. Also interesting when they are talking about other hypercars and the projects Rimac was part of. I'm impressed by Mate Rimac.
https://youtu.be/aN64wMLyCuY
Rimac did none of the engineering on the Varg.
#434
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8/12/2022 4:00am Edited Date/Time 8/12/2022 6:04am
#434 wrote:
Edit: Wrong info from my side. Rimac has nothing to do with Stark! Kinda Non-Moto, but if you want to see what the Rimac guys can...
Edit: Wrong info from my side. Rimac has nothing to do with Stark!

Kinda Non-Moto, but if you want to see what the Rimac guys can do, who did a lot of the engineering on the Varg, watch this video. Here's F1 Champ Nico Rosberg driving his new 2000 HP Rimac Nevera. Also interesting when they are talking about other hypercars and the projects Rimac was part of. I'm impressed by Mate Rimac.
https://youtu.be/aN64wMLyCuY
fs wrote:
Rimac did none of the engineering on the Varg.
Oh s..t, I just assumed with Stark getting help from Croatia that it was Rimac.. sorry, my bad!
ando
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8/12/2022 12:57pm
crt32 wrote:
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds...
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
Do you think petroleum fuels flow under natural pressure from the well to the bowser?

How much energy do you reckon it takes to produce the aluminium in your bike? Total energy cost is about 200MJ per kg.

BTW steel is about 8-10 times less than aluminium.
ando
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8/12/2022 1:08pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Great thread, props to the smart guys weighing in giving insight. For Alta owners or others with E moto experience, is the lack of a clutch...
Great thread, props to the smart guys weighing in giving insight.

For Alta owners or others with E moto experience, is the lack of a clutch a potential problem? The clutch is a way to meter power, always covering it, and also a safety item when things go south and whiskey throttle happens. Can’t imagine not having a clutch, transmission who cares.
You’ve gotten used to using a clutch on a ICE dirt bike because you don’t have a choice - it’s a necessity.

2
ando
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8/12/2022 1:11pm
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at...
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at others who bring up PRACTICAL questions about new technologies based on personal knowledge, education and experience.

I make a living as a heavy equipment operator of VERY expensive machines, and my skepticism about new and immature technologies is based on self-preservation. More complicated than an e-dirtbike, but the principles are the same.

Ever hear that old warning "don't buy anything V1.0"?

Interesting and hilarious comments, and some high-level expert input so far. Some PRACTICAL questions that need to be answered before I will join the herd:

1) "Zero maintenance".
The Varg uses KYB suspension, just like Yamahas, Betas, and a few others. Did KYB invent a new type of magical suspension that doesn't need oil, fork seals, springs, O-rings, air valves etc? How about the chassis? Swingarm bearings machined from unicorn bone that doesn't need grease? Steering head bearings made from self-lubricating unobtanium ? How about the wheel bearings? Tyres don't wear or flatten? Spokes don't go loose? Rims don't bend from 3-story landings? Chains don't stretch? Sprockets don't wear? Guess them handlebars don't bend when you ragdoll over a big triple, eh? Grips made from soft Teflon? All that because the motor doesn't burn premix?
Just because you don't have to do top ends like on a 125cc 2T, doesn't mean it's "zero maintenance", ya dunce. Laughing Laughing

2) Range.
Probably the #1 concern, as with......Teslas, ePorsches, eBMWs etc. In cities (or on MX tracks) not an issue, an electricity source is probably close by. Baja? Haha.
This topic has been beaten to death and will continue to be, so I'm not wasting bandwidth on it.
"Storage" technology ie. BATTERIES lags far behind generating technology, ask any expert.

3) Cost.
Geez......I thought it might be $12K. From what people have posted, closer to 15K? Woohoo Dirtbiking started a death spiral when 4T took over (ask anybody who's been in the industry for that long) because of the COST. Now it's jumping from 10K to 15K? Good luck wi' dat!
Ask DB, MXA, anybody you want.........the sport has been sustained for the last 20 years by the geezer riders who can afford to spend that much on toys. I have 14 dirtbikes from 1978-2020, I spend lotsa $$ on them........but I refuse to pay 15K for one. Wanna bet how many other geezers feel the same?
If ya haven't figured it out, the dirtbike industry is 100% dependent on bike sales (+aftermarket, gear, fuel, parts etc), having 100K more iphone babies WATCHING won't sustain it.

4) "Save the planet".
Sure.........visualize (auralize?) 500 or 800 generators at Glen Helen every Saturday, all day.........but at least the bikes are silent Laughing
Minerals and resources.........someone posted an explanation of volume of dirt moved to produce one ton of XYZ ore. My father and brother are/were engineers in the gold mining industry, and the numbers are RIDICULOUS. Literally 1000s of tons of rock dug out of the earth to produce ONE OUNCE of gold. The precious metals used to make these batteries, not much difference. Not to mention, there's not NEARLY as much of it as gold or silver or coal.....not enough to go around, considering there will be 10 BILLION EVs on the road by 2030 Laughing OK then.
Dead batteries, what happens to them? It's NASTY hazardous waste, you can't just throw it out with the vegetable peels and beer cans. DEAFENING silence on that topic, NOBODY wants to discuss it. Why?

5) Riding area conflicts.
MX tracks? No worries. They put peewees and 85s on the track with Tomac and da boyz at Glen Helen, I'm sure it will work itself out Laughing
New tracks? If you're in an area where tracks are shut down because of noise, the property value is such that 50 or 200 open acres to build a track, you're talking $$MILLIONS. It's similar to airports in that regard. Don't plan on it Laughing
Trails and MTB parks? Lots of conflicts between hikers and equestrians vs. eMTBers already. That will only escalate as dumbasses reckon "hey this thing is silent, I can ride anywhere". Result? BANNED.

6) Startup company.
ATK, Cannondale, Buell, Husaberg, Cooper, Yankee, Venti, Titan, Roehr...........and Alta. Look 'em up, 'nuff said.

7) Gen Z
The iphone fecesbook generation, look all around you.Laughing Laughing Their children will have one square eye in the middle of the forehead and flippers with a single pointy finger. Evolution, baby! Watching instead of partaking in anything physical.
Witness the comments about "can't wait for the 2T and 4T sound to be gone so I can talk on my phone" Laughing Laughing while WATCHING others ride, not riding themselves, ie. didn't buy a bike of any kind. Gimme sum LIKES bro..........

8) Electrical infrastructure and supply.
"Chargers at MX tracks"
Ya sure, stand by, we'll lay a 12-inch cable 130 miles to the new track in Death Valley that gets 96 visitors a year.
Glen Helen? Perris? More feasible, but don't forget, the Great Police State of Kaliforniya is having rolling blackouts like in Zimbabwe and Congo for lack of generating capacity and obsolete crumbling infrastructure. I'm sure installing chargers at MX tracks is a top priority, CALPOWER will be there next week with bulldozers and shit Laughing

9) SBD.
"Silent but deadly".
I sat at sidewalk cafes in a certain European city known for its wines and cheese last summer, watching idiots with obviously NO bike experience zip down sidewalks and through traffic at 30 mph, having a grand old time. I almost got taken out by one such dipshit, he almost hit me full-on but I jumped and he only hit my arm. I wanted to beat his small brain in, but couldn't catch him.
It's the new IN thing.....free communal e-scooters, they're all over almost every US city. (Most are f**ked up by vandals and bums, but hey, it's only tax money, right?) Friend of mine was killed on that ridiculously powerful one that came out about 2 years ago, he crashed without a helmet and smashed his noggin.
Remember ATVs? those 3-wheeler things that sucked kids' legs under the wheels? They were BANNED after a few deaths. Wait till some pimple farmer kills a geezer hiker on a trail in a city park, or runs over someone's 3-year old.............


Like with EVs and self-driving vehicles, there are many insurmountable obstacles. In cities and densely populated areas, they're an excellent idea and 100% practical. Outside cities or in rural areas? Useless. How about in Africa, or Russia? Laughing Laughing

As a silent backyard racer? Hundreds mate. As long as you don't have 30 of your pals over on Sundays and have races and drink beer and play Metallica loud, of course.

I'm hoping the noisy iphone hype will give way to practical reasonable attitudes at some point. EVs can't and won't replace ICE any time soon, no matter what the TV says. But I fear ebikes will split the already small dirtbike crowd into even more factions, easily isolated and stomped out by government and green nazis.

Luckily I won't be around, or interested, if/when all dirtbiking is 100% silent....ie, extinct.

Those who say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.
1
8/12/2022 1:37pm
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at...
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at others who bring up PRACTICAL questions about new technologies based on personal knowledge, education and experience.

I make a living as a heavy equipment operator of VERY expensive machines, and my skepticism about new and immature technologies is based on self-preservation. More complicated than an e-dirtbike, but the principles are the same.

Ever hear that old warning "don't buy anything V1.0"?

Interesting and hilarious comments, and some high-level expert input so far. Some PRACTICAL questions that need to be answered before I will join the herd:

1) "Zero maintenance".
The Varg uses KYB suspension, just like Yamahas, Betas, and a few others. Did KYB invent a new type of magical suspension that doesn't need oil, fork seals, springs, O-rings, air valves etc? How about the chassis? Swingarm bearings machined from unicorn bone that doesn't need grease? Steering head bearings made from self-lubricating unobtanium ? How about the wheel bearings? Tyres don't wear or flatten? Spokes don't go loose? Rims don't bend from 3-story landings? Chains don't stretch? Sprockets don't wear? Guess them handlebars don't bend when you ragdoll over a big triple, eh? Grips made from soft Teflon? All that because the motor doesn't burn premix?
Just because you don't have to do top ends like on a 125cc 2T, doesn't mean it's "zero maintenance", ya dunce. Laughing Laughing

2) Range.
Probably the #1 concern, as with......Teslas, ePorsches, eBMWs etc. In cities (or on MX tracks) not an issue, an electricity source is probably close by. Baja? Haha.
This topic has been beaten to death and will continue to be, so I'm not wasting bandwidth on it.
"Storage" technology ie. BATTERIES lags far behind generating technology, ask any expert.

3) Cost.
Geez......I thought it might be $12K. From what people have posted, closer to 15K? Woohoo Dirtbiking started a death spiral when 4T took over (ask anybody who's been in the industry for that long) because of the COST. Now it's jumping from 10K to 15K? Good luck wi' dat!
Ask DB, MXA, anybody you want.........the sport has been sustained for the last 20 years by the geezer riders who can afford to spend that much on toys. I have 14 dirtbikes from 1978-2020, I spend lotsa $$ on them........but I refuse to pay 15K for one. Wanna bet how many other geezers feel the same?
If ya haven't figured it out, the dirtbike industry is 100% dependent on bike sales (+aftermarket, gear, fuel, parts etc), having 100K more iphone babies WATCHING won't sustain it.

4) "Save the planet".
Sure.........visualize (auralize?) 500 or 800 generators at Glen Helen every Saturday, all day.........but at least the bikes are silent Laughing
Minerals and resources.........someone posted an explanation of volume of dirt moved to produce one ton of XYZ ore. My father and brother are/were engineers in the gold mining industry, and the numbers are RIDICULOUS. Literally 1000s of tons of rock dug out of the earth to produce ONE OUNCE of gold. The precious metals used to make these batteries, not much difference. Not to mention, there's not NEARLY as much of it as gold or silver or coal.....not enough to go around, considering there will be 10 BILLION EVs on the road by 2030 Laughing OK then.
Dead batteries, what happens to them? It's NASTY hazardous waste, you can't just throw it out with the vegetable peels and beer cans. DEAFENING silence on that topic, NOBODY wants to discuss it. Why?

5) Riding area conflicts.
MX tracks? No worries. They put peewees and 85s on the track with Tomac and da boyz at Glen Helen, I'm sure it will work itself out Laughing
New tracks? If you're in an area where tracks are shut down because of noise, the property value is such that 50 or 200 open acres to build a track, you're talking $$MILLIONS. It's similar to airports in that regard. Don't plan on it Laughing
Trails and MTB parks? Lots of conflicts between hikers and equestrians vs. eMTBers already. That will only escalate as dumbasses reckon "hey this thing is silent, I can ride anywhere". Result? BANNED.

6) Startup company.
ATK, Cannondale, Buell, Husaberg, Cooper, Yankee, Venti, Titan, Roehr...........and Alta. Look 'em up, 'nuff said.

7) Gen Z
The iphone fecesbook generation, look all around you.Laughing Laughing Their children will have one square eye in the middle of the forehead and flippers with a single pointy finger. Evolution, baby! Watching instead of partaking in anything physical.
Witness the comments about "can't wait for the 2T and 4T sound to be gone so I can talk on my phone" Laughing Laughing while WATCHING others ride, not riding themselves, ie. didn't buy a bike of any kind. Gimme sum LIKES bro..........

8) Electrical infrastructure and supply.
"Chargers at MX tracks"
Ya sure, stand by, we'll lay a 12-inch cable 130 miles to the new track in Death Valley that gets 96 visitors a year.
Glen Helen? Perris? More feasible, but don't forget, the Great Police State of Kaliforniya is having rolling blackouts like in Zimbabwe and Congo for lack of generating capacity and obsolete crumbling infrastructure. I'm sure installing chargers at MX tracks is a top priority, CALPOWER will be there next week with bulldozers and shit Laughing

9) SBD.
"Silent but deadly".
I sat at sidewalk cafes in a certain European city known for its wines and cheese last summer, watching idiots with obviously NO bike experience zip down sidewalks and through traffic at 30 mph, having a grand old time. I almost got taken out by one such dipshit, he almost hit me full-on but I jumped and he only hit my arm. I wanted to beat his small brain in, but couldn't catch him.
It's the new IN thing.....free communal e-scooters, they're all over almost every US city. (Most are f**ked up by vandals and bums, but hey, it's only tax money, right?) Friend of mine was killed on that ridiculously powerful one that came out about 2 years ago, he crashed without a helmet and smashed his noggin.
Remember ATVs? those 3-wheeler things that sucked kids' legs under the wheels? They were BANNED after a few deaths. Wait till some pimple farmer kills a geezer hiker on a trail in a city park, or runs over someone's 3-year old.............


Like with EVs and self-driving vehicles, there are many insurmountable obstacles. In cities and densely populated areas, they're an excellent idea and 100% practical. Outside cities or in rural areas? Useless. How about in Africa, or Russia? Laughing Laughing

As a silent backyard racer? Hundreds mate. As long as you don't have 30 of your pals over on Sundays and have races and drink beer and play Metallica loud, of course.

I'm hoping the noisy iphone hype will give way to practical reasonable attitudes at some point. EVs can't and won't replace ICE any time soon, no matter what the TV says. But I fear ebikes will split the already small dirtbike crowd into even more factions, easily isolated and stomped out by government and green nazis.

Luckily I won't be around, or interested, if/when all dirtbiking is 100% silent....ie, extinct.

ando wrote:
Those who say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.
while some of his post might be diminished...your response goes to show either 1. you know he's right about a lot of things and you're scared to answer or 2. see #1.
ando
Posts
4483
Joined
8/20/2009
Location
Perth, AU
8/12/2022 1:49pm
while some of his post might be diminished...your response goes to show either 1. you know he's right about a lot of things and you're scared...
while some of his post might be diminished...your response goes to show either 1. you know he's right about a lot of things and you're scared to answer or 2. see #1.
Not sure how you drew that conclusion.

The world doesn’t move forward at the hands of people who sit back and rattle off a long list of reasons why something can’t be done.
3
ando
Posts
4483
Joined
8/20/2009
Location
Perth, AU
8/12/2022 2:30pm
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at...
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at others who bring up PRACTICAL questions about new technologies based on personal knowledge, education and experience.

I make a living as a heavy equipment operator of VERY expensive machines, and my skepticism about new and immature technologies is based on self-preservation. More complicated than an e-dirtbike, but the principles are the same.

Ever hear that old warning "don't buy anything V1.0"?

Interesting and hilarious comments, and some high-level expert input so far. Some PRACTICAL questions that need to be answered before I will join the herd:

1) "Zero maintenance".
The Varg uses KYB suspension, just like Yamahas, Betas, and a few others. Did KYB invent a new type of magical suspension that doesn't need oil, fork seals, springs, O-rings, air valves etc? How about the chassis? Swingarm bearings machined from unicorn bone that doesn't need grease? Steering head bearings made from self-lubricating unobtanium ? How about the wheel bearings? Tyres don't wear or flatten? Spokes don't go loose? Rims don't bend from 3-story landings? Chains don't stretch? Sprockets don't wear? Guess them handlebars don't bend when you ragdoll over a big triple, eh? Grips made from soft Teflon? All that because the motor doesn't burn premix?
Just because you don't have to do top ends like on a 125cc 2T, doesn't mean it's "zero maintenance", ya dunce. Laughing Laughing

2) Range.
Probably the #1 concern, as with......Teslas, ePorsches, eBMWs etc. In cities (or on MX tracks) not an issue, an electricity source is probably close by. Baja? Haha.
This topic has been beaten to death and will continue to be, so I'm not wasting bandwidth on it.
"Storage" technology ie. BATTERIES lags far behind generating technology, ask any expert.

3) Cost.
Geez......I thought it might be $12K. From what people have posted, closer to 15K? Woohoo Dirtbiking started a death spiral when 4T took over (ask anybody who's been in the industry for that long) because of the COST. Now it's jumping from 10K to 15K? Good luck wi' dat!
Ask DB, MXA, anybody you want.........the sport has been sustained for the last 20 years by the geezer riders who can afford to spend that much on toys. I have 14 dirtbikes from 1978-2020, I spend lotsa $$ on them........but I refuse to pay 15K for one. Wanna bet how many other geezers feel the same?
If ya haven't figured it out, the dirtbike industry is 100% dependent on bike sales (+aftermarket, gear, fuel, parts etc), having 100K more iphone babies WATCHING won't sustain it.

4) "Save the planet".
Sure.........visualize (auralize?) 500 or 800 generators at Glen Helen every Saturday, all day.........but at least the bikes are silent Laughing
Minerals and resources.........someone posted an explanation of volume of dirt moved to produce one ton of XYZ ore. My father and brother are/were engineers in the gold mining industry, and the numbers are RIDICULOUS. Literally 1000s of tons of rock dug out of the earth to produce ONE OUNCE of gold. The precious metals used to make these batteries, not much difference. Not to mention, there's not NEARLY as much of it as gold or silver or coal.....not enough to go around, considering there will be 10 BILLION EVs on the road by 2030 Laughing OK then.
Dead batteries, what happens to them? It's NASTY hazardous waste, you can't just throw it out with the vegetable peels and beer cans. DEAFENING silence on that topic, NOBODY wants to discuss it. Why?

5) Riding area conflicts.
MX tracks? No worries. They put peewees and 85s on the track with Tomac and da boyz at Glen Helen, I'm sure it will work itself out Laughing
New tracks? If you're in an area where tracks are shut down because of noise, the property value is such that 50 or 200 open acres to build a track, you're talking $$MILLIONS. It's similar to airports in that regard. Don't plan on it Laughing
Trails and MTB parks? Lots of conflicts between hikers and equestrians vs. eMTBers already. That will only escalate as dumbasses reckon "hey this thing is silent, I can ride anywhere". Result? BANNED.

6) Startup company.
ATK, Cannondale, Buell, Husaberg, Cooper, Yankee, Venti, Titan, Roehr...........and Alta. Look 'em up, 'nuff said.

7) Gen Z
The iphone fecesbook generation, look all around you.Laughing Laughing Their children will have one square eye in the middle of the forehead and flippers with a single pointy finger. Evolution, baby! Watching instead of partaking in anything physical.
Witness the comments about "can't wait for the 2T and 4T sound to be gone so I can talk on my phone" Laughing Laughing while WATCHING others ride, not riding themselves, ie. didn't buy a bike of any kind. Gimme sum LIKES bro..........

8) Electrical infrastructure and supply.
"Chargers at MX tracks"
Ya sure, stand by, we'll lay a 12-inch cable 130 miles to the new track in Death Valley that gets 96 visitors a year.
Glen Helen? Perris? More feasible, but don't forget, the Great Police State of Kaliforniya is having rolling blackouts like in Zimbabwe and Congo for lack of generating capacity and obsolete crumbling infrastructure. I'm sure installing chargers at MX tracks is a top priority, CALPOWER will be there next week with bulldozers and shit Laughing

9) SBD.
"Silent but deadly".
I sat at sidewalk cafes in a certain European city known for its wines and cheese last summer, watching idiots with obviously NO bike experience zip down sidewalks and through traffic at 30 mph, having a grand old time. I almost got taken out by one such dipshit, he almost hit me full-on but I jumped and he only hit my arm. I wanted to beat his small brain in, but couldn't catch him.
It's the new IN thing.....free communal e-scooters, they're all over almost every US city. (Most are f**ked up by vandals and bums, but hey, it's only tax money, right?) Friend of mine was killed on that ridiculously powerful one that came out about 2 years ago, he crashed without a helmet and smashed his noggin.
Remember ATVs? those 3-wheeler things that sucked kids' legs under the wheels? They were BANNED after a few deaths. Wait till some pimple farmer kills a geezer hiker on a trail in a city park, or runs over someone's 3-year old.............


Like with EVs and self-driving vehicles, there are many insurmountable obstacles. In cities and densely populated areas, they're an excellent idea and 100% practical. Outside cities or in rural areas? Useless. How about in Africa, or Russia? Laughing Laughing

As a silent backyard racer? Hundreds mate. As long as you don't have 30 of your pals over on Sundays and have races and drink beer and play Metallica loud, of course.

I'm hoping the noisy iphone hype will give way to practical reasonable attitudes at some point. EVs can't and won't replace ICE any time soon, no matter what the TV says. But I fear ebikes will split the already small dirtbike crowd into even more factions, easily isolated and stomped out by government and green nazis.

Luckily I won't be around, or interested, if/when all dirtbiking is 100% silent....ie, extinct.

ando wrote:
Those who say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.
while some of his post might be diminished...your response goes to show either 1. you know he's right about a lot of things and you're scared...
while some of his post might be diminished...your response goes to show either 1. you know he's right about a lot of things and you're scared to answer or 2. see #1.
Ok I’ll add my comments in order of his points:

1. Most people would have logically assumed the “no maintenance” claim applied to the engine, and many would know that in reality there’s always something even if minor.

2. Range. Yes a genuine concern. Appears to be adequate for at least one dirtbike discipline- short course racing like MX/SX.

3. Cost. So he’d buy one at $12K but $15K and then make a point about the cost of bikes? That’s only a 25% difference. Maybe critical to some but it won’t be a barrier for many. Oh and I’m still waiting for the end of this 25 year long death spiral we’re in since four strokes came back to prominence.

4. Bit going on here. I’d bet all those generators burn gas more efficiently than if it was in a bike. If anyone is operating a gold mine that requires moving thousands of tonnes of dirt to produce one ounce of gold they’re either complete fools or not in business for very long. Recycling battery waste is a genuine concern.

5. Getting harder to follow. Can’t make much sense of most of this except to say that the people who paid millions for their acreage probably have enough $$$ to fork out for an electric dirtbike (and most likely have friends in the same boat).

6. Yes a lot of startups fail but not all. Everything you touch is produced by a company that was once a startup. Not sure of the point here.

7. Yes, every generation complains that the next is going to be worse off because technology has made their lives easier. That argument has been going on for hundreds of years. Also I agree with the original comment about noise at races (or lack thereof). I don’t think it will be the death knell of MX/SX. Plenty of atmosphere at ball sports stadiums but the play itself is silent.

8. Charging infrastructure will come. Like it’s doing for passenger vehicles.

9. Ok now we are really going off the rails. I honestly can’t make a connection between anything here and an electric motocross bike.

4

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