KTM Frame "Stretch" / Replacement --- Tell me more please, KTM Newbie Here

Rider 5280
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Edited Date/Time 5/19/2022 7:01am
I am passively looking for KTM 350SX-F and 450SX-F bikes.

I am committed to *trying* the orange Kool-Aid later this year, but have been hearing a lot about the frames "stretching" lately (biased by a pro mechanic I talked to who brought it up + listening to Keefer podcasts --- which I love, BTW).

So, if I were to buy a ***USED*** 2019+ KTM350/450SX-F, what's the max number of hours I should entertain given the apparent frame-stretching nature of these bikes?

Also, what's a real-world number of hours I can expect to replace the frame, in general?

I'm a Vet B/C rider, so under my use/stress it seems I'd be able to ride a frame a looooong time (100, 150, 200+ hours?), but I have no idea.

I'd love to hear hear thoughts from all you guys "in the know!"

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FGR01
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Fantasy
5/11/2022 8:40am
Frame stretch sounds so bad. Let's call it Adaptive Geometry! Grinning

For anyone who is going to opine about 3-4 yr old KTM steel frames stretching.. also tell us what you think about guys with their 25 yr old steel frame 2-stroke builds! Whistling
7
5/11/2022 8:47am Edited Date/Time 5/11/2022 2:06pm
I used to worry about my 2016s stretching as both have over 200 hours on the frames, but like FGR said there’s too many guys resurrecting these old two strokes for me to really worry about it anymore.
3
stone881
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5/11/2022 8:51am
I wouldn't worry so much about the 19+ as they gusseted the weak area. Does the stretch affect that weak point on prior model years, I guess we really don't know, but it's worth keeping a very close eye on.
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Luxon MX
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Fantasy
5/11/2022 9:31am
Talk about frames "stretching" and actual measurements of it are likely two very different things...
6

The Shop

Rider 5280
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5/11/2022 10:35am Edited Date/Time 5/11/2022 11:08am
Luxon MX wrote:
Talk about frames "stretching" and actual measurements of it are likely two very different things...
Yep, striving to use commonly used terms here to draw in real-world experience share-outs.

Please weigh-in with your thoughts on handling changes vs. time & recommended frame-replacement intervals.

As I understand it, too, you're a KTM guy --- so any frame-related advice you have in assessing a used KTM is greatly appreciated (it seems I may have to buy used given I can't find new currently).
Luxon MX
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5/11/2022 11:16am
Rider 5280 wrote:
Yep, striving to use commonly used terms here to draw in real-world experience share-outs. Please weigh-in with your thoughts on handling changes vs. time & recommended...
Yep, striving to use commonly used terms here to draw in real-world experience share-outs.

Please weigh-in with your thoughts on handling changes vs. time & recommended frame-replacement intervals.

As I understand it, too, you're a KTM guy --- so any frame-related advice you have in assessing a used KTM is greatly appreciated (it seems I may have to buy used given I can't find new currently).
A frame stretching implies that it has failed via yielding (permanent plastic deformation, not elastic). That would be a bad thing.

I don't doubt that there are some small high stress spots on the frame that locally yield and stay that way, but it would happen rather quickly (first few rides) and wouldn't amount to much of anything as far as noticeable "stretch". So we can pretty much ignore that as it's always going to be there and almost not worth mentioning (same goes for an aluminum frame).

But a frame "stretching" over time means it continuously is yielding a little more every time it is ridden. I really doubt that is happening and that would rather quickly lead to a big failure. Various people say it is, though, which makes me wonder how they know. Are they measuring it? How and where are they measuring?

There are A LOT of other variables that can change to throw off what they might be measuring. I've heard of an axle to axle measurement from one person. It's easy to mistake a change there for the frame stretching when in reality it's just inconsistency in measuring (different shock settings, different fork heights, chain stretch (not really stretch, it's actually wear!) causing the wheel to have been moved back, bearing slop, bushing wear, etc. They must have measured that when the bike was fairly new and compared that months (years?) later and determined the frame stretched. But how much also changed during that time that may actually be the cause of the different measurements?

It also seems to be a steel frame only thing for some reason. But aluminum can yield too, so it's odd that you don't hear about frame stretch on an aluminum framed bike...

So in other words, I don't think it's really happening to any appreciable extent. The only ones who would really know would be KTM (not the race team, the manufacturer) as I doubt anyone else has properly measured it. It would take a fairly serious effort to measure any difference (raw frame on a CMM or similar), not just a tape measure.

Anyway, when looking over a used bike, be sure to look closely at the frame in the high stress areas - head tube welds, etc. Cracked paint/powdercoat is a bad sign and indicates a failure.
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Rider 5280
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5/11/2022 11:19am Edited Date/Time 5/11/2022 11:21am
Much appreciated Billy!

When Keefer and others refer to KTM frame breaking in and then later losing some of their desired handling characteristics/specialness, what do you attribute this to?
sandman768
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5/11/2022 12:32pm
Just don’t buy a bike from a former pro Sx rider and you will be fine…buy a bike from a slow vet rider, probably get a bunch of cool orange bling too👍
9
Luxon MX
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5/11/2022 12:33pm
Rider 5280 wrote:
Much appreciated Billy! When Keefer and others refer to KTM frame breaking in and then later losing some of their desired handling characteristics/specialness, what do you...
Much appreciated Billy!

When Keefer and others refer to KTM frame breaking in and then later losing some of their desired handling characteristics/specialness, what do you attribute this to?
Everything breaks in to some extent, most of it is undetectable, though. The big things are bushings/seals that will make a difference. The various bolt in parts (motor is a big one) will "settle" into their preferred position after a few big hits. Spokes/nipples may seat in better. Stuff like that. The frame material itself isn't breaking in.

A fresh bike is what many would think of a good bike. But just because it's broken in doesn't mean it got worse; I'd argue that it got better and more consistent. Of course as it goes from "broken in" to "worn out" it's going to get worse.
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aees
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5/14/2022 1:27pm
I typically transfer over my triple clamp with handlebar, wheels and suspension + gearing (14/51) and ECU when i switch bike every year. A new SXF 450 is not raceable until 6-7h if you ask me. It feels short and nervous and very unforgiving. It is better with all parts i carry over, but där from ok.

The first few hours is so bad, to the extent i want to hand the bike back. Specially riding my previous bike (have dual of everything).

So something is settling 😄
2
Wiscomx
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5/16/2022 4:42pm
I would think it takes a few hours for everything to break in, engine, suspension, I’m sure that the chassis probably does the same too. For the average guy I wouldn’t worry about it
1
alien
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5/17/2022 2:43pm
In the '90s I raced pro SX on 250 Hondas and the frames did stretch to the point it had an affect on handling. When the bike was brand new I would measure from the swingarm pivot bolt to the front axle and make a note in the owners manual. I would remeasure every 5 hours and after 20 hours it had stretched almost 1/4 " and had lost that tight cornering feel. I could not afford to replace the frame so before the outdoor season started it was cheaper to sell that bike and start over with a new one and just swap the ported cylinder to the new bike. I now have a steal framed KTM and have not noticed any stretch but I have not raced SX in years so the frames today are stronger or SX is the only type of racing brutal enough to put that kind of load on a frame.
5
stone881
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5/17/2022 6:26pm
alien wrote:
In the '90s I raced pro SX on 250 Hondas and the frames did stretch to the point it had an affect on handling. When the...
In the '90s I raced pro SX on 250 Hondas and the frames did stretch to the point it had an affect on handling. When the bike was brand new I would measure from the swingarm pivot bolt to the front axle and make a note in the owners manual. I would remeasure every 5 hours and after 20 hours it had stretched almost 1/4 " and had lost that tight cornering feel. I could not afford to replace the frame so before the outdoor season started it was cheaper to sell that bike and start over with a new one and just swap the ported cylinder to the new bike. I now have a steal framed KTM and have not noticed any stretch but I have not raced SX in years so the frames today are stronger or SX is the only type of racing brutal enough to put that kind of load on a frame.
Curious, are you taking measurements on the Katoom like you did w the Honda's?
5/18/2022 10:51am
alien wrote:
In the '90s I raced pro SX on 250 Hondas and the frames did stretch to the point it had an affect on handling. When the...
In the '90s I raced pro SX on 250 Hondas and the frames did stretch to the point it had an affect on handling. When the bike was brand new I would measure from the swingarm pivot bolt to the front axle and make a note in the owners manual. I would remeasure every 5 hours and after 20 hours it had stretched almost 1/4 " and had lost that tight cornering feel. I could not afford to replace the frame so before the outdoor season started it was cheaper to sell that bike and start over with a new one and just swap the ported cylinder to the new bike. I now have a steal framed KTM and have not noticed any stretch but I have not raced SX in years so the frames today are stronger or SX is the only type of racing brutal enough to put that kind of load on a frame.
I'm pretty sure your ktm is using better cromoly than what the Japanese were trying to pass off as cromoly (hi tensile steel) back in the 80's and 90's.
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GD350
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5/19/2022 5:36am
I'm in the same boat, worried about the frames, but for a different reason, while we're here. How's this look?



sandman768
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5/19/2022 7:00am
GD350 wrote:
I'm in the same boat, worried about the frames, but for a different reason, while we're here. How's this look? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551159/s1200_IMG_20211120_173238.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551158/s1200_IMG_20211120_173228.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551160/s1200_IMG_20211120_173402.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551157/s1200_IMG_20211120_173356.jpg[/img]
I'm in the same boat, worried about the frames, but for a different reason, while we're here. How's this look?



A little late now but a skid plate prevents most of those damages… l would loosen all engine mounts & see if you can pull out the forward bolt & lower bolt, if they pull out ok, safe to say the frame is not bent or twisted to the point of stressing the mounting points. Monitor the frame in that area for cracks. I have had sections of frame rails replaced from that type of damage, usually worse. The older steel frame Asian bikes had tubes that were easily available, the KtM frames are hexagon shape so, maybe a section of another used damaged KtM frame? Or if you are super OCD just buy a new frame…. If you install a skid plate at least you won’t have to look at it anymore….
1
GD350
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5/19/2022 8:35am
GD350 wrote:
I'm in the same boat, worried about the frames, but for a different reason, while we're here. How's this look? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551159/s1200_IMG_20211120_173238.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551158/s1200_IMG_20211120_173228.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551160/s1200_IMG_20211120_173402.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/551157/s1200_IMG_20211120_173356.jpg[/img]
I'm in the same boat, worried about the frames, but for a different reason, while we're here. How's this look?



sandman768 wrote:
A little late now but a skid plate prevents most of those damages… l would loosen all engine mounts & see if you can pull out...
A little late now but a skid plate prevents most of those damages… l would loosen all engine mounts & see if you can pull out the forward bolt & lower bolt, if they pull out ok, safe to say the frame is not bent or twisted to the point of stressing the mounting points. Monitor the frame in that area for cracks. I have had sections of frame rails replaced from that type of damage, usually worse. The older steel frame Asian bikes had tubes that were easily available, the KtM frames are hexagon shape so, maybe a section of another used damaged KtM frame? Or if you are super OCD just buy a new frame…. If you install a skid plate at least you won’t have to look at it anymore….
I did the latter lol. Definitely didn't get any sleep the night I noticed it. It was from a rock, frame seems un harmed other than the dent

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