Manufacturer Bike Control

TalinH112
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TalinH112
I have an honest question, if racing and more importantly winning lead to bike sales, why would a manufacturer limit the amount of changes an elite rider would make to their motorcycle? Especially if the changes made with partners of theirs show the capabilities of their motorcycle with certain aftermarket parts developed for their brand? Yes this question specifically ties to Eli and Kawi but isn’t limited to them as Yamaha was the same if not worse when the factory ran the team.
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LouisianaMotocross 3/23/2022 12:03pm
3/23/2022 12:03pm
TalinH112 wrote:
I have an honest question, if racing and more importantly winning lead to bike sales, why would a manufacturer limit the amount of changes an elite...
I have an honest question, if racing and more importantly winning lead to bike sales, why would a manufacturer limit the amount of changes an elite rider would make to their motorcycle? Especially if the changes made with partners of theirs show the capabilities of their motorcycle with certain aftermarket parts developed for their brand? Yes this question specifically ties to Eli and Kawi but isn’t limited to them as Yamaha was the same if not worse when the factory ran the team.
Because if ELI runs a cable clutch, for example, on the kx450, people would question the hydro clutch.
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TalinH112
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TalinH112 3/23/2022 12:13pm
3/23/2022 12:13pm
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
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LouisianaMotocross 3/23/2022 12:52pm
3/23/2022 12:52pm
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Oh I am with you. I just think that's why they don't do it.
motoarmageddon 3/23/2022 1:01pm
3/23/2022 1:01pm
what is so funny about this eli clutch deal is that the average rider loves hydraulic clutches and they think its an upgrade. When KTM had it and the japanese didnt MXA acted like it was so superior
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 3/23/2022 1:26pm
3/23/2022 1:26pm
motoarmageddon wrote:
what is so funny about this eli clutch deal is that the average rider loves hydraulic clutches and they think its an upgrade. When KTM had...
what is so funny about this eli clutch deal is that the average rider loves hydraulic clutches and they think its an upgrade. When KTM had it and the japanese didnt MXA acted like it was so superior
Newbies maybe... lol.... but average riders hate hydro clutches for the same reason as the pros- lack of feel, and a lot more parts to go bad....
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 3/23/2022 1:31pm
3/23/2022 1:31pm
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable clutch.
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Sawfish
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Sawfish 3/23/2022 1:37pm
3/23/2022 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/23/2022 1:40pm
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable...
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable clutch.
Interesting. Any more info? Is this a works bike type rule?

Who would have thought that caveman pulley technology would be an issue to implement over hydraulic.
Bruce372
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Bruce372 3/23/2022 1:48pm
3/23/2022 1:48pm
You have to go all the way back until 2014 for the last time a cable clutch won a 450 championship.... and now they suck? Ok then.
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RaceFace58
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RaceFace58 3/23/2022 2:02pm
3/23/2022 2:02pm
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Which aftermarket company is it that is offering hydraulic to cable conversions? i see what you were saying but the hydraulic clutch is there as a sales tool. How many people hate their hydraulic clutch now simply based on what Eli said? How many people are questioning if they want a Kawi or Yamaha now? People were scared of having no kick starter and I’m sure that cost sales. The same people now point and laugh if you’re bike has a Kickstarter on it.
TalinH112
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TalinH112 3/23/2022 2:15pm
3/23/2022 2:15pm
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
RaceFace58 wrote:
Which aftermarket company is it that is offering hydraulic to cable conversions? i see what you were saying but the hydraulic clutch is there as a...
Which aftermarket company is it that is offering hydraulic to cable conversions? i see what you were saying but the hydraulic clutch is there as a sales tool. How many people hate their hydraulic clutch now simply based on what Eli said? How many people are questioning if they want a Kawi or Yamaha now? People were scared of having no kick starter and I’m sure that cost sales. The same people now point and laugh if you’re bike has a Kickstarter on it.
I’m not sure if anyone does I’m just saying if I was a manufacturer and race results directly impacted sales I would want my bike to be the Honda Civic of motorcycles so I could bolt on whatever it took to win. I’m just wondering why corporate manufacturers are not more flexible on bike setup. 🤷🏻 If they believe in their production product why not race that effer stock haha
Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 3/24/2022 5:24am
3/24/2022 5:24am
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable...
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable clutch.
I don't remember the exact details about why it wasn't possible or where I heard it. I listen to a lot of podcasts. It's a production rule that you must use stock OEM crankcases which is why they couldn't modify it.
Falcon
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Falcon 3/24/2022 9:29am
3/24/2022 9:29am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2022 9:30am
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
I'll put it in the plainest terms I can:

There is Kawasaki. THE Kawasaki. KHI, that is. They are a multi-billion dollar company, which makes trains, ships and motorcycles. Most of their executives are barely aware that a KX is green.

Then, there is Kawasaki Motors Corp., USA. They are the guys who sell KXs in America. They want you to buy a KX. They hire a race team (it may be a division of their own company, or even simply a department within their company also - either way, KMC calls the shots). They want to win, but they also want you to think Eli did it on a stock bike.

Finally, there is the race team, which is the only party that truly understands that you know the race bike is not what you can buy off the showroom. They aren't drinking the koolaid, don't expect you to drink it, and frankly wonder why it's a problem if Eli runs his bike in a different manner than KMC suggests.

But, rule #1 is, KMC pays the payroll and calls the shots.

But, says the race team, we could win so much more if you'd only let us...

But, see rule #1

OK, says the race team, we'll just do it without telling you and...

See rule #1. Enjoy your retirement, Mike Fisher.*

But, you guys want to win right?

See rule #1.



Got it now? The guys in charge don't truly know (or care) that they don't know everything. They just want it done the way they say. Their hands are also being tied by KHI.


*I don't know if this is what happened. Just a wild, wild "what if" on my part.
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LungButter
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LungButter 3/24/2022 9:56am
3/24/2022 9:56am
gt80rider wrote:
Newbies maybe... lol.... but average riders hate hydro clutches for the same reason as the pros- lack of feel, and a lot more parts to go...
Newbies maybe... lol.... but average riders hate hydro clutches for the same reason as the pros- lack of feel, and a lot more parts to go bad....
Face. Palm.
TalinH112
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TalinH112 3/24/2022 10:44am
3/24/2022 10:44am
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Falcon wrote:
I'll put it in the plainest terms I can: There is Kawasaki. THE Kawasaki. KHI, that is. They are a multi-billion dollar company, which makes trains...
I'll put it in the plainest terms I can:

There is Kawasaki. THE Kawasaki. KHI, that is. They are a multi-billion dollar company, which makes trains, ships and motorcycles. Most of their executives are barely aware that a KX is green.

Then, there is Kawasaki Motors Corp., USA. They are the guys who sell KXs in America. They want you to buy a KX. They hire a race team (it may be a division of their own company, or even simply a department within their company also - either way, KMC calls the shots). They want to win, but they also want you to think Eli did it on a stock bike.

Finally, there is the race team, which is the only party that truly understands that you know the race bike is not what you can buy off the showroom. They aren't drinking the koolaid, don't expect you to drink it, and frankly wonder why it's a problem if Eli runs his bike in a different manner than KMC suggests.

But, rule #1 is, KMC pays the payroll and calls the shots.

But, says the race team, we could win so much more if you'd only let us...

But, see rule #1

OK, says the race team, we'll just do it without telling you and...

See rule #1. Enjoy your retirement, Mike Fisher.*

But, you guys want to win right?

See rule #1.



Got it now? The guys in charge don't truly know (or care) that they don't know everything. They just want it done the way they say. Their hands are also being tied by KHI.


*I don't know if this is what happened. Just a wild, wild "what if" on my part.
Man, that was pretty good! I understand completely now, thank you very much. Dumbass KHI 😂
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Falcon
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Falcon 3/24/2022 1:04pm
3/24/2022 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2022 2:40pm
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Falcon wrote:
I'll put it in the plainest terms I can: There is Kawasaki. THE Kawasaki. KHI, that is. They are a multi-billion dollar company, which makes trains...
I'll put it in the plainest terms I can:

There is Kawasaki. THE Kawasaki. KHI, that is. They are a multi-billion dollar company, which makes trains, ships and motorcycles. Most of their executives are barely aware that a KX is green.

Then, there is Kawasaki Motors Corp., USA. They are the guys who sell KXs in America. They want you to buy a KX. They hire a race team (it may be a division of their own company, or even simply a department within their company also - either way, KMC calls the shots). They want to win, but they also want you to think Eli did it on a stock bike.

Finally, there is the race team, which is the only party that truly understands that you know the race bike is not what you can buy off the showroom. They aren't drinking the koolaid, don't expect you to drink it, and frankly wonder why it's a problem if Eli runs his bike in a different manner than KMC suggests.

But, rule #1 is, KMC pays the payroll and calls the shots.

But, says the race team, we could win so much more if you'd only let us...

But, see rule #1

OK, says the race team, we'll just do it without telling you and...

See rule #1. Enjoy your retirement, Mike Fisher.*

But, you guys want to win right?

See rule #1.



Got it now? The guys in charge don't truly know (or care) that they don't know everything. They just want it done the way they say. Their hands are also being tied by KHI.


*I don't know if this is what happened. Just a wild, wild "what if" on my part.
TalinH112 wrote:
Man, that was pretty good! I understand completely now, thank you very much. Dumbass KHI 😂
Basically, it's all corporate politics. And the people who are the ultimate decision makers are the ones least qualified to make race-winning decisions.

EDIT: It also depends on how much leeway the manufacturers give their teams. Some have more freedom to do what they want than others.
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TalinH112
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TalinH112 3/24/2022 1:10pm
3/24/2022 1:10pm
This is also slightly confusing due to the exotic pieces you see in MXGP and the Japanese Nationals.
chump6784
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chump6784 3/24/2022 1:12pm
3/24/2022 1:12pm
On a recent pulp mx podcast, I think either 495 or 496, Steve interviewed John Tomac and asked him about this. It's a good listen and worth checking out but basically he said the Japanese people are a proud people who don't like to admit they are wrong, when they decide on going a certain direction with something they will stick with it
Leeham
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Leeham 3/24/2022 1:54pm
3/24/2022 1:54pm
Disliked my KTM 250 SX Hydro. I liked my KTM 200 Hydro. I hated my Honda 250 Cable. Absolutely love my YZ250F cable. Clutch designs play an enormous factor in feel. I haven't rode the bike, but the feel of the 22.5 250SXF FE feels pretty good. Depends on the bike. For me, it doesn't get much better than my Yamaha cable.

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kb228
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kb228 3/24/2022 2:33pm
3/24/2022 2:33pm
TalinH112 wrote:
I have an honest question, if racing and more importantly winning lead to bike sales, why would a manufacturer limit the amount of changes an elite...
I have an honest question, if racing and more importantly winning lead to bike sales, why would a manufacturer limit the amount of changes an elite rider would make to their motorcycle? Especially if the changes made with partners of theirs show the capabilities of their motorcycle with certain aftermarket parts developed for their brand? Yes this question specifically ties to Eli and Kawi but isn’t limited to them as Yamaha was the same if not worse when the factory ran the team.
LouisianaMotocross wrote:
Because if ELI runs a cable clutch, for example, on the kx450, people would question the hydro clutch.
I doubt it. Look how many companies offer options on their stuff. If you offer options it eliminates that risk.
RaceFace58
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RaceFace58 3/24/2022 6:32pm
3/24/2022 6:32pm
chump6784 wrote:
On a recent pulp mx podcast, I think either 495 or 496, Steve interviewed John Tomac and asked him about this. It's a good listen and...
On a recent pulp mx podcast, I think either 495 or 496, Steve interviewed John Tomac and asked him about this. It's a good listen and worth checking out but basically he said the Japanese people are a proud people who don't like to admit they are wrong, when they decide on going a certain direction with something they will stick with it
The part where he said the Japanese engineers put a throttle sensor on Eli’s bike and when he analyzed the data? That was hilarious. Oh no! How is possible?? Wide open everywhere wide open!!!
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NLMB150
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NLMB150 3/25/2022 6:56am
3/25/2022 6:56am
TalinH112 wrote:
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m...
But if Kawi is partnered with a aftermarket cable clutch company there is that option available and it is proven to work well, see what I’m saying? People buy new bikes and change all kinds of stuff immediately why not showcase those changes on the biggest stage possible?
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable...
The cases on the latest gen kawasaki 450 don't allow the use of a cable clutch without illegal modifications. That's why Eli didn't run a cable clutch.
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
I don't remember the exact details about why it wasn't possible or where I heard it. I listen to a lot of podcasts. It's a production...
I don't remember the exact details about why it wasn't possible or where I heard it. I listen to a lot of podcasts. It's a production rule that you must use stock OEM crankcases which is why they couldn't modify it.
Look at jett and hunter Lawrence. They have a hydro clutch and a stock crf250 has a cable. Same with the last gen crf450s. Factory teams have hydros. Even the factory euro yami 450 guys got hydros. They use stock cases but machine them out and do some clutch mods. Anyone can do it if ya know the right person. Cable to hydro conversions are possible
lumpy790
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lumpy790 3/25/2022 7:22am
3/25/2022 7:22am
Hydro clutch is self adjusting so no need to adjust like you have to do on a cable to keep up with how hot the clutch gets

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