Front brake loses pressure

mikeglg
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14
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3/2/2022
Location
AU
Edited Date/Time 4/16/2022 8:30am
I have a problem with my front brake (yz250f 2017). When i brake into big braking bumps or brake right after landing from a big jump, front brake loses pressure and i need to pull it more. To be more precise, the enganging point of the brake change, the lever gets closer to the bars in order to stop than when i brake into smooth ground. I changed fluids,pads and installed a master cylinder rebuild kit, the brake became stronger overall , but the problem remains. Disk doesnt looked warped. I think it may be a line thing.
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Sandusky26
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Eastern, NC, USA
3/8/2022 12:43am
mikeglg wrote:
I have a problem with my front brake (yz250f 2017). When i brake into big braking bumps or brake right after landing from a big jump...
I have a problem with my front brake (yz250f 2017). When i brake into big braking bumps or brake right after landing from a big jump, front brake loses pressure and i need to pull it more. To be more precise, the enganging point of the brake change, the lever gets closer to the bars in order to stop than when i brake into smooth ground. I changed fluids,pads and installed a master cylinder rebuild kit, the brake became stronger overall , but the problem remains. Disk doesnt looked warped. I think it may be a line thing.
I’m having the exact problem on my 20 RMZ. Around 15 minutes into my moto, the brakes will go soft like there is air in the line. In the first couple laps of my moto I will loose free play, and once I have been riding for 15 minutes I will come into a turn and the brake will have tons of freeplay.

I also have a little brake fluid seep from the master cylinder cover after a day of riding. I ordered a SS front brake line and a new diaphragm for the master cylinder. I’m positive I’m not over filling the master cylinder.

I am hoping my problem is caused by a worn front brake line.
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zippytech
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Bethesda, OH, USA
3/8/2022 6:24am
Is the rotor bent?
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blockhead17
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Tokyo, JP
3/8/2022 7:21am
Sounds like air in there, just bleed the brakes and see if it makes a difference.
YouTube has tutorials if you don’t know the correct way to do it..
Sandusky26
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3/8/2022 7:31am
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin.

The lever is fine until 2 laps into my moto, the lever looses a little free play. The free play stays the same until around 15 minutes. I'll come into a turn and the lever gains a lot of play and goes soft.
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The Shop

3/8/2022 7:40am
Sandusky26 wrote:
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin. The...
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin.

The lever is fine until 2 laps into my moto, the lever looses a little free play. The free play stays the same until around 15 minutes. I'll come into a turn and the lever gains a lot of play and goes soft.
I bet the line has a small leak letting air in.
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Sandusky26
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3/8/2022 7:47am
Sandusky26 wrote:
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin. The...
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin.

The lever is fine until 2 laps into my moto, the lever looses a little free play. The free play stays the same until around 15 minutes. I'll come into a turn and the lever gains a lot of play and goes soft.
I bet the line has a small leak letting air in.
Thanks for the reply. I'm glad the op started this thread. Ive been working on the front brake for the last couple of months trying to figure it out.
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mikeglg
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AU
3/8/2022 7:48am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 7:51am
In a brief check i did rotor didnt seem bend. I will check it again.
I have bleed the brakes many times, changed fluids, zip-tie overnight.

One time i zip tied the lever fully pulled in, i noticed that it leaked fluid from the master cylinders banjo bolt.

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rbm33
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Duncan, OK, USA
Fantasy
3/8/2022 8:51am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 8:54am
The Rotor isnt bent or it would act up all the time. it could be a week hose that expands with pressure but most likely it is not quality fluid and or its not bled properly.

Motul 600 is a high quality fluid that works very well. I was 45 years old before i learned that not all brake fluids are equal.

As far as bleeding there are all kinds of tricks out there that you can look up. i would start with making sure there are no high points in your brake line that allows tiny air pockets to hide. you may have to remove the rotor and let it hang over night. i do that occasionally and tap on the line with a paint stick trying to free any possible air bubbles...
mxbrian15
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Orlando, FL, USA
3/8/2022 9:17am
This happened to me. Ended up being a super small hole in the line that you couldn’t see unless I held pressure on it for a long period of time.

You mentioned you saw that the line leaked from the banjo bolt when you held the lever in overnight. That should not happen.

Replace the line banjo bolts and washers. Should be good to go after that.
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dcg141
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3/8/2022 9:24am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 9:26am
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it. Rebuild kits can be pricy and don't always work.
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Moto_Geek
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Golden, CO, USA
3/8/2022 9:56am
Sandusky26 wrote:
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin. The...
I've bleed the brakes every ride for the past 10 hours. Pulled the pistons out and cleaned them up. Fresh pads with a new pin.

The lever is fine until 2 laps into my moto, the lever looses a little free play. The free play stays the same until around 15 minutes. I'll come into a turn and the lever gains a lot of play and goes soft.
If you boil the brake fluid, it will do this as well. Look into higher temp brake fluid..
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mikeglg
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AU
3/8/2022 10:01am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 10:04am
dcg141 wrote:
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it...
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it. Rebuild kits can be pricy and don't always work.
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
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dcg141
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3/8/2022 12:50pm Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 12:54pm
mikeglg wrote:
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the...
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
I think the MC is bad then. That it got better but not fixed is a telltale sign.
lumpy790
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York, SC, USA
3/8/2022 12:56pm
With the bike on a stand turn the handlebars all the way to the left so the master cylinder is at its highest point then holding the wheel compress the caliper with your knee. This pushes any air in the system up into the master cylinder tank. Its a simple fix for mushy front brakes
3/8/2022 2:30pm
These work good. This may also help tell if there is a slow leak due to pressure being constant in the system and pushing the oil out of hole whilst on the stand at home?
Front brake compressor
I recommend these highly from tech167_3d check it on insta




forensic
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Madison, WI, USA
3/8/2022 2:42pm
dcg141 wrote:
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it...
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it. Rebuild kits can be pricy and don't always work.
mikeglg wrote:
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the...
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing the lever does it immediately return to functioning normally or does the condition last even with several squeezes of the lever?
mooch
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Fantasy
3/8/2022 2:55pm
lumpy790 wrote:
With the bike on a stand turn the handlebars all the way to the left so the master cylinder is at its highest point then holding...
With the bike on a stand turn the handlebars all the way to the left so the master cylinder is at its highest point then holding the wheel compress the caliper with your knee. This pushes any air in the system up into the master cylinder tank. Its a simple fix for mushy front brakes
Not quite following the part where you say... "then holding the wheel compress the caliper with your knee".

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JoeWV
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Hurricane, WV, USA
3/8/2022 4:52pm
I had a similar issue on a ktm. Changed the rubber gasket, cap and screws on the MC and it fixed it. The gasket had a tiny little hole in it.
lumpy790
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3/8/2022 6:45pm Edited Date/Time 3/8/2022 6:48pm
lumpy790 wrote:
With the bike on a stand turn the handlebars all the way to the left so the master cylinder is at its highest point then holding...
With the bike on a stand turn the handlebars all the way to the left so the master cylinder is at its highest point then holding the wheel compress the caliper with your knee. This pushes any air in the system up into the master cylinder tank. Its a simple fix for mushy front brakes
mooch wrote:
Not quite following the part where you say... "then holding the wheel compress the caliper with your knee".

Standing next to the bike next to the fork grab the left and right side of the F wheel tire to sturdy you and use your knee to push hard on the side of the caliper. By doing this it will push the caliper pistons in pushing fluid and any bubbles up to the master cylinder.
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Moto520
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Schaumburg, IL, USA
3/8/2022 7:01pm
Could be a brake line with a section that bubbles out. I would throw a stainless steel line on from Core Moto (please don’t get pink or purple or something like that…..get clear or black like a full grown man). The lines work better than stock and last longer
1
rhummel628
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Sparks, NV, USA
3/8/2022 8:52pm
Similar thing happened to my Honda. Ended up replacing brake line with a ss line, replacing front disc, rebuilding master then bleeding with a mighty vac for what seemed like hours. The problem was still there. I decided to rebuild my caliper. I noticed the piston seal was slightly torn and catching on the inside of the bore. After I replaced the seals and cleaned the bores and pistons, my problem finally went away.
3/8/2022 9:24pm
I've had the same thing once. For me it was just air that I couldn't get out for nothing. Over and over for hours, I could not get it. It might be your problem but to me it sounds like yours is getting air at the bolt.
But just to let you know, bleeding by pumping it up and cracking the bleeder will not always work on a front brake. Especially if you have emptied or cracked open the line. You have to use a bleeder pump you can get at the autoparts store and push the fluid from the bottom up and out of the master cylinder with the cap off. One that sucks from the new fluid bottle and pushes the fluid out. It is messy but that is what it takes.
If you don't have a suction bleeder tool you can do this but it takes a while, maybe a few hours. Take off you wheel or take your caliper off the rotor and let it hang straight down. Get the kink out of the line. With the pads in the caliper, hit your front brake and squeeze the pads together. Take off the your master cylinder cap and make sure it is full of fluid. Then simply crack your bleeder at the caliper and let it drip. It will drip rather slow if at all but just leave it like that, it will eventually do something. You will end up leaving it like that for a long time, maybe hours but check on it about every 10 minutes and make sure the master cylinder doesn't run out of fluid and suck air down the line. It will eventually push the air bubble out at the top at the master cylinder.
The reason you squeezed the pads together is in case you missed the master cylinder running dry. If it does, you can fill the master cylinder half way and push the pads out with a screwdriver (with the bleeder closed) and it will push the fluid up and out of the master cylinder and the air along with it.
It sounds like a lot but it really isn't that bad. I had to change a line once and like it sounds with you, I had hours of messing with it before I finally done this. Last resort and last great frustrated effort but it worked for me.
KurtJ99
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USA
3/8/2022 9:44pm
It has to be air if the problem doesn’t show until a few laps in. A bad master cylinder or leak would show up immediately. Every year at Mammoth I would lose my rear brake after a few laps. Had to remove the rear slave cylinder, hold in the air and bleed it. On bike didn’t work. I’ve had better luck with fronts but perhaps you need to do the same. Or use a syringe and push oil up from slave to maybe push the bubble out.
mikeglg
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AU
3/8/2022 11:22pm
dcg141 wrote:
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it...
Classic signs of the master cylinder getting weak. If your sure you have it bleed correctly I'm pretty sure that's your issue. Replace or rebuild it. Rebuild kits can be pricy and don't always work.
mikeglg wrote:
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the...
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
forensic wrote:
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing...
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing the lever does it immediately return to functioning normally or does the condition last even with several squeezes of the lever?
When it starts to lose firmness, it lasts until i complete braking and leave the brakes.The next moment i hit the brakes (next turn) , it has returned to normal.
RaceFace58
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Meriden, CT, USA
3/9/2022 4:10am
mikeglg wrote:
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the...
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
forensic wrote:
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing...
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing the lever does it immediately return to functioning normally or does the condition last even with several squeezes of the lever?
mikeglg wrote:
When it starts to lose firmness, it lasts until i complete braking and leave the brakes.The next moment i hit the brakes (next turn) , it...
When it starts to lose firmness, it lasts until i complete braking and leave the brakes.The next moment i hit the brakes (next turn) , it has returned to normal.
No one can diagnosis it here they can only provide possibilities. You need to start replacing things. You can go cheap and start with the cheapest parts, and see if that helps. My guess if you can see fluid leaking anywhere, then air can just as easily get in at that spot. Doesn’t matter what you do bleed-wise if that’s the case.
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murph783
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USA
3/9/2022 4:51am
I would start with a steel braided line, fresh banjo bolts, and run the highest boiling point fluid you can find. Motul makes a good one.
JBecker 72
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Eastern Panhandle, WV, USA
3/9/2022 5:50am
These work good. This may also help tell if there is a slow leak due to pressure being constant in the system and pushing the oil...
These work good. This may also help tell if there is a slow leak due to pressure being constant in the system and pushing the oil out of hole whilst on the stand at home?
Front brake compressor
I recommend these highly from tech167_3d check it on insta




Zip tie
3/9/2022 8:34am
These work good. This may also help tell if there is a slow leak due to pressure being constant in the system and pushing the oil...
These work good. This may also help tell if there is a slow leak due to pressure being constant in the system and pushing the oil out of hole whilst on the stand at home?
Front brake compressor
I recommend these highly from tech167_3d check it on insta




JBecker 72 wrote:
Zip tie
You won’t pull chicks with a zip tie
1
forensic
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118
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12/3/2011
Location
Madison, WI, USA
3/9/2022 8:43am
mikeglg wrote:
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the...
I have rebuilt it and it became stronger in general, but the problem remained. I bleed the system using the classic way, pumping and cracking the bleed screw until i have firm feeling on the lever. Also i have done the zip tie trick a lot of times which also improved general power but never solved the problem. It seems that every time the fork compresses a lot, either from big bumps or after a hard landing, it affects front brake quality, temporarily.

Also when i put new fluids, didnt notice any difference. I dont think it is caused by boiling fluids because it can happen in the first seconds of the moto.
forensic wrote:
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing...
The leak from the banjo bolt is concerning... but with regard to a loss of brake firmness right after landing from a big jump: after squeezing the lever does it immediately return to functioning normally or does the condition last even with several squeezes of the lever?
mikeglg wrote:
When it starts to lose firmness, it lasts until i complete braking and leave the brakes.The next moment i hit the brakes (next turn) , it...
When it starts to lose firmness, it lasts until i complete braking and leave the brakes.The next moment i hit the brakes (next turn) , it has returned to normal.
If it only happens on big landings and then immediately returns to normal that suggests brake knock-back. I can't say I've come across it in motocross but happens in road racing. Never know, maybe you have something loose or misaligned that is causing it.

For the brake bleeding discussion here- my company did a study of brake bleeding for a motorcycle manufacturer and had clear acrylic master cylinders made to see the air bubbles in the master cylinder bore during the bleed process. We noticed that a large air bubble can often get stuck (due to surface tension of the bubble) inside the piston return spring, and because the bubble was larger than the coil spacing it was nearly impossible to remove it by normal bleeding. We found that 'flicking' the lever would agitate the bubble momentarily into many small bubbles that could gradually one-by-one escape the space between the spring coils. Very interesting problem that you would never realize.
3/9/2022 3:26pm
Check your front wheel bearings
Sounds like there is some play
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