2023 KTM models?

Jeff_Brines
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Jeff_Brines 11/24/2021 7:00am
11/24/2021 7:00am Edited Date/Time 11/24/2021 7:11am
Lots to unpack here! If anyone cares, I'll reply with a lot more detail RE: TPI vs carb vs other forms of fuel injection (being I've ridden carb setups and TPI setups) . I can also speak first hand about snowmobile oil injection, fuel injection, longevity & performance; directly comparing it to the two stroke fuel/oil injected bikes coming out.

Ultimately, anyone arguing for a carb *does* have a valid argument with respect to cost. I also see the argument for track use, being a lot of track riders don't change elevation/outside temp all that much. Set. Forget. Ride.

Personally, I "grew up" in the fuel injected snowmobile world; its what I'm most comfortable with. Hence, a lot of my bias.

EDIT: Barry pinged me to add comment for that video. I'm hyper aware of everything he's said, he's also a great dude. My favorite YouTuber for sure. He puts a lot of time into this stuff, and though he is not always right, he puts that out there in his style from the get go.
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endurox
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endurox 11/24/2021 7:23am
11/24/2021 7:23am
ratonmacias wrote:
Why is ktm trying tbi? Why does a 150 te makes 30 hp at the rear wheel? Why are people getting koobers? Why are injectors being...
Why is ktm trying tbi? Why does a 150 te makes 30 hp at the rear wheel? Why are people getting koobers? Why are injectors being relocated?
soggy wrote:
Why do people buy Ecu’s for there 4 stroke? Why do people add a second injector to there 250 4st??
The Austrians brands need to work on mapping their 2022 models. My GG ex250-f is advertised as a woods bike. Flame outs right off idle and then rich at 1/3 throttle for a non Ca. bike is insane. Not exactly a confidence inspiring bike on narrow single track trails. The dealers should sell the GET system at cost to deal with this issue. KTM USA did send an email to acknowledge that they received my email. Will see if they actually care about this issue.
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nskerb
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nskerb 11/24/2021 8:09am
11/24/2021 8:09am
Anybody saying they want the race 2strokes to stay simple and carb’d… A blue brand just came out with a very nice bike that has all the things you’re hoping for. KTM is very clearly going in a direction that you guys aren’t in favor of. Give your money to the brand that is currently producing what you’re asking for.
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swordfish
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swordfish 11/24/2021 8:10am
11/24/2021 8:10am
ratonmacias wrote:
Why is ktm trying tbi? Why does a 150 te makes 30 hp at the rear wheel? Why are people getting koobers? Why are injectors being...
Why is ktm trying tbi? Why does a 150 te makes 30 hp at the rear wheel? Why are people getting koobers? Why are injectors being relocated?
soggy wrote:
Why do people buy Ecu’s for there 4 stroke? Why do people add a second injector to there 250 4st??
endurox wrote:
The Austrians brands need to work on mapping their 2022 models. My GG ex250-f is advertised as a woods bike. Flame outs right off idle and...
The Austrians brands need to work on mapping their 2022 models. My GG ex250-f is advertised as a woods bike. Flame outs right off idle and then rich at 1/3 throttle for a non Ca. bike is insane. Not exactly a confidence inspiring bike on narrow single track trails. The dealers should sell the GET system at cost to deal with this issue. KTM USA did send an email to acknowledge that they received my email. Will see if they actually care about this issue.
It’s an XC bike and like the XCF and FX bikes it’s very similar to the MX models. My friend just picked up a 22 350EX and he bumped the idle which helps a little. I think he is going to get a Twisted remap. The 250/350 trail bikes are a little more woods friendly in terms of tuning. He’s played with gearing a little as well which has helped ride ability. I found the 21 Husky FX had too much engine breaking and flamed out more than I liked.
My YZ250FX was much easier to lug and keep lit.

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#434
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#434 11/25/2021 10:19am
11/25/2021 10:19am
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis!

It‘s Marcel Stauffer‘s bike which he used to win the German Youngster Cup and race the MXdN for Austria.

Mechanically this simplifies the engine quite a bit. No PV actuator, no kickstart housing or gearing, no oil pump or injector, no TP-Injector.

Here’s the electronic PV, a completely new cylinder without injectors and a new throttle body:


Here‘s the right side without kickstart housing and without the PV actuator:


The Austrian Team:



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swordfish
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swordfish 11/25/2021 11:29am
11/25/2021 11:29am
#434 wrote:
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis...
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis!

It‘s Marcel Stauffer‘s bike which he used to win the German Youngster Cup and race the MXdN for Austria.

Mechanically this simplifies the engine quite a bit. No PV actuator, no kickstart housing or gearing, no oil pump or injector, no TP-Injector.

Here’s the electronic PV, a completely new cylinder without injectors and a new throttle body:


Here‘s the right side without kickstart housing and without the PV actuator:


The Austrian Team:



It’s still gonna have a couple fuel injectors.
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#434
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#434 11/25/2021 11:47am
11/25/2021 11:47am
#434 wrote:
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis...
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis!

It‘s Marcel Stauffer‘s bike which he used to win the German Youngster Cup and race the MXdN for Austria.

Mechanically this simplifies the engine quite a bit. No PV actuator, no kickstart housing or gearing, no oil pump or injector, no TP-Injector.

Here’s the electronic PV, a completely new cylinder without injectors and a new throttle body:


Here‘s the right side without kickstart housing and without the PV actuator:


The Austrian Team:



swordfish wrote:
It’s still gonna have a couple fuel injectors.
For what?
#434
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#434 11/25/2021 11:54am
11/25/2021 11:54am
It looks pretty similar to the throttle body of the fourstroke bikes:


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ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 11/25/2021 12:46pm
11/25/2021 12:46pm
i like the way the tbi is going.

so far to me the tpi bikes are not appealing, hopefully in the future ktm gets the new injection bikes to feel more alive and less hard enduro ish.

if ktm hit the nail in the head with the sx and xc bikes being tbi they will really make a different product than the current gen of yz s, betas or shercos.
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duboiz
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duboiz 11/25/2021 8:22pm
11/25/2021 8:22pm
Vital mods get a text from Ian?
soopah noviss 11/25/2021 8:34pm
11/25/2021 8:34pm Edited Date/Time 11/25/2021 8:34pm
duboiz wrote:
Vital mods get a text from Ian?
Yeah, what happen? Huh

Where did the pic go?
reded301
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reded301 11/25/2021 8:38pm
11/25/2021 8:38pm
duboiz wrote:
Vital mods get a text from Ian?
soopah noviss wrote:
Yeah, what happen? Huh

Where did the pic go?
No shit, I just looked at it and was gonna comment on how I liked the re-style.
1
Austin_Rankin 11/26/2021 2:26am
11/26/2021 2:26am
duboiz wrote:
Vital mods get a text from Ian?
soopah noviss wrote:
Yeah, what happen? Huh

Where did the pic go?
I deleted it.
Vet57
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Vet57 11/26/2021 2:54am
11/26/2021 2:54am
Gettin a bit crowded underneath that tank. So much for the continued simplicity of 2 strokes?
swordfish
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swordfish 11/26/2021 2:56am
11/26/2021 2:56am
#434 wrote:
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis...
Took me a bit to find this pics from the MXdN, but here’s the 2023 250SX with premix-TBI, electronic PV, e-start only and the new chassis!

It‘s Marcel Stauffer‘s bike which he used to win the German Youngster Cup and race the MXdN for Austria.

Mechanically this simplifies the engine quite a bit. No PV actuator, no kickstart housing or gearing, no oil pump or injector, no TP-Injector.

Here’s the electronic PV, a completely new cylinder without injectors and a new throttle body:


Here‘s the right side without kickstart housing and without the PV actuator:


The Austrian Team:



swordfish wrote:
It’s still gonna have a couple fuel injectors.
#434 wrote:
For what?
How do you think the fuel makes it into the throttle body?
#434
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#434 11/26/2021 4:24am
11/26/2021 4:24am
swordfish wrote:
It’s still gonna have a couple fuel injectors.
#434 wrote:
For what?
swordfish wrote:
How do you think the fuel makes it into the throttle body?
Through an injector. Why would they use a couple?
swordfish
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swordfish 11/26/2021 5:05am
11/26/2021 5:05am
#434 wrote:
For what?
swordfish wrote:
How do you think the fuel makes it into the throttle body?
#434 wrote:
Through an injector. Why would they use a couple?
Because 2 is better than one. TM was testing with more than two injectors.
#434
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#434 11/26/2021 5:53am
11/26/2021 5:53am Edited Date/Time 11/26/2021 9:49am
swordfish wrote:
How do you think the fuel makes it into the throttle body?
#434 wrote:
Through an injector. Why would they use a couple?
swordfish wrote:
Because 2 is better than one. TM was testing with more than two injectors.
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that.
Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1 rocket engine!

The pictures of the bike show KTM‘s standard throttle body and that has only one injector. That’s what I‘m going with.
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swordfish
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swordfish 11/26/2021 10:07am
11/26/2021 10:07am
#434 wrote:
Through an injector. Why would they use a couple?
swordfish wrote:
Because 2 is better than one. TM was testing with more than two injectors.
#434 wrote:
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that. Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1...
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that.
Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1 rocket engine!

The pictures of the bike show KTM‘s standard throttle body and that has only one injector. That’s what I‘m going with.
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a lot. All the KTM TB conversion kits use 2 injectors, the Husky TBI test mules were using 2 injectors. It’s been shown that 2 or more injectors provide better and more consistent fueling for FI 2 strokes. At the end of the day no one knows. There are people here saying TPi is going to go away as well which makes no sense.
Austin_Rankin 11/26/2021 10:11am
11/26/2021 10:11am
Ktms clean routing and simple electronics, actually crate the most room under the tank we have seen 2 or 4 stroke.
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#434
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#434 11/26/2021 11:47am
11/26/2021 11:47am
swordfish wrote:
Because 2 is better than one. TM was testing with more than two injectors.
#434 wrote:
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that. Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1...
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that.
Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1 rocket engine!

The pictures of the bike show KTM‘s standard throttle body and that has only one injector. That’s what I‘m going with.
swordfish wrote:
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a...
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a lot. All the KTM TB conversion kits use 2 injectors, the Husky TBI test mules were using 2 injectors. It’s been shown that 2 or more injectors provide better and more consistent fueling for FI 2 strokes. At the end of the day no one knows. There are people here saying TPi is going to go away as well which makes no sense.
Bro, I just look at the pictures.. of course I can’t tell what they will put in production. But at least it’s not pure speculation.

Of course they use both TPI-injectors for the relocation kits, because they‘re already there, with the ecu setup and everything.

Injectors are expensive and they won’t put a second one on the bike if there’s no huge performance increase. Look at the KX. No OEM followed their example and put a second upstream injector on their 250f-bike. And the new 300 Minarelli FI-2stroke engine also has only one.
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swordfish
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swordfish 11/26/2021 11:51am
11/26/2021 11:51am
#434 wrote:
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that. Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1...
Haha, great arguments here: 2 is better than 1 and TM uses even more than that.
Maybe KTM will use the injector plate from an F1 rocket engine!

The pictures of the bike show KTM‘s standard throttle body and that has only one injector. That’s what I‘m going with.
swordfish wrote:
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a...
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a lot. All the KTM TB conversion kits use 2 injectors, the Husky TBI test mules were using 2 injectors. It’s been shown that 2 or more injectors provide better and more consistent fueling for FI 2 strokes. At the end of the day no one knows. There are people here saying TPi is going to go away as well which makes no sense.
#434 wrote:
Bro, I just look at the pictures.. of course I can’t tell what they will put in production. But at least it’s not pure speculation. Of...
Bro, I just look at the pictures.. of course I can’t tell what they will put in production. But at least it’s not pure speculation.

Of course they use both TPI-injectors for the relocation kits, because they‘re already there, with the ecu setup and everything.

Injectors are expensive and they won’t put a second one on the bike if there’s no huge performance increase. Look at the KX. No OEM followed their example and put a second upstream injector on their 250f-bike. And the new 300 Minarelli FI-2stroke engine also has only one.
True enough. I guess we will find out soon what is happening. Cool to see the development continue.
swordfish
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swordfish 11/26/2021 11:56am
11/26/2021 11:56am
The guy that developed the TPi we see on the KTM’s was also helping TM out with development. He mentioned that they were looking at the possibility of using up to 4 injectors. No idea how practical it would be with costs but it helped improve top end bringing the extra 2 injectors online. I think he’s running 4 on his newest YZ test rig.
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#434
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#434 11/26/2021 11:57am
11/26/2021 11:57am
swordfish wrote:
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a...
But does it? You know the TB from the 4 stroke is what they are using? You know as much as all the speculators. Not a lot. All the KTM TB conversion kits use 2 injectors, the Husky TBI test mules were using 2 injectors. It’s been shown that 2 or more injectors provide better and more consistent fueling for FI 2 strokes. At the end of the day no one knows. There are people here saying TPi is going to go away as well which makes no sense.
#434 wrote:
Bro, I just look at the pictures.. of course I can’t tell what they will put in production. But at least it’s not pure speculation. Of...
Bro, I just look at the pictures.. of course I can’t tell what they will put in production. But at least it’s not pure speculation.

Of course they use both TPI-injectors for the relocation kits, because they‘re already there, with the ecu setup and everything.

Injectors are expensive and they won’t put a second one on the bike if there’s no huge performance increase. Look at the KX. No OEM followed their example and put a second upstream injector on their 250f-bike. And the new 300 Minarelli FI-2stroke engine also has only one.
swordfish wrote:
True enough. I guess we will find out soon what is happening. Cool to see the development continue.
Yes! I‘m kinda excited. I‘m just a sucker for cool new tech. I think the combination of TBI and electronic PV will offer a great deal of adjustability.
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Pop Shmoke
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Pop Shmoke 11/26/2021 12:21pm
11/26/2021 12:21pm
When is this new ktm style going to be released to the public?
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ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 11/26/2021 12:43pm
11/26/2021 12:43pm
in 3 to 5 years these systems will be great enough time to wear out my current rides.
2strokenut
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2strokenut 11/26/2021 12:56pm
11/26/2021 12:56pm
ratonmacias wrote:
in 3 to 5 years these systems will be great enough time to wear out my current rides.
Just keep maintaining those YZs bud. Don't worry about us.
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ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 11/26/2021 2:33pm
11/26/2021 2:33pm
a hobby is never a worry
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tek14
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tek14 11/27/2021 11:38am
11/27/2021 11:38am

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M.B.
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M.B. 11/27/2021 12:02pm
11/27/2021 12:02pm Edited Date/Time 11/27/2021 12:12pm
tek14 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/11/27/520002/s1200_4A39ED5A_DBAA_470E_AC0D_63B7B9F8E69B.jpg[/img]

Maybe it is just wrong photo angle,but some proporions looks like china bikes))) Also i am not fun of asymetrical design language
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