10w 40 in 2 stroke premix

zehn
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zehn 12/27/2019 8:09pm
12/27/2019 8:09pm
zehn wrote:
My dad still has a can of Castrol GP 50 in the garage that he ran 20:1 in his '69 CZ. You had to run a...
My dad still has a can of Castrol GP 50 in the garage that he ran 20:1 in his '69 CZ. You had to run a super oil-rich mixture like that because the main bearings ran basically dry because on the off side it had a double-row ball bearing and on the drive side it had two single-row bearings inboard from the seal. The only other option for those motors was Castrol bean oil which burned too dirty.

Obviously this has nothing to do with this thread other than the fact that some true old-timer will probably remember doing this.

When asked if he would run a similar mix in a modern 2T motor, he just laughed. Given the availability of modern 2T oils and modern engine designs that breathe crankcase compression into the transfer ports, you'd have to have your head examined to run 4T oil IMO....
Even for seating the rings I wouldn't personally run 4T oil in modern motors. In our vintage race bikes it would make more sense IMO
Momus
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Momus 12/27/2019 8:29pm
12/27/2019 8:29pm
Momus wrote:
Good 10/40 will be fine. In a low stres,s watercooled modern two stroke. Dedicated 2 stroke oil would be better but no harm will be done...
Good 10/40 will be fine. In a low stres,s watercooled modern two stroke. Dedicated 2 stroke oil would be better but no harm will be done using that stuff. It lubricates 4 stroke engines which have higher loading almost everywhere successfully.
MotoTribology wrote:
What in the actual fuck are you talking about? :huh: Matt, Switch to a 2 stroke oil. Any bottom of the barrel 2 stroke oil whatsoever...
What in the actual fuck are you talking about? Huh


Matt,

Switch to a 2 stroke oil. Any bottom of the barrel 2 stroke oil whatsoever will be better than a 10W-40 4-stroke oil used a premix.

The lubrication is different; there are different requirements for a 2-stroke oil that a 4-stroke oil just won't have because:
a) it would be severely detrimental to 4-stroke engine's lubrication and
b) there is absolutely no need for a 4-stroke oil to have those attributes


For all those reminiscing, yes, there was a time when a 30wt engine oil could be used for premix. That time is what we in the industry call "the past". We are no longer in that time; just as we are no longer in a time where we load coal into our locomotives and don't lace our medicines with cocaine for its "healing properties".


As others have mentioned, either you or the salesperson were confused about the recommendation. The 10W-40 is for the transmission, not for premixing into the fuel. Switch to a 2-stroke oil for the premix and do it at the right ratio and be on your way. You probably didn't do any permanent damage in 1 tank, and any sludge or deposits will likely sort themselves out over time with a decent oil in the mix.
Lol. What will the mode of failure be with his engine if he continues to use a 10/40 premix Mr Expert?
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brettmx
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brettmx 12/27/2019 9:31pm
12/27/2019 9:31pm
I use to run Chevron 2-cycle oil. Worked great and at the time was a pretty inexpensive plus you could get it at any Chevron station if you needed some. Havoline must have bought them out. You can still get the Havoline brand but it's not as good a price. I use Motul now but I got a bunch of it free. I couldn't tell you the difference in performance and engine wear. However, I think I would stay with 2 stroke oil and stay away from regular 10/40 mostly because of deposits in the power valves.
Thisusernameisavailable 12/27/2019 11:09pm
12/27/2019 11:09pm
I’m no oil expert, but from what I can gather from these posts- proper 2T oil will burn cleaner.

But as far as lubrication to the crank, bearings and piston/cylinder wall, there will be no issue?

The Shop

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BobbyM
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BobbyM 12/28/2019 1:09am
12/28/2019 1:09am
That oil is fine.. Probably holeshot most of you squids.
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fullysicmate 12/28/2019 1:13am
12/28/2019 1:13am
If a dealer said that they shouldn’t be a dealer ......check that he meant it as premix and not transmission oil first of all. If not call him out.
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 12/28/2019 4:31pm
12/28/2019 4:31pm
Matt_Becket wrote:
As I said, first time owning a 2 stroke.I’m sure after I bought the bike it had proper pre mix. So far it’s had 2 full...
As I said, first time owning a 2 stroke.I’m sure after I bought the bike it had proper pre mix. So far it’s had 2 full tanks ran through the bike and only when I filled the bike up for the first time myself, I had used the 10w40. Rode it all day until empty.
I’m just wondering if there would be any significant damage done to the bike.
I have proper 2 stroke oil now and of course I’ll be using that.
I have no idea why the guy in the shop told me to use the oil he sold me and no I did not get confused with the gear box oil as we were talking about mixing ratios at the time.
Hey Matt......maybe my post came off like an asshole. If so , sorry about that. It was mainly geared towards not understanding why someone would use tranny oil instead of a proven premix oil in today age. Fwiw , I'm sure your bike will be fine , and I hope it is.
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HighPlainsSquid 12/28/2019 6:52pm
12/28/2019 6:52pm
Johnny Lock wrote:
The real reason you want to run two stroke oil is it smells way better doing its job.
That's the main reason I use Klotz.

FWIW, I ran Maxima Super M and K2, Lucas, and Yamalube in my '04 KX 125. In two years, I never fouled a plug. I switched to Klotz and had my first fouled plug (on start up) shortly after.
cable
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cable 12/28/2019 7:11pm
12/28/2019 7:11pm
Matt_Becket wrote:
As I said, first time owning a 2 stroke.I’m sure after I bought the bike it had proper pre mix. So far it’s had 2 full...
As I said, first time owning a 2 stroke.I’m sure after I bought the bike it had proper pre mix. So far it’s had 2 full tanks ran through the bike and only when I filled the bike up for the first time myself, I had used the 10w40. Rode it all day until empty.
I’m just wondering if there would be any significant damage done to the bike.
I have proper 2 stroke oil now and of course I’ll be using that.
I have no idea why the guy in the shop told me to use the oil he sold me and no I did not get confused with the gear box oil as we were talking about mixing ratios at the time.
Thank you for buying a 2 stroke. If you still have good compression your fine. Congrats on the new bike and question everything that dealer/salesguy says.
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MotoTribology 12/30/2019 6:00am
12/30/2019 6:00am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2019 6:02am
Momus wrote:
Lol. What will the mode of failure be with his engine if he continues to use a 10/40 premix Mr Expert?
The initial problem will most likely be the excessive deposits and sludge. The falllout from those things will be cause the actual failure as they progress. Any other questions?
uneasy_rider 12/30/2019 6:13am
12/30/2019 6:13am
I am not condoning, nor condemning, but my brother in law would save his used motor oil and used it as pre-mix as long as I can remember, with no issues ever?
Momus
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Momus 12/30/2019 8:07am
12/30/2019 8:07am
You didn't answer my question Sir.

In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure?

And, where in the actual fuck, would 'sludge' accumulate in a 2 stroke?

I don't think you have any good answers but are offended because someone is operating outside your orthodoxy
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motosmoke
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motosmoke 12/30/2019 8:11am
12/30/2019 8:11am
Momus wrote:
Lol. What will the mode of failure be with his engine if he continues to use a 10/40 premix Mr Expert?
MotoTribology wrote:
The initial problem will most likely be the excessive deposits and sludge. The falllout from those things will be cause the actual failure as they progress...
The initial problem will most likely be the excessive deposits and sludge. The falllout from those things will be cause the actual failure as they progress. Any other questions?
It will run cleaner than any straight castor oil on the market.

This is a non-issue.
Falcon
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Falcon 12/30/2019 8:18am
12/30/2019 8:18am
Momus wrote:
You didn't answer my question Sir. In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure? And...
You didn't answer my question Sir.

In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure?

And, where in the actual fuck, would 'sludge' accumulate in a 2 stroke?

I don't think you have any good answers but are offended because someone is operating outside your orthodoxy
I'll answer that for him:

Where will the sludge accumulate?
In the power valves.
In the entire exhaust tract, from the spark plug all the way to the tip of the silencer.
Backward from there, to the engine-side of the reed valves.
On the top of the piston.


Also, and more importantly, the film strength of a 10W-40 will be inferior when mixed with gasoline. Anyone using it as premix runs the risk of metal-to-metal contact anywhere that the oil lubricates. Piston seizure is the most likely mode of engine failure in this scenario, although it could be wrist pin seizure or bottom-end bearing failure as well. Should I continue?

I don't think Moto Tribology is offended and neither am I. However. two-stroke oils are far better as premix than four-stroke oils; they have been engineered and blended to do that specific job. You would be equally remiss to use chain lube as engine oil in your 4-stroke for all the same reasons; it isn't designed to do that job, even though "oil is oil."
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MotoTribology 12/30/2019 8:21am
12/30/2019 8:21am
Momus wrote:
You didn't answer my question Sir. In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure? And...
You didn't answer my question Sir.

In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure?

And, where in the actual fuck, would 'sludge' accumulate in a 2 stroke?

I don't think you have any good answers but are offended because someone is operating outside your orthodoxy
The sludge will accumulate in the bottom end; most likely the lowest point. And continue to burn very dirty and smolder at the relatively low temps. I'm not sure how that would be questionable. Even 2-stroke oils will do that in poor conditions/bad settings.

The mode of failure? Probably excessive wear, but it's not like one thing happens and it is all done. It is a cascade of failure brought on by the route cause of the oil not burning off as it should.

4-Stroke oil is not designed to burn like 2-stroke oils are. The aha moment in the development of 2-stroke specific oils was the realization that it didn't need to stick around; it could be designed to get in, do the job, and get out leaving minimal material behind in the process.

And friend, I'm not offended and didn't really mean to offend. I'm just trying to help and make a little light of the subject along the way; my apologies if it tickled you the wrong way. Wink
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motosmoke
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motosmoke 12/30/2019 8:23am
12/30/2019 8:23am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2019 8:25am
Momus wrote:
You didn't answer my question Sir. In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure? And...
You didn't answer my question Sir.

In your expert opinion, if the OP continues using 10/40 premix, what will be the mode of engine failure?

And, where in the actual fuck, would 'sludge' accumulate in a 2 stroke?

I don't think you have any good answers but are offended because someone is operating outside your orthodoxy
Falcon wrote:
I'll answer that for him: Where will the sludge accumulate? In the power valves. In the entire exhaust tract, from the spark plug all the way...
I'll answer that for him:

Where will the sludge accumulate?
In the power valves.
In the entire exhaust tract, from the spark plug all the way to the tip of the silencer.
Backward from there, to the engine-side of the reed valves.
On the top of the piston.


Also, and more importantly, the film strength of a 10W-40 will be inferior when mixed with gasoline. Anyone using it as premix runs the risk of metal-to-metal contact anywhere that the oil lubricates. Piston seizure is the most likely mode of engine failure in this scenario, although it could be wrist pin seizure or bottom-end bearing failure as well. Should I continue?

I don't think Moto Tribology is offended and neither am I. However. two-stroke oils are far better as premix than four-stroke oils; they have been engineered and blended to do that specific job. You would be equally remiss to use chain lube as engine oil in your 4-stroke for all the same reasons; it isn't designed to do that job, even though "oil is oil."
Metal to metal contact when using motor oil as premix? Lol

Big risk of engine seizure? Lol

I’m done for the day here. For some reason people got hundreds of hours on their motors when they ran Motor oils before there was “2 stroke oil”. without all this metal-metal, seizing of motors...

LOL I love how both “experts” above me chimed in with completely different answers.
Falcon
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Falcon 12/30/2019 8:24am
12/30/2019 8:24am
Momus wrote:
Lol. What will the mode of failure be with his engine if he continues to use a 10/40 premix Mr Expert?
MotoTribology wrote:
The initial problem will most likely be the excessive deposits and sludge. The falllout from those things will be cause the actual failure as they progress...
The initial problem will most likely be the excessive deposits and sludge. The falllout from those things will be cause the actual failure as they progress. Any other questions?
motosmoke wrote:
It will run cleaner than any straight castor oil on the market.

This is a non-issue.
I'd be interested to test that theory; you may be correct. Castor oils leave a residue also, although I'm not sure you can get straight castor anymore. (I'm not familiar with all of them, however.)

The point is, the 10W-40 will NOT run cleaner than a good, synthetic 2-stroke premix oil.

Pit Row

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MotoTribology 12/30/2019 8:25am
12/30/2019 8:25am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2019 8:47am
Falcon wrote:
I'll answer that for him: Where will the sludge accumulate? In the power valves. In the entire exhaust tract, from the spark plug all the way...
I'll answer that for him:

Where will the sludge accumulate?
In the power valves.
In the entire exhaust tract, from the spark plug all the way to the tip of the silencer.
Backward from there, to the engine-side of the reed valves.
On the top of the piston.


Also, and more importantly, the film strength of a 10W-40 will be inferior when mixed with gasoline. Anyone using it as premix runs the risk of metal-to-metal contact anywhere that the oil lubricates. Piston seizure is the most likely mode of engine failure in this scenario, although it could be wrist pin seizure or bottom-end bearing failure as well. Should I continue?

I don't think Moto Tribology is offended and neither am I. However. two-stroke oils are far better as premix than four-stroke oils; they have been engineered and blended to do that specific job. You would be equally remiss to use chain lube as engine oil in your 4-stroke for all the same reasons; it isn't designed to do that job, even though "oil is oil."
Though the sludge would form in those areas, I think the high temperatures would turn them into deposits relatively quick (except for the end of the exhaust; spooge anyone?). I think the "colder" areas are where it would actually accumulate.

But hey, I'm not a mechanic. Hell I'm not even an oil formulator anymore, so feel free to take my comments for whatever you think they're worth.

P.S. I've seen some chain lubes in my day that would probably have made some pretty decent 2T oils Woohoo
ReturnofJorddo 12/30/2019 8:45am
12/30/2019 8:45am
kb228 wrote:
Is this real
Same thing I thought when I picked up my old RM125 and buddy handed me a bottle of 10w-40 to mix Laughing
MotoTribology 12/30/2019 8:49am
12/30/2019 8:49am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2019 8:55am
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
I’m no oil expert, but from what I can gather from these posts- proper 2T oil will burn cleaner. But as far as lubrication to the...
I’m no oil expert, but from what I can gather from these posts- proper 2T oil will burn cleaner.

But as far as lubrication to the crank, bearings and piston/cylinder wall, there will be no issue?
Right. In general, it is not a lubrication issue. The oil and the antiwear additives in a 4-stroke will provide lubrication in the areas it reaches.

The residues left behind will be the biggest problem over time and all that comes with that (which then makes it a lubrication issue).

How much time you say? Hahaha good luck trying to predict that. Best answer I could give....it depends.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 12/30/2019 9:12am
12/30/2019 9:12am
WTF, I've been running 2 stroke oil in my gear box. Am I effed or what? Only have 500 hours on this thing.
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project racer 12/30/2019 1:04pm
12/30/2019 1:04pm
A well known off road racer back in the day ran out of fuel between checks down Baja way. A small can of 3 in 1 oil was all that could be sourced. With a gallon of the finest Pemex, 3 in 1 oil, and about a 120:1 ratio, the bike made it to the next check, and then onto the finish.

Cooking oil worked great on air filters also.
Bermworm
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Bermworm 12/30/2019 1:47pm
12/30/2019 1:47pm
project racer wrote:
A well known off road racer back in the day ran out of fuel between checks down Baja way. A small can of 3 in 1...
A well known off road racer back in the day ran out of fuel between checks down Baja way. A small can of 3 in 1 oil was all that could be sourced. With a gallon of the finest Pemex, 3 in 1 oil, and about a 120:1 ratio, the bike made it to the next check, and then onto the finish.

Cooking oil worked great on air filters also.
I do not doubt for a moment that this is a true story. I also don't doubt that he nursed his bike to make it through. Things that I have seen and grew up with. Cooking oil /motor oil as filter oil. Chain saw bar oil summer blend as chain lube. Saw a buddy once mix Amsoil at 100:1 with type B jet fuel for a grass drag race. Never saw anyone use 10w40 or any other multi viscosity oil as pre mix but did know someone who used straight 30w Rotella as premix and honestly it sounded as strange in 1978 as it does today.P.s. I still use white lithium grease on my air filters to ensure a complete seal and a lot of people these days think that is daft as well.
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RCF
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RCF 12/31/2019 4:54am
12/31/2019 4:54am
used to use this back in the day in the transmission and the gas
Timo_2824
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Timo_2824 12/31/2019 5:07am
12/31/2019 5:07am
Oil companies have definitely got their monies worth on advertising. This thread also shows how old each person is, younger people say each oil has its intended use, and won't work outside of said use. Old timers be like, I used cooking oil in my bike and my exhaust smelled like french fries...
jeffro503
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jeffro503 12/31/2019 5:37am
12/31/2019 5:37am
Timo_2824 wrote:
Oil companies have definitely got their monies worth on advertising. This thread also shows how old each person is, younger people say each oil has its...
Oil companies have definitely got their monies worth on advertising. This thread also shows how old each person is, younger people say each oil has its intended use, and won't work outside of said use. Old timers be like, I used cooking oil in my bike and my exhaust smelled like french fries...
Possibly. My first encounter with being around 2 strokes was 1977 and my buddies older brother had a 77' RM 100. And another buddy of mine ( whom I still ride with today , Cliff ) had a new 1979 YZ 80. Both used golden spectro as far as I remember. I had a 75' XR75 so I didn't count in the premix conversation. But even the older guys we rode with , I don't remember any of them ever using tranny oil as a premix. My very first 2 stroke was a 1982 RM 125 ( Bought used from the guy I mentioned above that owned the RM 100 before that . ) I've always used just a normal 2 stroke premix , and can't seem to remember anyone around here running tranny oil as a premix. So I'm going on about 42 years of being around them , and about 35+ years of riding them.......I aint exactly new.
Falcon
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Falcon 12/31/2019 11:21am
12/31/2019 11:21am
Timo_2824 wrote:
Oil companies have definitely got their monies worth on advertising. This thread also shows how old each person is, younger people say each oil has its...
Oil companies have definitely got their monies worth on advertising. This thread also shows how old each person is, younger people say each oil has its intended use, and won't work outside of said use. Old timers be like, I used cooking oil in my bike and my exhaust smelled like french fries...
jeffro503 wrote:
Possibly. My first encounter with being around 2 strokes was 1977 and my buddies older brother had a 77' RM 100. And another buddy of mine...
Possibly. My first encounter with being around 2 strokes was 1977 and my buddies older brother had a 77' RM 100. And another buddy of mine ( whom I still ride with today , Cliff ) had a new 1979 YZ 80. Both used golden spectro as far as I remember. I had a 75' XR75 so I didn't count in the premix conversation. But even the older guys we rode with , I don't remember any of them ever using tranny oil as a premix. My very first 2 stroke was a 1982 RM 125 ( Bought used from the guy I mentioned above that owned the RM 100 before that . ) I've always used just a normal 2 stroke premix , and can't seem to remember anyone around here running tranny oil as a premix. So I'm going on about 42 years of being around them , and about 35+ years of riding them.......I aint exactly new.
Same here. My '82 RM80 ran on Penzoil 2-stroke oil. It was for chainsaws, but it was 2-stroke oil nonetheless.

Oil companies do certainly advertise to maximize their profits, but they are also making oils which truly are different for different applications. It's why you rarely ever hear of "Oil-related engine failure" anymore.
RandyS
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RandyS 12/31/2019 11:37am
12/31/2019 11:37am
IWreckALot wrote:
WTF, I've been running 2 stroke oil in my gear box. Am I effed or what? Only have 500 hours on this thing.
I hope you didn't use it straight out of the bottle, it has to be pre- mixed. I would go 20 to 1, 40 to 1 is too rich, or lean. I always get those confused.
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ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 12/31/2019 12:05pm
12/31/2019 12:05pm
IWreckALot wrote:
WTF, I've been running 2 stroke oil in my gear box. Am I effed or what? Only have 500 hours on this thing.
RandyS wrote:
I hope you didn't use it straight out of the bottle, it has to be pre- mixed. I would go 20 to 1, 40 to 1...
I hope you didn't use it straight out of the bottle, it has to be pre- mixed. I would go 20 to 1, 40 to 1 is too rich, or lean. I always get those confused.
40 to 1 would be a richer fuel mixture.

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