Factory Bikes, Titanium Cranks and Camshafts?

Mit12
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Mit12 6/26/2019 3:35pm
6/26/2019 3:35pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2019 3:37pm
Titanium rods work well because it reduces reciprocating weight. A Titanium crank is rotating weight and it would be way to light for MX. It would make the power delivery way to abrupt, this would make for a lot of wheel spin.
RMguy
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RMguy 6/29/2019 1:42pm
6/29/2019 1:42pm
Thanks for the replys, really interesting.
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Ebs
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Ebs 6/29/2019 1:54pm
6/29/2019 1:54pm
You can read up on some of the materials and coatings that Formula 1 uses (or have been used and banned) to get an idea whats out there.
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#434
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#434 7/5/2019 11:38am
7/5/2019 11:38am
Wow! Could you go into the details of this engine, please?!?

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DRT
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DRT 7/5/2019 2:11pm
7/5/2019 2:11pm
#434 wrote:
Wow! Could you go into the details of this engine, please?!?
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal engines.
Joko
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Joko 7/5/2019 6:45pm
7/5/2019 6:45pm
#434 wrote:
Wow! Could you go into the details of this engine, please?!?
DRT wrote:
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal...
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal engines.
Looks like the small end of the rod is bushed, but not the big end?
mx_phreek 7/6/2019 4:22am
7/6/2019 4:22am Edited Date/Time 7/6/2019 1:11pm
#434 wrote:
Wow! Could you go into the details of this engine, please?!?
DRT wrote:
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal...
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal engines.
Have the pics disappeared from this thread? I can't see them.
jock
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jock 7/6/2019 4:37am
7/6/2019 4:37am
#434 wrote:
Wow! Could you go into the details of this engine, please?!?
DRT wrote:
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal...
Yes it's one of our old 2016 KX250 DRT engines that only a few it seems not so trusted people had some higher spec than normal engines.
mx_phreek wrote:
Have the pics disappeared from this thread? I can't see them.
Yeah, they are gone. Sad
#434
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#434 7/6/2019 9:50am
7/6/2019 9:50am
Haha! So it really was some secret stuff!!
StartedTooLate 7/6/2019 11:37am
7/6/2019 11:37am Edited Date/Time 7/6/2019 11:40am
#434 wrote:
A crankshaft has to be as stiff as possible, which means the material it's made of should have the highest Young's modulus possible. As steel has...
A crankshaft has to be as stiff as possible, which means the material it's made of should have the highest Young's modulus possible. As steel has a much higher Young's modulus than titanium it's the superior material for the job.
mxtech1 wrote:
Young's modulus is only a small part of the overall stiffness equation for an ICE crankshaft.
Yeah...but the most important part because your physical size constraints are fixed. If I was going to bet on the factories saving weight in the crank and gearbox, I can think of two things. #1 for SX...have fewer gears....3 speed or 4 speed. #2 Higher spec material allowing you to thin up the spur gears, etc to save weight. Specifically, use Ferrium C64 or similar. This is used in military helicopter transmissions. This exotic steel was engineered specifically for this application - minimizing weight in critical aerospace transmission applications. More than a few F1 cars utilize this. This material can be carburized to the same surface hardness as 8620 (61-62 Rockwell C) but achieves a much stronger core, at 225 ksi yield vs 120 ksi for 8620. https://www.questek.com/ferrium-c64.html
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2stmark
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2stmark 7/6/2019 9:37pm
7/6/2019 9:37pm Edited Date/Time 7/6/2019 9:40pm
If you could imagine some exotic parts …...
the owners of Ktm also own Pankl , builder of F1 engine parts …. rods , trans parts etc.
in fact Pankl builds production parts for Ktm now
Tokyo_Tiddler
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Tokyo_Tiddler 7/7/2019 1:51am
7/7/2019 1:51am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2019 1:53am
Titanium is not a good metal for a lot of engine parts.. it galls fairly easy even when lubed. Not good where parts rub together. I cant imagine a Ti flat tappet camshaft. I see it mainly limited to connecting rods. The comment above re the modulus of elasticity is another factor. A high quality aluminum alloy can have advantages over titanium in the right places.
wolf918
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wolf918 7/7/2019 4:27am
7/7/2019 4:27am
Sooo, are there factory spies watching vital?
#434
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#434 7/7/2019 5:49am
7/7/2019 5:49am
Derek Harris wrote:
People seem to forget the Ktm is already at the weight limit production form. (well almost) There is no point to chasing the weight gains of...
People seem to forget the Ktm is already at the weight limit production form. (well almost)
There is no point to chasing the weight gains of a ti crank or camshaft when easier and less risky areas exist for improvement.

And yes - Ktm factory uses a lot of production parts - if you ever work on a Ktm - they source the best of practically everything, bone stock. I’ve gotten to see some insides of a factory ktm 250f - and it was surprisingly mundane.

Their clutch design can not be lightened or improved - and I’ll bet you the factory bikes run nothing more than a Hinson cover

Now - would I entertain that Honda might be doing something like this - yes. They are 20 lbs too heavy stock, have an insanely deep racing division that is currently motivated to win.

It’s been publicly available from Europe on some titanium rods with some really trick technology in the bearing load areas - the typical problem with ti so let’s just assume since it’s actually a production piece - people use them.

Ti wrist pins I’ve heard too

No way in hell would I run ti valve springs. Never

Ti tranny shafts makes good sense - large part

Ktm already uses aluminum shift drums - super light.
I’d bet the other oems do for racing as well
Ti shift shafts and forks would seem reasonable, but doubtful

Ktm conceivably could do a ti clutch basket, but highly unlikely imho. They don’t need to save the weight.

Honda/kaw/Rm using a ti clutch basket gear - would save a ton of weight

Ti counter balancer shafts - sure

I don’t care for ceramic bearings but you can save weight there


The stock KTM being on the weight limit is a sign to change the rules and lower the limit.
Maybe the rules should more be something like this: a bike‘s weight must not be lower than 95% of the stock weight.
This would motivate the Japanese to lower the weight of their stock bikes.
Derek Harris 7/7/2019 10:17am
7/7/2019 10:17am
Derek Harris wrote:
People seem to forget the Ktm is already at the weight limit production form. (well almost) There is no point to chasing the weight gains of...
People seem to forget the Ktm is already at the weight limit production form. (well almost)
There is no point to chasing the weight gains of a ti crank or camshaft when easier and less risky areas exist for improvement.

And yes - Ktm factory uses a lot of production parts - if you ever work on a Ktm - they source the best of practically everything, bone stock. I’ve gotten to see some insides of a factory ktm 250f - and it was surprisingly mundane.

Their clutch design can not be lightened or improved - and I’ll bet you the factory bikes run nothing more than a Hinson cover

Now - would I entertain that Honda might be doing something like this - yes. They are 20 lbs too heavy stock, have an insanely deep racing division that is currently motivated to win.

It’s been publicly available from Europe on some titanium rods with some really trick technology in the bearing load areas - the typical problem with ti so let’s just assume since it’s actually a production piece - people use them.

Ti wrist pins I’ve heard too

No way in hell would I run ti valve springs. Never

Ti tranny shafts makes good sense - large part

Ktm already uses aluminum shift drums - super light.
I’d bet the other oems do for racing as well
Ti shift shafts and forks would seem reasonable, but doubtful

Ktm conceivably could do a ti clutch basket, but highly unlikely imho. They don’t need to save the weight.

Honda/kaw/Rm using a ti clutch basket gear - would save a ton of weight

Ti counter balancer shafts - sure

I don’t care for ceramic bearings but you can save weight there


#434 wrote:
The stock KTM being on the weight limit is a sign to change the rules and lower the limit. Maybe the rules should more be something...
The stock KTM being on the weight limit is a sign to change the rules and lower the limit.
Maybe the rules should more be something like this: a bike‘s weight must not be lower than 95% of the stock weight.
This would motivate the Japanese to lower the weight of their stock bikes.
You think the japs aren't motivated as is?

I guarantee you they are...but they also have a way of thinking that isn't revolutionary - rather evolutionary.

Yamaha has mentioned they have a durability standard they cant meet at lower weights...although quite frankly Im not seeing that translate to reality vs ktm.

In any case - KTM can no play with fine tuning things - as the base package is already "there"

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