What "changes" Did They Make to Tomac's Bike?

280driver
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280driver 4/16/2019 2:46pm
4/16/2019 2:46pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
ML, did MW not let Savatgy make changes either? If, he was not limit, why was it only Eli? If Savatgy was limited as well, presumably we’ll see even more out of him these few rounds.
Rhody
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Rhody 4/16/2019 3:10pm
4/16/2019 3:10pm
280driver wrote:
ML, did MW not let Savatgy make changes either? If, he was not limit, why was it only Eli? If Savatgy was limited as well, presumably...
ML, did MW not let Savatgy make changes either? If, he was not limit, why was it only Eli? If Savatgy was limited as well, presumably we’ll see even more out of him these few rounds.
Savatgy may have liked the bike the way MW wanted to set it up. I know in 4 wheeled racing you can have a car that one driver loves, and you put another driver in it and he can't find his ass with a compass, 2 flashlights, a roadmap, GPS, RADAR and a homing pigeon. Make 2 or 3 changes that take around 10 minutes, the guy that couldn't find his ass is a rocket and the other guy swears that the crew chief is trying to kill him. I assume bikes and riders are similar.
ML512
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ML512 4/16/2019 3:14pm
4/16/2019 3:14pm
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
Derek Harris wrote:
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop...
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver

It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop section and wouldn't start until about 8 minutes in.

At that point - he was going no where at the end of the whoops and visibly the bike just wouldnt go.
It was clearly a clutch completely toasted... and I think thats why we witnessed a really poor eli. Why didn't he jump the finish?? Well - I think the bike was literally limping in.

I think the switch to hydrualic (which I NEVER UNDERSTOOD why people assume that makes a clutch last longer or "not fade" - it only helps lever fade)
has made the issue worse for Eli. He used to be able to tell off cable slack what was going on and how much cluthc was left

Now the lever feel is always the same - and it makes ruining a clutch way easier....



kpiper wrote:
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode...
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
I’ve seen it happen in multiple races, they just haven’t really picked up on it for the broadcast.
ML512
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ML512 4/16/2019 3:16pm
4/16/2019 3:16pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
280driver wrote:
ML, did MW not let Savatgy make changes either? If, he was not limit, why was it only Eli? If Savatgy was limited as well, presumably...
ML, did MW not let Savatgy make changes either? If, he was not limit, why was it only Eli? If Savatgy was limited as well, presumably we’ll see even more out of him these few rounds.
Williamson was not the crew chief for Savatgy, only for Tomac. Savatgy’s crew chief is Theo Lockwood.
3

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omalley
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omalley 4/16/2019 3:17pm
4/16/2019 3:17pm
New sponsor-John Force Racing. Installed a top fuel funny car clutch....
1
Underground 4/16/2019 3:18pm
4/16/2019 3:18pm
But Kawie makes the best plates in the business.
Underground 4/16/2019 3:21pm
4/16/2019 3:21pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
So it turns a bit like a Honda ?
ML512
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ML512 4/16/2019 3:22pm
4/16/2019 3:22pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 3:24pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
Underground wrote:
So it turns a bit like a Honda ?
Or a KTM

From what I know, when Eli was last on Honda’s they were running rake that wasn’t the same as production.
1
kpiper
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kpiper 4/16/2019 4:29pm
4/16/2019 4:29pm
You know ET had issues with the bike because MW said, 'The bike is great! It's not the bike.' That was just a little shot.
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Crush
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Crush 4/16/2019 4:44pm
4/16/2019 4:44pm
kpiper wrote:
You know ET had issues with the bike because MW said, 'The bike is great! It's not the bike.' That was just a little shot.
Yeah that was weird.
2
Underground 4/16/2019 4:55pm
4/16/2019 4:55pm
They both come from settings out of DeCoster's little black book of chassis testing
downard254
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downard254 4/16/2019 5:26pm
4/16/2019 5:26pm
Derek Harris wrote:
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes...
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
ML512 wrote:
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he...
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking I remember reading that he did this to load the rear suspension or to limit wheel spin, or something like that. I can’t remember for sure, but this talk of Tomac using the clutch like he does reminded me of Bayle. Does anyone remember hearing this about him, or can confirm that?
slipdog
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slipdog 4/16/2019 5:27pm
4/16/2019 5:27pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
Underground wrote:
So it turns a bit like a Honda ?
ML512 wrote:
Or a KTM

From what I know, when Eli was last on Honda’s they were running rake that wasn’t the same as production.
While I have my ideas, what direction did he prefer on the rake/trail?
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avidchimp 4/16/2019 5:30pm
4/16/2019 5:30pm
downard254 wrote:
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking...
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking I remember reading that he did this to load the rear suspension or to limit wheel spin, or something like that. I can’t remember for sure, but this talk of Tomac using the clutch like he does reminded me of Bayle. Does anyone remember hearing this about him, or can confirm that?
Dragging the rear brake helps moderate compression/rebound, especially on a downhill like Mt. St.Helen.
1
ctbale
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ctbale 4/16/2019 6:05pm
4/16/2019 6:05pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
holy holy shit. like crush said if that is now changed and he is doing better that is huge. stability, cornering, everything relies on that geometry.

previously stated I can see why there is some dampening or resistance to changing settings on every other lap but you got to cater to the rider to a certain point
AngryBear
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AngryBear 4/16/2019 6:33pm
4/16/2019 6:33pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
he's trail riding in CO now. stamp it.
Do_Work
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Do_Work 4/16/2019 7:40pm
4/16/2019 7:40pm
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
Just to clarify Michael, when you say rake you mean the rake angle? As in offset stem bearings?

Interesting and I wonder how technical the Tomacs are... do they keep a notebook with this secret rake/trail combo?
1
ctbale
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ctbale 4/16/2019 8:36pm
4/16/2019 8:36pm
I think you can tweak it with different triple clamps vs welding on a different steering head bearing assy. Also rear sag can change it. I know off-set is only set with the triple clamps.

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lostboy819 4/16/2019 9:08pm
4/16/2019 9:08pm
kpiper wrote:
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode...
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name dropper here at Vital then you have to drop the name and not say just a "friend" Cool
1
slipdog
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slipdog 4/16/2019 9:39pm
4/16/2019 9:39pm
ctbale wrote:
I think you can tweak it with different triple clamps vs welding on a different steering head bearing assy. Also rear sag can change it. I...
I think you can tweak it with different triple clamps vs welding on a different steering head bearing assy. Also rear sag can change it. I know off-set is only set with the triple clamps.
Offset bearing races will change the rake, something Kawasaki could easily acquire.
VRR7
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VRR7 4/16/2019 9:42pm
4/16/2019 9:42pm
Removed the Mike WIlliamson
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Underground 4/16/2019 10:51pm
4/16/2019 10:51pm
kpiper wrote:
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode...
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
lostboy819 wrote:
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name...
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name dropper here at Vital then you have to drop the name and not say just a "friend" Cool
Unless you're a journo Wink
haydos25
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haydos25 4/16/2019 10:51pm
4/16/2019 10:51pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 11:01pm
So Eli couldn't win because Kawasaki wouldn't let him change his bike?

But Cooper is now winning because he shut up and stopped trying to change the bike and just rode it to the best of his ability?

Veeeeerrrrryyyyy interestiiiiinnnggWink
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FWYT 4/16/2019 10:58pm
4/16/2019 10:58pm
downard254 wrote:
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking...
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking I remember reading that he did this to load the rear suspension or to limit wheel spin, or something like that. I can’t remember for sure, but this talk of Tomac using the clutch like he does reminded me of Bayle. Does anyone remember hearing this about him, or can confirm that?
I remember reading article on Honda's factory Baja bikes back when and they had a trick rear caliper.
They got it off of one of Bayle's works motocrossers. Apparently he was so heavy on the rear brake that
they had to make some mondo calipers for him. So yeah, your recolection rings a bell.
1
STLSharky
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STLSharky 4/17/2019 4:46am
4/17/2019 4:46am
kpiper wrote:
Yes, another Eli thread but does no one out there know what they did to the bike? Come on GuyB??? Matthes??? Nerd??? DC??? Weege???? Something significant...
Yes, another Eli thread but does no one out there know what they did to the bike?

Come on GuyB??? Matthes??? Nerd??? DC??? Weege????

Something significant must have been done as the guy looks totally different the last two races. I know the Eli haters will say it is all in his head but that is simply not the case right now.

They did something and it worked. In his interview, Eli refuses to say what.

I remember CR22 talking about how on the Honda a set of factory triple clamps made a huge difference and he went out and won right away.
All bullshit
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MOTO732
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MOTO732 4/17/2019 4:58am
4/17/2019 4:58am
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
ML512 wrote:
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he...
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
downard254 wrote:
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking...
I seem to remember back when Bayle was racing the 500 class, he would go through a set of rear brake pads every race. I’m thinking I remember reading that he did this to load the rear suspension or to limit wheel spin, or something like that. I can’t remember for sure, but this talk of Tomac using the clutch like he does reminded me of Bayle. Does anyone remember hearing this about him, or can confirm that?
Bayle would also slightly drag the rear brake in the whoops. It controlled rebound, kicking and kept the bike straighter is my understanding. How he did it is beyond me.
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/17/2019 5:59am
4/17/2019 5:59am
kpiper wrote:
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode...
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
lostboy819 wrote:
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name...
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name dropper here at Vital then you have to drop the name and not say just a "friend" Cool
Robert Van Winkle?
4
slipdog
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slipdog 4/17/2019 6:03am
4/17/2019 6:03am
kpiper wrote:
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode...
How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
lostboy819 wrote:
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name...
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name dropper here at Vital then you have to drop the name and not say just a "friend" Cool
Johnny Depp wrote:
Robert Van Winkle?
You're a cold man, Johnny Depp... Cold as ice!
2
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/17/2019 6:30am
4/17/2019 6:30am
Johnny Depp wrote:
IIRC last year? they made a change after a few races to the ride height and put more weight on the front, and his results instantly...
IIRC last year? they made a change after a few races to the ride height and put more weight on the front, and his results instantly changed for the good. Perhaps he has long desired the same changes to the '19, and MW got in the way of that. He looks comfortable now, probably at home eating a pizza and taking a nap.
eric513anderson wrote:
Your correct. I can’t remember if it was during SX or outdoors but I do remember them saying they added or took away 1mm of sag...
Your correct. I can’t remember if it was during SX or outdoors but I do remember them saying they added or took away 1mm of sag and that made all the difference.

Here's a MEC reference to KYB's and the '18 front axle 20mm.

https://www.vitalmx.com/features/Vital-MX-Pit-Bits-2018-Monster-Energy-…

There's a photo from Arlington that shows his transmission vent, maybe with a puff of smoke? and it is way low under the linkage.
https://www.vitalmx.com/features/Vital-MX-Pit-Bits-Arlington,5832

I was on the floor at the corner before the finish line at Houston, and it was not clutch IMO, I know what a slipping clutch sounds like. IMO opinion he figured he was already out of it and would rather have someone/anyone else beat Webb so handed him a position.

Kawasaki had run an oil cooler for years, not now. Hmm.
2
lostboy819 4/17/2019 7:19am
4/17/2019 7:19am
lostboy819 wrote:
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name...
Ok so who is your friend who is a "former MX National champion" ? Now look here Noob, if you are going to be a name dropper here at Vital then you have to drop the name and not say just a "friend" Cool
Johnny Depp wrote:
Robert Van Winkle?
slipdog wrote:
You're a cold man, Johnny Depp... Cold as ice!
You need to Stop, collaborate and listen.
3

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