Harley at it again

barnett468
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Wildomar, CA, USA
3/5/2019 6:03pm
Keep a squirt can of old oil in your truck. When you see a Harley, squirt a few puddles under it from the can. Great free...
Keep a squirt can of old oil in your truck. When you see a Harley, squirt a few puddles under it from the can. Great free entertainment.
ummm...there's no need to.
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2
motogrady
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3/5/2019 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 3/5/2019 6:27pm
Well, as far as the HD/Buell thing goes. I just wish they would have clamped down on Eric and said, before anymore space age stuff, give us a 600 so we can go racing. Something that could enter and run with the Japanese.
And really, they had a golden opportunity right after DMG ran all the factories off.
I mean, effin Daytona was won with shop and garage teams for those few years.

Even his last bike, which was really cool, what was it. A 950 or something? Only problem was, it didn't fit any of the mainstream roadracingworld classes.
And really, they stuck with Buell for what, a decade?
If they were tech robbers with him, seems to me they would have pulled a Hero or scrap dealer thing.
U know, a year or 2 and then throw him to the curb.

Man, thinking about it it still pisses me off. Both HD and Eric could have us, America, in the hunt maybe not in motogp, but hey, everywhere else.

I dunno Average Joe. They canned The Griffin Project about the same time they did Buell. Maybe the bean counters told corporate hey, it's beginning to look like AMF all over, time to cut back and make sure we stay alive. And u can't fault them for that.
1
3/5/2019 6:45pm
LungButter wrote:
I bet they just re brand them and keep selling the shit out of them. They can't be stupid enough to kill it off, the kids...
I bet they just re brand them and keep selling the shit out of them.

They can't be stupid enough to kill it off, the kids market is HUGE
Never underestimate how stupid Harley can be.
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1
BikerScars
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Grinnell, IA, USA
3/5/2019 7:24pm
MOTO732 wrote:
Any company that makes more revenue on marketing its apparel line than the actual product it builds, I have zero faith in. HD is a T-shirt...
Any company that makes more revenue on marketing its apparel line than the actual product it builds, I have zero faith in. HD is a T-shirt company that makes bikes.
Its a genius formula, as margins in P&A (parts and accessories/apparel) is WAY higher than bikes.

And their P&A has been way higher profit center even when their demand height in the 1990s.


Imagine if Honda sold CRFs AND they owned the biggest market share in aftermarket wheels, clutches, pipes, pegs, bars AND moto pants, boots, helmets, gloves, and apparel. Pretty impressive.

That said, no one wants their dad's "overpriced noisemaker". I agree and I have probably owned as many as 50 Harleys in my 40 years of riding bikes. When HD took off in the mid 1980s, the culture was completely different and primed to own a piece of Americana. But that biker culture and today's could not be more different. Harley needs to reinvent themselves in a declining street bike market. Not at all sure how they do it? Smaller bikes, less expensive bikes, some different styling? I hope they figure it out.
1

The Shop

3/5/2019 7:36pm
No, I meant 60 yr olds and 3 yr olds will be the only ones riding Harleys now, making the average age 31.5, thus giving the impression millennials ride Harleys. lol
4
bvm111
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3/5/2019 7:53pm
kb228 wrote:
Inb4 the harley dudes swarm to the defense of their overpriced noise makers

7
1
mhog
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Gastonia, NC, USA
3/5/2019 8:05pm
Harley has an unsustainable business model. If they don’t diversify, they will suffer from the same struggles that GM did. The demographics for their customer base is growing old and the Millennials aren’t buying into the nostalgia product they have historically offered. I think it’s a good move to try to tap into a new, possible emerging market. If not,they’re heading down a bankrupt road.
1
3/6/2019 4:52am
mikec265 wrote:
I won't be buying a Stacyc anymore. I just saved $700! I'd rather run my fat ass off with a PW50 on a leash than give...
I won't be buying a Stacyc anymore. I just saved $700! I'd rather run my fat ass off with a PW50 on a leash than give Harley a penny. (Already have the PW from the first kid). Being an Alta owner I naturally dislike Harley already.
Damn right, why support a US company!!
3
kb228
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3/6/2019 5:02am
hititpind wrote:
UNREAL. Build and sell a company in a couple years for tons of $$$$$.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
The American Dream Cool
motogrady wrote:
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country. Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck...
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country.

Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck off for the rest of ones life. Like the corporate assholes that sold off practically every industry to China during the 70s and 80s.

At least HD is trying to think long term. One of the only companies that is actually expanding overseas,
trying to make money off other countries, instead of the other way around.

Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch about rich people being rich.
6
Fourth_Floor
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3/6/2019 6:07am
Good for them for being proactive in bringing more options to the market. That mountain bike looking hybrid looks like it'd be fun as hell to play around on as long as their pricing isn't ridiculous.
motogrady
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3/6/2019 6:21am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
The American Dream Cool
motogrady wrote:
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country. Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck...
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country.

Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck off for the rest of ones life. Like the corporate assholes that sold off practically every industry to China during the 70s and 80s.

At least HD is trying to think long term. One of the only companies that is actually expanding overseas,
trying to make money off other countries, instead of the other way around.

kb228 wrote:
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch...
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch about rich people being rich.
No, what disappoints me is the mindset of get rich quick and sell it off is the American Dream. Plenty of well off have worked hard for a long time. Building a viable product or service that not only makes them rich, but improves the standard of living for those around them, long term.

That one is not interested in building something only to sell asap, for pure monetary gain, is by no means an indicator of ambition. Or the lack thereof.
6
MOTO732
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3/6/2019 6:46am
HD could make an electric bike and it would still be unreliable, leak oil and be loud.
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Yeti365
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Chula Vista, CA, USA
3/6/2019 6:54am
MOTO732 wrote:
Any company that makes more revenue on marketing its apparel line than the actual product it builds, I have zero faith in. HD is a T-shirt...
Any company that makes more revenue on marketing its apparel line than the actual product it builds, I have zero faith in. HD is a T-shirt company that makes bikes.
This is probably the most solid explanation of Harley Davidson that I think I've ever come across.
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1
526
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Colgate, WI, USA
3/6/2019 7:42am
HD Management will destroy this I am afraid.
731chopper
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3/6/2019 8:05am
Good for the guy that started Stacyc, I'm happy for anyone who achieves success, especially those coming from the moto industry. But while these cash outs are great for the original owner(s) of the company, they're rarely ever good for the personnel, culture and product that got the company to the point of others companies wanting to buy them.

Hopefully this is an exception to the rule and HD can bring some economies of scale advantages to lower the price point and overcome supply issues they may have been facing.
Hudd_421
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3/6/2019 8:10am
motogrady wrote:
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country. Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck...
And that right there is one of the big things wrong with the mindset of this country.

Me Me Me. Make the quick buck and fuck off for the rest of ones life. Like the corporate assholes that sold off practically every industry to China during the 70s and 80s.

At least HD is trying to think long term. One of the only companies that is actually expanding overseas,
trying to make money off other countries, instead of the other way around.

kb228 wrote:
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch...
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch about rich people being rich.
motogrady wrote:
No, what disappoints me is the mindset of get rich quick and sell it off is the American Dream. Plenty of well off have worked hard...
No, what disappoints me is the mindset of get rich quick and sell it off is the American Dream. Plenty of well off have worked hard for a long time. Building a viable product or service that not only makes them rich, but improves the standard of living for those around them, long term.

That one is not interested in building something only to sell asap, for pure monetary gain, is by no means an indicator of ambition. Or the lack thereof.
Someone hates Capitalism. How do you know he wont take that money and start up another business that employs more people and builds a "viable product"? How do you know that this won't impact the lives around him? Don't be an asshat.
5
Bluelion
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3/6/2019 8:18am
there are some really narrow minded people out there...Jeeeesh
1
motogrady
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USA
3/6/2019 9:00am
kb228 wrote:
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch...
Nothing wrong with finding a way to make millions. Having the attitude you wrote is why people stay broke and dont do anything and then bitch about rich people being rich.
motogrady wrote:
No, what disappoints me is the mindset of get rich quick and sell it off is the American Dream. Plenty of well off have worked hard...
No, what disappoints me is the mindset of get rich quick and sell it off is the American Dream. Plenty of well off have worked hard for a long time. Building a viable product or service that not only makes them rich, but improves the standard of living for those around them, long term.

That one is not interested in building something only to sell asap, for pure monetary gain, is by no means an indicator of ambition. Or the lack thereof.
Hudd_421 wrote:
Someone hates Capitalism. How do you know he wont take that money and start up another business that employs more people and builds a "viable product"...
Someone hates Capitalism. How do you know he wont take that money and start up another business that employs more people and builds a "viable product"? How do you know that this won't impact the lives around him? Don't be an asshat.
Yeah well that someone isn't me.

How do u know what he will do?
You don't.
All we know is he's now not a player with his company, that vision, and the well being of those that helped him get there.
And yes, it's his right to sell, just as its Harley's right
to buy and do whatever they want with it.

And say what you will, HD are, and have been, one of the largest motorcycle companies, for longer than anyone. Anyone.

Debate that.

I dunno. It just seems to me, there's a ton out there, looking to design an app on what something should do, rather than doing something themself.
3
chaseodc
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Fort Myers, FL, USA
3/6/2019 10:02am
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated business dealings.
The fact that people are trying to draw parallels of any of these reported acquisitions to the Buell deal is laughable.

Keith Wandell was the demise of the Buell program, he believed that the historical Harley core customer (baby boomer) was the way to recover from the recession.

At this juncture it appears Harley is making an effort to build the foundation for a robust electric lineup. I, as a patriotic American would only wish the best for any American based company to be successful. The Alta deal strikes a sour note with all of us because I believe there was/is something truly special with their products. There is very little information available with the Harley investment and immediate 180 but I think it's short sighted to blame them for Alta's demise. Harley didn't formulate the Alta business plan.
1
3/6/2019 10:38am
Great thread. Very entertaining. So much anger from Harley guy and electric bike guy.
motogrady
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3/6/2019 11:25am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2019 11:29am
chaseodc wrote:
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated...
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated business dealings.
The fact that people are trying to draw parallels of any of these reported acquisitions to the Buell deal is laughable.

Keith Wandell was the demise of the Buell program, he believed that the historical Harley core customer (baby boomer) was the way to recover from the recession.

At this juncture it appears Harley is making an effort to build the foundation for a robust electric lineup. I, as a patriotic American would only wish the best for any American based company to be successful. The Alta deal strikes a sour note with all of us because I believe there was/is something truly special with their products. There is very little information available with the Harley investment and immediate 180 but I think it's short sighted to blame them for Alta's demise. Harley didn't formulate the Alta business plan.
Well chase, to be fair, Wandell just did what Willie G did when they got it back from AMF.
Get rid of the fluff and get back to doing what they did well, making big cruisers.
And it worked. Both times.

The Alta thing, we went rounds here awhile back about that. Someone even put up a link to an interview one of the founders at Alta did on some business site.
Apparently the plan was to make a high performance, quality bike that would enter and win race events . Which would then create enough hype
to attract enough investors to take it to the next level. Which was to be the first electric 4 wheeler side by side. They were right on one thing, the 4 wheeler side by sides are one of the hottest segments in off road right now. That's where the big payoff was.

They just miscalculated on the cash flow needed to get there. It wasn't HD at fault. HD probably did what they did thinking there was something there they could use, and saw there wasn't. So they backed off. So what. That's business.

No, the Alta failure was all on those guys that designed the original business model. They got close, but no cigar. I agree with chase. Nobody's fault but their own.

Which is a bummer, I was really hoping they would pull it off.

Will the electric thing save HD? I have my doubts.
I mean, look at electric cars, look at solar power. Even with the massive government grants, that stuff still just creeps along. What makes them think bikes will be different, I just don't know.

chaseodc
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3/6/2019 11:48am
chaseodc wrote:
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated...
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated business dealings.
The fact that people are trying to draw parallels of any of these reported acquisitions to the Buell deal is laughable.

Keith Wandell was the demise of the Buell program, he believed that the historical Harley core customer (baby boomer) was the way to recover from the recession.

At this juncture it appears Harley is making an effort to build the foundation for a robust electric lineup. I, as a patriotic American would only wish the best for any American based company to be successful. The Alta deal strikes a sour note with all of us because I believe there was/is something truly special with their products. There is very little information available with the Harley investment and immediate 180 but I think it's short sighted to blame them for Alta's demise. Harley didn't formulate the Alta business plan.
motogrady wrote:
Well chase, to be fair, Wandell just did what Willie G did when they got it back from AMF. Get rid of the fluff and get...
Well chase, to be fair, Wandell just did what Willie G did when they got it back from AMF.
Get rid of the fluff and get back to doing what they did well, making big cruisers.
And it worked. Both times.

The Alta thing, we went rounds here awhile back about that. Someone even put up a link to an interview one of the founders at Alta did on some business site.
Apparently the plan was to make a high performance, quality bike that would enter and win race events . Which would then create enough hype
to attract enough investors to take it to the next level. Which was to be the first electric 4 wheeler side by side. They were right on one thing, the 4 wheeler side by sides are one of the hottest segments in off road right now. That's where the big payoff was.

They just miscalculated on the cash flow needed to get there. It wasn't HD at fault. HD probably did what they did thinking there was something there they could use, and saw there wasn't. So they backed off. So what. That's business.

No, the Alta failure was all on those guys that designed the original business model. They got close, but no cigar. I agree with chase. Nobody's fault but their own.

Which is a bummer, I was really hoping they would pull it off.

Will the electric thing save HD? I have my doubts.
I mean, look at electric cars, look at solar power. Even with the massive government grants, that stuff still just creeps along. What makes them think bikes will be different, I just don't know.

I agree. My focus towards Wandell was more to point out that it wasn't as much an Eric Buell problem as an economic solution presented by a CEO. ( possibly a short sighted one at that).

As far as electric saving HD. With the current proposed future gas models and a full electric line I say they survive. It's going to be tough again for a while until they find their new identity but ultimately they will pull through.

I also believe that Alta was extremely close to success and that their business model was a calculated risk. Such a shame. As a motorcycle enthusiast, fan, and consumer both of these business decisions are huge losses, which is why they evoke so much emotion from many.
motogrady
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3/6/2019 12:10pm Edited Date/Time 3/6/2019 12:23pm
Im not getting rich. It's not the overriding concern for me. Would I like not having to worry about money?
Sure.
But I answer to no one. Well, my customers at times.
I keep people warm when it's cold.
And cool when it's hot.
The beer at the local bar is cold, the meat in the walkin box won't go bad, because of what I do.
I give guys that want a job, and a trade if they stick around long enough to pick it up.

In other words, I make my own way.

What about you?

Edit. This was a response to someone that apparently had a question for me,
had second thoughts, and deleted his post. Kum by ya, bro.
kb228
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Mansfield, OH, USA
3/6/2019 12:17pm
Honestly herlings wont have anything for eli at hangtown
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Torco1
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Corona, CA, USA
3/6/2019 12:30pm
This is an interesting move. They already have the tech from their "partnership" with Alta to build whatever mode of electric transportation they please. I'm suspecting...
This is an interesting move. They already have the tech from their "partnership" with Alta to build whatever mode of electric transportation they please. I'm suspecting they saw Stacyc as a competitor in their latest electric bicycle venture and bought them out to squash them...

During X Games hill climb back in January, HD announced their line of electric bikes:

https://youtu.be/lU5kt4atGPQ?start=323
Logan Lackey is Brad Lackey's son.....just a little trivia for ya....
motogrady
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3/6/2019 12:39pm
chaseodc wrote:
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated...
I think a large portion of the issue with these discussions is that there are soooo many opinions formed from a fragmented preception of wildly complicated business dealings.
The fact that people are trying to draw parallels of any of these reported acquisitions to the Buell deal is laughable.

Keith Wandell was the demise of the Buell program, he believed that the historical Harley core customer (baby boomer) was the way to recover from the recession.

At this juncture it appears Harley is making an effort to build the foundation for a robust electric lineup. I, as a patriotic American would only wish the best for any American based company to be successful. The Alta deal strikes a sour note with all of us because I believe there was/is something truly special with their products. There is very little information available with the Harley investment and immediate 180 but I think it's short sighted to blame them for Alta's demise. Harley didn't formulate the Alta business plan.
motogrady wrote:
Well chase, to be fair, Wandell just did what Willie G did when they got it back from AMF. Get rid of the fluff and get...
Well chase, to be fair, Wandell just did what Willie G did when they got it back from AMF.
Get rid of the fluff and get back to doing what they did well, making big cruisers.
And it worked. Both times.

The Alta thing, we went rounds here awhile back about that. Someone even put up a link to an interview one of the founders at Alta did on some business site.
Apparently the plan was to make a high performance, quality bike that would enter and win race events . Which would then create enough hype
to attract enough investors to take it to the next level. Which was to be the first electric 4 wheeler side by side. They were right on one thing, the 4 wheeler side by sides are one of the hottest segments in off road right now. That's where the big payoff was.

They just miscalculated on the cash flow needed to get there. It wasn't HD at fault. HD probably did what they did thinking there was something there they could use, and saw there wasn't. So they backed off. So what. That's business.

No, the Alta failure was all on those guys that designed the original business model. They got close, but no cigar. I agree with chase. Nobody's fault but their own.

Which is a bummer, I was really hoping they would pull it off.

Will the electric thing save HD? I have my doubts.
I mean, look at electric cars, look at solar power. Even with the massive government grants, that stuff still just creeps along. What makes them think bikes will be different, I just don't know.

chaseodc wrote:
I agree. My focus towards Wandell was more to point out that it wasn't as much an Eric Buell problem as an economic solution presented by...
I agree. My focus towards Wandell was more to point out that it wasn't as much an Eric Buell problem as an economic solution presented by a CEO. ( possibly a short sighted one at that).

As far as electric saving HD. With the current proposed future gas models and a full electric line I say they survive. It's going to be tough again for a while until they find their new identity but ultimately they will pull through.

I also believe that Alta was extremely close to success and that their business model was a calculated risk. Such a shame. As a motorcycle enthusiast, fan, and consumer both of these business decisions are huge losses, which is why they evoke so much emotion from many.
I think they will survive also.
They have shown, they will cut back, layoff, and close plants without batting an eye.

And believe it or not, there are still a few younger guys that want orange and black.
Enough to feed the monster at its present size, I'd think no. Even with the strong overseas sales they presently have.

They are survivors, have been, for over a century, and hopefully will be around for another one.
Marty1028
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3/6/2019 4:37pm
i thought the "oil spot being normal" was a joke. Then i went and looked at my dads 1200 custom that has 2000 miles on it. Safe to say the top of the case was soaked.
2
SmokinJoe439
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Renton, WA, USA
3/6/2019 4:46pm
My friend always says Harley is a life style company.
1

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