Team USA: Where do we go from Here

Titan1
Posts
9409
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
10/8/2018 6:24am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 8:47am
Titan1 wrote:
I think for this generation of GP riders are just better than the American riders...but that will change. The talent in MXGP is incredible right now...but...
I think for this generation of GP riders are just better than the American riders...but that will change.

The talent in MXGP is incredible right now...but MX2 is much weaker (with a few exceptions-but not enough exceptions to field 3 winning riders from any one country) while the talent the 250 nationals is much deeper than our 450 class...as this generation of riders (Cairoli to Herlings) starts to retire-and AC is the tip of that sword-you’ll see the MXDN wins come back to the Americans...because we do have the largest talent pool in the world, and what is happening right now is an anomaly, in that countries with such small populations have 3 winning riders.

And Americans caring so much about super cross isn’t helping the problem.

MX Sports needs to roughen up the tracks, and add a real sand track.

And how about our riders learn how to start?
keinz wrote:
What a heck are you talking about. MX2 is weaker in Europe? Our mx2 guys smoked both, Tomac and Barcia
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it?

I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than this Generation of AMA riders...but that will change as this generation of GP riders starts to retire-starting with cairoli.

And there are some exceptions to the weak MX2 field...but not enough to field three strong riders for any one countries MXdN team like you are seeing now.

But it could be another 10 long years for team USA before that happens...then USA will be on top for a generation again. And back and forth the pendulum will swing.

(And this showing was awful for team USA...run this same race 10 more times, and USA will probably win at least one, but they won’t finish this bad again. The Tomac that smoked everyone at the two America GP’s isn’t all the sudden a top 10 guy in the GP’s...so this isn’t indicative of the talent disparity between the series, even though the MXGP class is still faster/deeper at the moment.)
keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
10/8/2018 6:37am
Back to the roots
1
RG95
Posts
240
Joined
8/15/2010
Location
Messina IT
10/8/2018 6:39am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 1:11pm
Titan1 wrote:
I think for this generation of GP riders are just better than the American riders...but that will change. The talent in MXGP is incredible right now...but...
I think for this generation of GP riders are just better than the American riders...but that will change.

The talent in MXGP is incredible right now...but MX2 is much weaker (with a few exceptions-but not enough exceptions to field 3 winning riders from any one country) while the talent the 250 nationals is much deeper than our 450 class...as this generation of riders (Cairoli to Herlings) starts to retire-and AC is the tip of that sword-you’ll see the MXDN wins come back to the Americans...because we do have the largest talent pool in the world, and what is happening right now is an anomaly, in that countries with such small populations have 3 winning riders.

And Americans caring so much about super cross isn’t helping the problem.

MX Sports needs to roughen up the tracks, and add a real sand track.

And how about our riders learn how to start?
keinz wrote:
What a heck are you talking about. MX2 is weaker in Europe? Our mx2 guys smoked both, Tomac and Barcia
Titan1 wrote:
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it? I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than...
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it?

I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than this Generation of AMA riders...but that will change as this generation of GP riders starts to retire-starting with cairoli.

And there are some exceptions to the weak MX2 field...but not enough to field three strong riders for any one countries MXdN team like you are seeing now.

But it could be another 10 long years for team USA before that happens...then USA will be on top for a generation again. And back and forth the pendulum will swing.

(And this showing was awful for team USA...run this same race 10 more times, and USA will probably win at least one, but they won’t finish this bad again. The Tomac that smoked everyone at the two America GP’s isn’t all the sudden a top 10 guy in the GP’s...so this isn’t indicative of the talent disparity between the series, even though the MXGP class is still faster/deeper at the moment.)
I don't think you all will ever see again that Tomac giving 1 min gap everyone. I have a feeling that he must have changed, well let me say that's great for him and you all american fans should be proud of that. He will probably bring home more titles by racing like this, imho.

P.S.: don't forget 2015 and 2016 were the years that Cairoli lost the championship and was never comfortable during the entire years. He came back stronger in 2017 at 32 years old and you know what happened to Jacksonville 2017, so it's not "all the sudden" or "mud race" as you may think.

gt80rider
Posts
6934
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO US
10/8/2018 6:44am
Where do we go from here? Well, our guys aren't going to start doing a bigger ratio of mx to sx practice just to win Des Nations.....

Team USA is what it is, we are not the fastest outdoors anymore, not even close...... but, here in America, SX is simply more important (read- that's where the real money is at)....... it looks like we'll keep taking our lumps outdoors at Des Nations while our guys continue to rake in more money indoors.... that just seems to be the long and short of it to me...

The Shop

keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
10/8/2018 6:48am
MCarthur wrote:
I think, USA just needs to be patient. USA were clearly the best in the 80s, and there was SX. Then, the Europeans, and in particular...
I think, USA just needs to be patient.

USA were clearly the best in the 80s, and there was SX. Then, the Europeans, and in particular the Belgian, succeeded in the 1990s in forming teams with 3 competitive riders. Then in the 2000s, the USA dominated the field again (And there was SX as well). For the past 7 or 8 years, European countries, and in particular the French, have been able to find 3 strong riders to form teams. That will not be always the case. That's the problem for European small countries (BEL, NEL, CH, etc) : find 3 top riders able to score top 15.
This is not the case for a country with +300M inhabitants such as the USA.

Imagine another format like the Ryder Cup (15 best USA riders vs 15 best EU riders). That would be different.
You mean like for France last year, they had no one to pick exept an enduro guy. This Year Tixier who was out all season due the injury?
1
peltier626
Posts
1395
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
10/8/2018 6:51am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 6:53am
Paul_Jacky wrote:
How many of the people here ride sx?? We all ride mx right? Why do we want to see the best of the world race a...
How many of the people here ride sx?? We all ride mx right? Why do we want to see the best of the world race a different sport?? It al started with mx.. you say its about the money?? Bs!!!... the money comes from the fans it comes from us, well you guys pay for this.. boycot the sx and they start racing mx only again.. then you will have a better chance for 2019
I enjoy the show aspect of sx but agree that too much emphasis has been placed on the indoor series. A boycott would be the only thing that would change things. With all the eyes focused on that major whooping we just received, hopefully the U.S. riders have some fire lit under their rear and some things change.

1
keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
10/8/2018 6:52am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 6:54am
Titan1 wrote:
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it? I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than...
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it?

I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than this Generation of AMA riders...but that will change as this generation of GP riders starts to retire-starting with cairoli.

And there are some exceptions to the weak MX2 field...but not enough to field three strong riders for any one countries MXdN team like you are seeing now.

But it could be another 10 long years for team USA before that happens...then USA will be on top for a generation again. And back and forth the pendulum will swing.

(And this showing was awful for team USA...run this same race 10 more times, and USA will probably win at least one, but they won’t finish this bad again. The Tomac that smoked everyone at the two America GP’s isn’t all the sudden a top 10 guy in the GP’s...so this isn’t indicative of the talent disparity between the series, even though the MXGP class is still faster/deeper at the moment.)
In the matter of fackt. I'm the citizen of EU.Get you facts strait.
peltier626
Posts
1395
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
10/8/2018 6:55am
We fans ultimately have the control. Show them with your money. 12 rounds of sx, 16 rounds outdoors. Vary the track conditions and racing surfaces. 125's at every national for youth development.
3
Nighttrain
Posts
2768
Joined
12/5/2011
Location
Charleston, SC US
10/8/2018 6:59am
How about we change nothing. FELD shouldn’t and won’t change their business to assist the efforts of racers in a different series.. The US Nationals have venues are that are managed to support the MX Sports business model. If any US riders want to make the MXdN their priority then they should go race the MXGP’s. The MXdN is their race at the end of their season.
Titan1
Posts
9409
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
10/8/2018 7:03am
Titan1 wrote:
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it? I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than...
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it?

I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than this Generation of AMA riders...but that will change as this generation of GP riders starts to retire-starting with cairoli.

And there are some exceptions to the weak MX2 field...but not enough to field three strong riders for any one countries MXdN team like you are seeing now.

But it could be another 10 long years for team USA before that happens...then USA will be on top for a generation again. And back and forth the pendulum will swing.

(And this showing was awful for team USA...run this same race 10 more times, and USA will probably win at least one, but they won’t finish this bad again. The Tomac that smoked everyone at the two America GP’s isn’t all the sudden a top 10 guy in the GP’s...so this isn’t indicative of the talent disparity between the series, even though the MXGP class is still faster/deeper at the moment.)
keinz wrote:
In the matter of fackt. I'm the citizen of EU.Get you facts strait.
So the GP’s are only an EU series? No races anywhere else in the world?
keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
10/8/2018 7:13am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 7:29am
Sry guys, but you all bashing on Luongo, but what about FELd .I don't undesrstand why? It's the business for them, and always going to be. I'm the SX fan, allways been, every year. I'm even took the trip to Las Vegas to watch my heroes in 2009. But what now? Till the half of the season of SX you have some exitement, but from this poit of the series it's boring as hell. Half the field out due the injuries, first guy have something like 100 points lead, and all you folks starting to wait and talk about outdoors. I know, it 's never going to be change, because there is the profit for promotors like FELD to earn. Same goes for Luongo in MXGP, but at least the series is growing. It's all about money, and nobody cares what the fans like we want . Period. Use to it, or take another dicipline to sheer about, because we have to deal wit what we have
5
10/8/2018 7:18am
I can't be the only one who enjoys the supercross season more then the motocross... I always get bored of the MX season..doesn't have the intensity...
I can't be the only one who enjoys the supercross season more then the motocross...
I always get bored of the MX season..doesn't have the intensity of the supercross racing.

WCRider wrote:
You're not alone. Now, I prefer SX. I was a fan of the 1990/2000's MXGP's but now it's a total KTM world, it's boring. In SX...
You're not alone. Now, I prefer SX. I was a fan of the 1990/2000's MXGP's but now it's a total KTM world, it's boring. In SX, the skill rider still has a slight advantage over the bike. In MXGP it is just the opposite.


A good rider can become excellent on a KTM in MXGP while a good rider can become excellent in SX on any brand. That's the difference.

Don't be daft.

Use Jeff as an example on Honda or other brand and the result is the same. It's not KTM's fault they invested so much in their program and riders.

The Japanese factory effort is less from all of them and that is the reason, HRC for fucks sake have only just realised they need a proper 250 again hence the Vlaanderen effort, why it took so long to remember after Tim did it on a factory supported effort I'll never know. This is HRC we are talking about and they should know better, so should the rest.




FWYT
Posts
3540
Joined
5/25/2014
Location
San Diego, CA US
10/8/2018 7:25am
Admission is the first step . . .
2
NV825
Posts
2156
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Carson City, NV US
10/8/2018 7:26am
Wherever we go, I hope that destination has a grid to practice 20 million starts. I don't think we had a single rider inside the top 10 of a moto start yet Prado on a damn 250 lit up the starts.
2
keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
10/8/2018 7:30am
Titan1 wrote:
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it? I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than...
“Our”? Are the GP’s a country now? And you’re a citizen of it?

I mean what a I said...this generation of GP riders is faster than this Generation of AMA riders...but that will change as this generation of GP riders starts to retire-starting with cairoli.

And there are some exceptions to the weak MX2 field...but not enough to field three strong riders for any one countries MXdN team like you are seeing now.

But it could be another 10 long years for team USA before that happens...then USA will be on top for a generation again. And back and forth the pendulum will swing.

(And this showing was awful for team USA...run this same race 10 more times, and USA will probably win at least one, but they won’t finish this bad again. The Tomac that smoked everyone at the two America GP’s isn’t all the sudden a top 10 guy in the GP’s...so this isn’t indicative of the talent disparity between the series, even though the MXGP class is still faster/deeper at the moment.)
keinz wrote:
In the matter of fackt. I'm the citizen of EU.Get you facts strait.
Titan1 wrote:
So the GP’s are only an EU series? No races anywhere else in the world?
Don't be a bric. You know what i mean
SWOHIO GUY
Posts
393
Joined
10/2/2018
Location
Franklin, OH US
10/8/2018 8:01am
Honestly, I don't know if Tomac is far off from Herlings, Caroli, Coldendoff. I never got to make that judgement because he never got a start. That is something that bit Eli in the ass this week because the Euros have a lot deeper field of competition and he can't just blow by guys. I thought Eli rode very well in moto 3, he started outside of the top 20, got up to 10th then crashed and was only able to get up to 7th. This track favored a good start because it was really hard to pass on.

I think Anderson should have been the pick over Barcia and I think it hurt Plessinger that he had been testing his 450 for the last month then had to jump back on a 250.

I am not sure if the US needs to change much, other than figure out how to start, and not shit the bed on your home soil.
1
10/8/2018 8:04am Edited Date/Time 10/9/2018 8:43am
I don't think the state of USA MX is anywhere near as bad as people are making out to be. In race 1, Only Herlings and DeSalle had faster laps than Tomac, and in race 3, only Herlings and Coldenhoff had faster laps than Tomac. Plessinger had an off day, maybe due to injury from his Saturday crash. Barcia was a little further off Tomac than he usually is.

Had the US riders gotten better starts, they would have been in podium contention, and as close as the podium was, that would mean they were in contention for the win. The depth of talent in this race is bigger than the average US National, which means it is harder to pass riders and make your way to the front. Take away either Plessinger's crash or Tomac's mechanical on Saturday, and the US likely gets better starts, which means better finishes.

Sometimes luck goes your way (France), and sometimes it goes against you (Netherlands and USA). In the races I watched, I saw a bunch of competitive riders from many nations, all of whom were close on skill and talent. Netherlands, Italy, France, USA, Belgium and Great Britain all had teams that could have won. Australia, Spain, and Germany could have ended up on the podium.

The US team didn't embarrass themselves. They are still among the best in the world, but a little bad luck and they had a worse than average weekend for them, which happens sometimes. Replay the whole weekend 10 times and the US probably wins at least one of those. (NL probably wins 4 or 5, though).

I look forward to next year. I hope the US sends a team that wants to be there. I hope that Slovenia sends a team so we can see Gajser. I hope that Febvre is healthy. Even if none of those things happen, I'll watch it, and I'll enjoy every minute.
1
10/8/2018 8:14am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2018 8:17am
racer495a wrote:
Start with replacing Roger. Clearly we need a big change. We mine as well take next year off. That will be an even worse ass kicking
What does Roger DeCoster or any symbolic "coach" for the US MxDN team ultimately have to do with their performance? There's not a single US pro that would have faired any better than Tomac, Barcia or Plessenger. That is the coach's job - to pick the team. The rest is up to each individual.

We're not as good as the Euro's in outdoor motocross. Plain and simple.
clem
Posts
361
Joined
6/12/2009
Location
Thibodaux, LA US
10/8/2018 8:28am
I agree with some that US or AMA MX is not in dire straits like some may want to believe. In the last USGP's since 2015 an AMA rider has one 6 out of 8 motos. That's not a bad record at all. I will agree that the depth has been a little greater in MXGP's over the last couple of years but that could swing either way year to year.
Nighttrain
Posts
2768
Joined
12/5/2011
Location
Charleston, SC US
10/8/2018 9:04am
hillbilly wrote:
Preach on it Tim.

Bunch of dipshits talking pride of country would prolly take a knee at the local high school football game.
Myself included very few on Vital have raced at the level you did, Hillbilly. Some of your bench racing stories would give proper perspective.
str8line
Posts
3651
Joined
9/20/2018
Location
Sandy, UT US
10/8/2018 9:07am
Watch the tracks the Euros ride during the week and watch the tracks the US guys ride during the week. Euros ride the Somme and the...
Watch the tracks the Euros ride during the week and watch the tracks the US guys ride during the week. Euros ride the Somme and the US ride the billiard table.
Training needs to change

This is the answer right here.
str8line
Posts
3651
Joined
9/20/2018
Location
Sandy, UT US
10/8/2018 9:12am
NV825 wrote:
Wherever we go, I hope that destination has a grid to practice 20 million starts. I don't think we had a single rider inside the top...
Wherever we go, I hope that destination has a grid to practice 20 million starts. I don't think we had a single rider inside the top 10 of a moto start yet Prado on a damn 250 lit up the starts.
Absolutely. If Tomac were 5th or better at the start it might have been different. I just don't see Tomac dropping if he starts near the front. Too bad he couldn't get a holeshot so we could find out.
2
Bramlett321
Posts
1070
Joined
9/14/2012
Location
Texarkana, TX US
10/8/2018 9:20am
es337 wrote:
If you cant be at them change the rules. Sxdn.
That is the sad truth right there...yep we got our asses straight up kicked and yes that pill is fukn bitter. What would happen if Tomac faced off in a dash for cash with Herlings on any SX track? He’s going to work him in the same fashion....this is what happens when you change your racing culture over the last 20 years. So from now on we will continue to lose the des Nations and cry for a month then move on to Supercross which is where our guys get PAID!!!
Kawi15
Posts
568
Joined
5/31/2014
Location
West Richland, WA US
10/8/2018 9:24am
It is racing and it is just the way things go from race to race. One will not win them all. There is nothing radically wrong or any serious change that needs to happen to the US motocross. The only thing they need to do is start preparing for the next series. Back to work. Back to training, preparing, studying etc. Time to do all in their power to be better prepared and do much better next time they line up behind the starting gate.
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
10/8/2018 9:24am
Assen hey. Ouch. Better hope the Florida national is sandy.
eGGz
Posts
166
Joined
3/22/2015
Location
Kenwood, CA US
10/8/2018 9:29am
Both AMA and MXGP racers are amazing talented athletes!

I think it is unrealistic to expect the dual focus (SX-MX) AMA racers to be competitive with the single focus (MX only) MXGP racers.

If one divides their focus among multiple activities, logic dictates that one would not become as proficient at said activities as would one who applies all their focus on a single activity.

This weekend the MXGP racers proved that they are better at their speciality. If they weren't better it would surely be quite humiliating.

To answer the topic question: Seems unlikely there will be any radical change in the foreseeable future.
bsharkey
Posts
2162
Joined
6/16/2014
Location
Marysville, WA US
10/8/2018 9:37am
You can't fix what we have here in American motocross. Amateur Riders are getting paid better than Pros.kids are getting contracts when they're still on super minis for the pros the current AMA system has put how many families into debt before their kids even turned Pro? it's ridiculous to top it off once the kids turn pro the outdoors don't pay anything for money and that's when they need it the most. If you can't ride Supercross here you're screwed. with Supercross comes tons of injuries .our current system just chews up Riders and spits them out it's pretty bad when you're a top 10 rider and you can't stay on a factory team I mean what's wrong with that system. I don't see the outdoors over here in the US getting any better especially for privateers. everyone seems to think They are Expendable but without them there be 20 guys on the gate maybe less. I hate to say it but outdoor motocross in America is shrinking. Even all the local events we go to it's gone down less and less people are doing it and I think kids are getting smarter and seeing the end game realizing they could just move on to other things because Motocross ain't going to pay your bills except for a few of them.
1
lumpy790
Posts
11307
Joined
9/18/2007
Location
York, SC US
10/8/2018 9:45am
Pitting the riders as a team and NOT spreading them all around the pits in different rigs might help riders focus and team approach by sharing riding line tips to each other
1
Sideways
Posts
1880
Joined
9/8/2012
Location
SE
10/8/2018 9:47am
It feels like you guys and to some point the american riders have given up. Every other riders steps it up at mxon, the US rider almost takes a step down. The US guys have always been in fight for the win! They didnt feel it this year and had bad starts etc but as dungey said "keep plugging away" and the trophy will get back to the U.S soon!

I actually fear that america will stop showing up. And that would be extremely sad.
5
KTM boy 137
Posts
760
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Brittlecreek, IL US
10/8/2018 9:58am
bsharkey wrote:
You can't fix what we have here in American motocross. Amateur Riders are getting paid better than Pros.kids are getting contracts when they're still on super...
You can't fix what we have here in American motocross. Amateur Riders are getting paid better than Pros.kids are getting contracts when they're still on super minis for the pros the current AMA system has put how many families into debt before their kids even turned Pro? it's ridiculous to top it off once the kids turn pro the outdoors don't pay anything for money and that's when they need it the most. If you can't ride Supercross here you're screwed. with Supercross comes tons of injuries .our current system just chews up Riders and spits them out it's pretty bad when you're a top 10 rider and you can't stay on a factory team I mean what's wrong with that system. I don't see the outdoors over here in the US getting any better especially for privateers. everyone seems to think They are Expendable but without them there be 20 guys on the gate maybe less. I hate to say it but outdoor motocross in America is shrinking. Even all the local events we go to it's gone down less and less people are doing it and I think kids are getting smarter and seeing the end game realizing they could just move on to other things because Motocross ain't going to pay your bills except for a few of them.
To be fair - it probably has a lot to do with the cost of new bikes...

When they were $5k new, it was much more reasonable than $10k! Then to go out and bash it up... it costs a boatload!

Post a reply to: Team USA: Where do we go from Here

The Latest