California Red sticker program ending

DaveJ
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DaveJ 8/31/2018 9:41am
8/31/2018 9:41am
In all seriousness, some of the biggest gross polluters are gas powered construction equipment and two stroke lawn and garden equipment, closely followed by old cars.
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DaveJ
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DaveJ 8/31/2018 9:43am
8/31/2018 9:43am
And let's not forget that it was the red sticker program that ironically brought about so many open-to-the public private operated MX tracks.
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SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 8/31/2018 11:36am
8/31/2018 11:36am
This whole thing seems like a nail in the coffin for 2 strokes if it goes through. Can TPI 2 strokes even potentially meet the new standards they are proposing? Is the technology viable?

I only ride my YZ on tracks anyway these days, so hopefully Yamaha keeps churning them out, even if "competition only" (a la their Superjets).

Might need to pick up a new 4 stroke soon to get back on trails from time to time. I'll obviously wait to see how far these proposals go. Still a long way off from being law I think, especially in their current state. The test data is completely bullshit and they leave out a lot of stats that make sense in the real world. It's a good thing we have a bunch of good people and groups challenging this and asking questions.
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JM485
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JM485 8/31/2018 12:59pm
8/31/2018 12:59pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
This whole thing seems like a nail in the coffin for 2 strokes if it goes through. Can TPI 2 strokes even potentially meet the new...
This whole thing seems like a nail in the coffin for 2 strokes if it goes through. Can TPI 2 strokes even potentially meet the new standards they are proposing? Is the technology viable?

I only ride my YZ on tracks anyway these days, so hopefully Yamaha keeps churning them out, even if "competition only" (a la their Superjets).

Might need to pick up a new 4 stroke soon to get back on trails from time to time. I'll obviously wait to see how far these proposals go. Still a long way off from being law I think, especially in their current state. The test data is completely bullshit and they leave out a lot of stats that make sense in the real world. It's a good thing we have a bunch of good people and groups challenging this and asking questions.
You realize that new four strokes (aka 250s and 450s) are red sticker right? This isn’t two and four stroke, this is riding or not riding a newer bike at this point.
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SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 8/31/2018 1:10pm
8/31/2018 1:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2018 1:15pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
This whole thing seems like a nail in the coffin for 2 strokes if it goes through. Can TPI 2 strokes even potentially meet the new...
This whole thing seems like a nail in the coffin for 2 strokes if it goes through. Can TPI 2 strokes even potentially meet the new standards they are proposing? Is the technology viable?

I only ride my YZ on tracks anyway these days, so hopefully Yamaha keeps churning them out, even if "competition only" (a la their Superjets).

Might need to pick up a new 4 stroke soon to get back on trails from time to time. I'll obviously wait to see how far these proposals go. Still a long way off from being law I think, especially in their current state. The test data is completely bullshit and they leave out a lot of stats that make sense in the real world. It's a good thing we have a bunch of good people and groups challenging this and asking questions.
JM485 wrote:
You realize that new four strokes (aka 250s and 450s) are red sticker right? This isn’t two and four stroke, this is riding or not riding...
You realize that new four strokes (aka 250s and 450s) are red sticker right? This isn’t two and four stroke, this is riding or not riding a newer bike at this point.
There's a lot more to it than that, actually. Look at the new "categories" and what it would take for future certification. Yes, current red sticker bikes would be grandfathered in, which is great. I'm talking about 2022 and beyond. There's no way 2 strokes will be able to be certified into either category unless the manufacturers feel like dumping a ton of money into new tech (doubtful).

Edit: As far as 4 strokes go, they're already at or really close to being able to be certified under Category 2. EFI has done wonders here. I'm also quite aware of what bikes are being certified as what currently. If any of the manufacturers wanted to pay for it, there would be A LOT more green sticker 4 strokes out there with the current tech (no changes). It's just easier for them to certify as red sticker and call it good.
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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 8/31/2018 2:31pm
8/31/2018 2:31pm
So, I called and talked to Scott Monday– Staff Air Pollution Specialist – Red Sticker Project Lead.

No Tin Foil Hat conspiracy and no Deep State Agenda. The language on slide 14 (of the OP's linked presentation) that states...

CARB Priorities For A Regulatory Proposal
1. Reduce emissions
◦ Eliminate future sales of uncontrolled vehicles

That refers to not allowing any OHMC (Off-Highway Motorcycle) that doesn't conform to the CARB requirements to be allowed on/ridden on/used on "Public Land" (State and Federal land, riding areas...etc.)

Per slide 22 of the same presentation...

Sunset Red Sticker Program
• Eliminate Red Sticker sales – MY2022

So, your "Closed Course Competition Models" that will be sold after 2021 will not be allowed to be ridden on public lands...(beginning 2022) AT ALL. They will be for CLOSED COURSE COMPETITION use only.

DaveJ
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DaveJ 8/31/2018 3:20pm
8/31/2018 3:20pm
Best thing to do it just purchase your bike from out of state. No taxes, no registration. Make it a full time closed course bike.

The states loses on the revenue, we get more money for tires, and we get more riders supporting local tracks.

If you need a "green sticker" bike just get one of the new plated bikes.
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DaveJ
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DaveJ 8/31/2018 3:24pm
8/31/2018 3:24pm
One more thing...

I'm really surprised that there wasn't a class action law suit against California.

Not sure how they can legally collect registration fees on a vehicle and then tell you that you can't ride it.

By comparison, when you have a track-only car, you don't pay registration on it. Even when used in a government owner park.

Seems like every red sticker bike owner should get a refund for each month, on each bike, over the many years, we were not allowed to ride those bikes.
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Supermega1
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Supermega1 8/31/2018 4:07pm
8/31/2018 4:07pm
Allegedly you can buy a Yamaha WR450 that is EPA compliant and for around $125 turn it into a FX (non-compliant). All it takes is an ECU and a throttle stop screw.



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H4L 8/31/2018 4:12pm
8/31/2018 4:12pm
DaveJ wrote:
One more thing... I'm really surprised that there wasn't a class action law suit against California. Not sure how they can legally collect registration fees on...
One more thing...

I'm really surprised that there wasn't a class action law suit against California.

Not sure how they can legally collect registration fees on a vehicle and then tell you that you can't ride it.

By comparison, when you have a track-only car, you don't pay registration on it. Even when used in a government owner park.

Seems like every red sticker bike owner should get a refund for each month, on each bike, over the many years, we were not allowed to ride those bikes.
I like your logic. Have an 02 & 03 CR2 which has basically the same engine (emissions) yet I'm only able to ride the 02 all yr. long. I pay the same $52 every other yr. for registration on both models, but can't ride the 03 all yr. at OHV parks. I've asked the DMV this question & they weren't able to give me an answer. I've let them know that they should be charging less for the the red sticker bikes since they can only be ridden about half the year.
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tunedlength
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tunedlength 8/31/2018 4:32pm
8/31/2018 4:32pm
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Good thing i just bought an Alta Grinning
Yeah? well just wait until ARB starts to phase out things that create excessive airborne particulate (AKA dust).
Wont make any difference if your bike is powered by a IC motor that burns 10 GPH or on an extension chord from a windmill.
If it creates dust it has to go.
Regional haze is the next challenge to our sport.
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brocster
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brocster 8/31/2018 6:50pm
8/31/2018 6:50pm
The people that create this shit are out of their goddam mind... I think it’s really their plan to run people out of this state to free up the freeways so they can sleep and still get to work on time. The insanity astounds and the lazy fuggs always choose the low hanging fruit. They would never touch transportation because they use and abuse it. Planes, trains and automobiles
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Ted722
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Ted722 8/31/2018 6:53pm
8/31/2018 6:53pm
TeamGreen wrote:
So, I called and talked to Scott Monday– Staff Air Pollution Specialist – Red Sticker Project Lead. No Tin Foil Hat conspiracy and no Deep State...
So, I called and talked to Scott Monday– Staff Air Pollution Specialist – Red Sticker Project Lead.

No Tin Foil Hat conspiracy and no Deep State Agenda. The language on slide 14 (of the OP's linked presentation) that states...

CARB Priorities For A Regulatory Proposal
1. Reduce emissions
◦ Eliminate future sales of uncontrolled vehicles

That refers to not allowing any OHMC (Off-Highway Motorcycle) that doesn't conform to the CARB requirements to be allowed on/ridden on/used on "Public Land" (State and Federal land, riding areas...etc.)

Per slide 22 of the same presentation...

Sunset Red Sticker Program
• Eliminate Red Sticker sales – MY2022

So, your "Closed Course Competition Models" that will be sold after 2021 will not be allowed to be ridden on public lands...(beginning 2022) AT ALL. They will be for CLOSED COURSE COMPETITION use only.

How about National Forest land/trails Manny? (sorry if it’s already been mentioned).
endurox
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endurox 8/31/2018 7:28pm
8/31/2018 7:28pm
First straws, now no red stickers. Glad I escaped the PRC years ago.
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KurtJ99
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KurtJ99 8/31/2018 9:34pm
8/31/2018 9:34pm
tunedlength wrote:
Yeah? well just wait until ARB starts to phase out things that create excessive airborne particulate (AKA dust). Wont make any difference if your bike is...
Yeah? well just wait until ARB starts to phase out things that create excessive airborne particulate (AKA dust).
Wont make any difference if your bike is powered by a IC motor that burns 10 GPH or on an extension chord from a windmill.
If it creates dust it has to go.
Regional haze is the next challenge to our sport.
I seem to recall ride days at Carnegie that were restricted because of dust and other environmental concerns. If you want the bleeding edge of environmental restrictions on OHV look to CA.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 8/31/2018 9:37pm
8/31/2018 9:37pm
Does anyone actually follow these sticker rules? Not growing up in CA, I don’t understand.
Just south of Paradise... 9/1/2018 12:09am
9/1/2018 12:09am
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
Does anyone actually follow these sticker rules? Not growing up in CA, I don’t understand.
I live in far Northern California where you can ride red sticker bikes year round in most places. You will get a fairly expensive ticket if you get caught without the OHV sticker. You think California is run by crazy people now, just wait until Gavin Newsom is Governor. People complain about the cost of living here, but then go out and keep electing the same morons not realizing or caring that so many of Californias stupid policies are why things are so expensive in the first place, from gas all the way down to housing to a large extent. A few thousand dirt bikes running each day is making a measurable difference in emissions in a state of 40 million people? Really? These laws and proposals don't have to make any sense, it is all about controlling people.
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Moto96
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Moto96 9/1/2018 9:02am
9/1/2018 9:02am
EFI 2 strokes have better than proposed CARB 2022 cleanliness now which is the standard all OEMs use.

You can check this out at any boat dealer. HP/CC, 2 strokes are cleaner than 4 strokes.
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DirtDgr
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DirtDgr 9/1/2018 9:06am
9/1/2018 9:06am
BAMX wrote:
Maybe we could just take the 1 million plus illegal aliens that the Governor gave drivers licenses to with their mostly older higher polluting vehicles off...
Maybe we could just take the 1 million plus illegal aliens that the Governor gave drivers licenses to with their mostly older higher polluting vehicles off the road and we would have way better air quality.
JM485 wrote:
When you consider that this has a lot more to do with control rather than emissions it begins to make sense why logical and effective solutions...
When you consider that this has a lot more to do with control rather than emissions it begins to make sense why logical and effective solutions aren't considered. Especially one that would hurt their voting base. . .

If this weren't a government agency they would likely consult with members of the industry in question and come to some sort of reasonable plan to move forward with, but instead they decided to continue burying their heads in the sand and making complete asses out of themselves with reports like this that leave huge gaps in the data and look completely asinine to anyone with a hint of practical knowledge about ohvs.

Lets start with the fact that they're comparing dirtbikes that are ridden probably once a week on average for about two hours total run time, to a clean running 2018 model year vehicle with so much smog equipment it can hardly breath, that is likely run for multiple hours per day. Or we can begin to pick apart the fact that they've conveniently left out the real figure that matters, how much of the TOTAL emissions pie that ohvs are responsible for. I think anyone who can walk and chew gum at the same time can probably determine why that was overlooked. . .
BAMX wrote:
I would say that it is more about BS politics than control. Recent activities like plastic straw laws and getting rid of bail for criminals has...
I would say that it is more about BS politics than control. Recent activities like plastic straw laws and getting rid of bail for criminals has me wondering if they are just pandering to the far extreme of their base. If it were for environmental reasons as stated, they would get rid of illegal alien driving. That would make an instant massive impact.

As for the bikes being used once a week for a few hours, I would guess that you are way high on that estimate. Most of the older bikes sit in the garage all but a few weekends a year only to be drug out for Thanksgiving, New Years and Presidents day weekends at the desert. The only reason that they are still registered is that the DMV will automatically send you to collections if you don't.
Ansolutely. I have 15+ bikes. My newest, 2018 450 FX has an hour on it in a year! Sad yes. All the others range from 1974 Husky to Maico to early 80’s YZ. All stickered. Been sitting for years.

Yes they will take money right out of your bank account to pay for late registration! Happened to me.
DirtDgr
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DirtDgr 9/1/2018 9:09am
9/1/2018 9:09am
Oh and I just bought my daughter a brand new Ttr 125. Comes with a shiney new RED sticker!
Moto96
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Moto96 9/1/2018 9:18am
9/1/2018 9:18am
DaveJ wrote:
In all seriousness, some of the biggest gross polluters are gas powered construction equipment and two stroke lawn and garden equipment, closely followed by old cars.
That could be, but Im sure the amount of pollution from a leaf blower or a lawn mower in a years use is less than a single guy in Los Angeles with a 2 hour 1 way commute in stop and go traffic for 1 day.

Similarly, all the recreational boaters in the world, in 1 full year make less pollution than 1 cargo ship burning cheap dirty diesel in a 1 way trip across the ocean.
The amount of fuel they use is insane and that shits barely better than heating oil if it is at all.

Big polluters: one massive container ship equals 50 million cars

The low grade bunker fuel used by the worlds 90,000 cargo ships contains up to 2,000 times the amount of sulfur compared to diesel fuel used in automobiles. These ships operate virtually non stop, 365 days.

https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/
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Bry145
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Bry145 9/1/2018 9:44am
9/1/2018 9:44am
Too many people results in too much pollution. Who would have thunk it?

Thankfully, birth rates are going off a cliff. There will be less pollution in time.

Imagine if we didn't have a Baby Boom after WWII and immigration laws were enforced. Holy smokes would we have a lot of riding areas, and dare I say housing may be quite affordable.

Thanks previous generations!



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OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 9/1/2018 10:18am
9/1/2018 10:18am
While I lived in San Diego in the late '80's they put in a two lane HOV roadway in between the existing north and south bound lanes of I5. It was open for north bound traffic in the mornings and then open for south bound traffic in the afternoon to help funnel people to and from their north county jobs. I was working in Rancho Bernardo at the time and could use these lanes since I commuted on a motorcycle. There were very few cars on the road though as it seemed that very few people carpooled so they typically clogged the I5 on workdays. The police were routinely nabbing cage drivers running with blow up dolls or mannequins trying to get access to these lanes.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 9/1/2018 12:25pm
9/1/2018 12:25pm
TeamGreen wrote:
So, I called and talked to Scott Monday– Staff Air Pollution Specialist – Red Sticker Project Lead. No Tin Foil Hat conspiracy and no Deep State...
So, I called and talked to Scott Monday– Staff Air Pollution Specialist – Red Sticker Project Lead.

No Tin Foil Hat conspiracy and no Deep State Agenda. The language on slide 14 (of the OP's linked presentation) that states...

CARB Priorities For A Regulatory Proposal
1. Reduce emissions
◦ Eliminate future sales of uncontrolled vehicles

That refers to not allowing any OHMC (Off-Highway Motorcycle) that doesn't conform to the CARB requirements to be allowed on/ridden on/used on "Public Land" (State and Federal land, riding areas...etc.)

Per slide 22 of the same presentation...

Sunset Red Sticker Program
• Eliminate Red Sticker sales – MY2022

So, your "Closed Course Competition Models" that will be sold after 2021 will not be allowed to be ridden on public lands...(beginning 2022) AT ALL. They will be for CLOSED COURSE COMPETITION use only.

Ted722 wrote:
How about National Forest land/trails Manny? (sorry if it’s already been mentioned).
Public Lands includes all govt controlled land for use by California controlled vehicles. USFS, BLM...
All of it.

However, various local LEO’s really don’t give a flying f~{
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Hallzilla
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Hallzilla 9/1/2018 1:36pm
9/1/2018 1:36pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
Does anyone actually follow these sticker rules? Not growing up in CA, I don’t understand.
Let's ride mañana and I'll tell ya all about it. You know where I'll be
KurtJ99
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KurtJ99 9/1/2018 2:28pm
9/1/2018 2:28pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2018 2:29pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
Does anyone actually follow these sticker rules? Not growing up in CA, I don’t understand.
Here is how serious they take it. I had a 2003 CRF450, first year they red stickered. DMV had sent me a green sticker by mistake. Just as I went into Carnegie OHV, a ranger stopped me and removed my green sticker. He was about to write me up for fraudulently using a green sticker, but I was lucky and also had my registration renewal with matching ID to the sticker. Ranger wasn’t being a jerk, just real serious about enforcement.
If I hadn’t had my registration with me I’m sure I’d had a ticket and would have not been able to ride.
GeorgiePorgie 9/2/2018 12:20am
9/2/2018 12:20am Edited Date/Time 9/2/2018 12:21am
Where will all the bros go to ride ? Or what will all the “bro bro bros” actually ride ?

Also, if a ranger comes into your riding area and you just pop a wheelie.....do they stop chasing you? who needs a sticker now ?
oldblood
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oldblood 9/2/2018 1:07pm
9/2/2018 1:07pm
The lefts end game is to not have any dirt bikes riding in forest lands, or anywhere, or for people to live outside of urban areas.
Dirt bikes of any kind don't fit anywhere in their long term vision.
It's just a step by step process of control. Give the voters their weed and citizenship, get reelected, and continue toward the goal.
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BobPA
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BobPA 9/2/2018 1:24pm
9/2/2018 1:24pm
Come to PA bros. I rode my 300XC to work on Friday, plated and all. We have no silly stickers or rules telling us we can’t ride bikes we bought.
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oldblood
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oldblood 9/2/2018 1:45pm
9/2/2018 1:45pm
oldblood wrote:
The lefts end game is to not have any dirt bikes riding in forest lands, or anywhere, or for people to live outside of urban areas...
The lefts end game is to not have any dirt bikes riding in forest lands, or anywhere, or for people to live outside of urban areas.
Dirt bikes of any kind don't fit anywhere in their long term vision.
It's just a step by step process of control. Give the voters their weed and citizenship, get reelected, and continue toward the goal.
Originally part of the green sticker money was for opening new riding areas, but instead they reduced them and hired a bunch of park employees and administrators.
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