Heart rates?

1/26/2018 1:51pm
This was a year and half ago, but one day i logged my heart rate over 2 or 3 sprint laps at 212 Land which is at 4000ft. Probably a bit better these days.



aees
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1/26/2018 1:56pm
jeffro503 wrote:
So....just to get an idea here. I'm trying to train for 25min long motos. Should I keep the higher intensity training going for 50 minutes...
So....just to get an idea here. I'm trying to train for 25min long motos. Should I keep the higher intensity training going for 50 minutes , with heart rates between 85 - 100% for most of it....or back it down to 75 - 85% for a longer duration? Like an hour and 15 minutes?

My goal is to be able to go a lap or so at about 85% and then ride as hard as I can to the finish.
aees wrote:
You are not able to run 50min at 90%+, it is almost impossible. It is more likely you are high zone 3 or maybe zone 4...
You are not able to run 50min at 90%+, it is almost impossible. It is more likely you are high zone 3 or maybe zone 4. First determine you max HR properly.

Motocross is exercised at 90-100% heart rate for 10-30min depending on the length of you race. Heart is a muscle, and it shall be trained to what you will use it for. Seen a lot of marathon runners doing many 100m sprints? Or Sprinters doing 3h running sessions for training?

The issue is, you can not, and should not do more than 3 times a week at 90%+ levels on treadmill for example. Your body (muscles other than heart and nerve system) will break down over longer periods than that. That is build up periods for 3-4 months is ok. After that you should be at maximum 1 session per week to maintain.

At those sessions, you should get 10min (minimum), but better 15min total time in zone 90%+. How you do it you can vary. That means, if you do intervals you dont start the clock before you pass 90% heart rate and then you do 1-5min at that 90%+ (whatever you can sustain).

As an example, it takes me about 2min to get up to 90%+ HR on treadmill (i slowly increase speed during that time on treadmill to avoid lactic acid building up to early), then i start the clock when i pass 180bpm (my max is 200). I typical stay at 9-10mph for 2-4min. Then rest 2-3min and go at it again.

An alternative if you forget your HRM or dont have one, is the popular 4x4min intervals on rowing, treadmill or bicycle. But absolute best is to have HRM to go by. Those should be done at 90% effort level (not HR level, effort). But it becomes a bit subjective.

A typical week of training with no MX riding could look like:
Day 1 Running intervals (15min@90%+)
Day 2 Legs at gym
Day 3 Rest (walk 10-15k steps), or easy cardio at zone 2 (Fat burn)
Day 4 Core with 30sec rest between sets
Day 5 Uper body, 30 sec rest between sets
Day 6 Rest (walk 10-15k steps),

Start all days with 10-20min warm up at zone 1-2. The 30sec rest between sets will get you ~1-2h in the gym at zone 2-3. In general, dont waste energy on specific low intensity running or bicycling at zone 1-3, or even 4, unless you are after burning fat.

If you are on the bike some weeks, you remove the intervals first, then legs. Keep the core training as long as you can. You can also add core on MX bike, that is ride standing up for last 10-20min session on track.
Tuna wrote:
Lots of great info in your post. Even if you can get 20 min of cardio in 3 times a week where you are at least...
Lots of great info in your post.
Even if you can get 20 min of cardio in 3 times a week where you are at least 60 to 70%, that will sustain your general cardio health and level.
Agree, it is easier to maintain it and you stress the body less with low intensity. You also has to consider injury and sickness. Screwing up a muscle in your leg can take away several weeks of training. You also easier gets cold if you stress the body heavily.

Many that do 6-10 workouts per week, end up with the same amount of workouts (or hours) on year to year basis because of injury and sickness. And more important, maybe they where able to get many hours more in - but since they fall back some weeks every 3-4 months due to sickness or injury, they loose out on overall cardio since a healthy person have had a continues, slow and steady increase in fitness.

Easier for younger people that heals quicker and produce less or no lactic acid when they train.
aees
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1/26/2018 2:01pm
This was a year and half ago, but one day i logged my heart rate over 2 or 3 sprint laps at 212 Land which is...
This was a year and half ago, but one day i logged my heart rate over 2 or 3 sprint laps at 212 Land which is at 4000ft. Probably a bit better these days.



When i race MX, it takes me 60sec to go from ~120bpm to 190, then i stabilize at 194-197 for 20-25min depending on moto length. My max is 200bpm. Also depends on which type of track and conditions.

Funny thing is, i cant run for more than 3-5min at 180+ before lactic acid puts a stop to it Smile
aees
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1/26/2018 2:08pm
Here is one example





The Shop

hamncheeze
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1/26/2018 4:26pm
Good stuff in here from aees and Tuna.

Just my opinion, as a long-retired MX racer (1978-1988) but I think that cycling is probably the best aerobic training for MX, along with maybe the rowing ergometer. Running is great, IF your body can handle the pounding. For most motocross guys over the age of 35 that is probably questionable. Cycling does not beat you up the same, plus you can do super easy recovery riding on a road bike. And don't discount walking as training either. A good brisk walk of an hour or more is very beneficial and does not hammer the body.

An important thing to remember is that aerobic conditioning is like a pyramid. You have to build the lower intensity base over a longer period of time, before doing the high intensity training. The fitness you gain from high intensity aerobic training is gained very quickly, and lost very quickly without maintenance. The base fitness you build over years, that is not lost very quickly at all.

For the winter months, I think a MX guy should first focus on longer sessions at lower intensities. If you race and do 2 20 min motos per day then I think you should start out by working up to one 2-3 hour bike ride per week at 60-70% intensity. With darkness and weather for most people it might involve doing 2 mid-week days indoors for say an hour and then getting in the longer ride on the weekend. Don't worry about intervals, or anything specific. Just build the base up. After 10 weeks or so, then cut back the longer ride but work in 2x20 minute intervals where you are going 80-85%. This is largely know to be "sweet spot" training which is extended effort at the high end of your aerobic capacity without going into lactic accumulation. These 2x20 type of workouts can be 2x per week max with at least 2 days between. Then after 4-6 weeks take a full rest week from cycling and then start doing the high intensity intervals where you are anaerobic 2x week. 1x1, 2x2 sets of 3-5 with at least 20 min of noodling between sets and 3 sets max. Finish with at least 20 min of riding stupidly easy. Don't overdo these, and if you do the first interval and feel awful that is normal but if the second one feels worse then stop and just ride easy for 30 min and go rest.

Of course any MXer will be riding the dirt bike and probably doing some strength training, so don't try to become a category 1 cyclist. You can ride a road bike 5 hours per week and get very fit for motocross. Don't get suckered into the more is better disease that endurance athletes find themselves suckered into (trust me, I have ended up deep in the box from overtraining, to the point where I will have some health issues dog me for the rest of my life as a result). Be prepared to work hard, but be smart and if in doubt and feeling fatigued err on the side of less. In the long run you will be much better off.
jeffro503
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1/26/2018 6:23pm
Thank yoiu guys for all the highly detailed info you have given me here! Seriously , it's very much appreciated!

Couple questions......

1.) How does a guy like me find out what his maximum HR is? Wouldn't that vary from person to person? I guess the old 220 rule is more of a " ballpark" number , more then anything else.

2.) It sounds like I have been going a little overkill on my HIIT cardio workouts. Instead of damn near killing myself 3 - 4 times a week doing these , I should take a step back and only do it once a week , along with like 2 other easier 70%-80% longer duration workout? ( My cardio is Running and spin bike ).

Side note : I'm very confident in my strength training for the sport. It's the cardio stuff I needed help with here. I started training cardio again around the end of Sept...so I am almost 4 months in and I think my base is getting pretty good. My only worry was " Not hitting it hard enough " , and then being behind the 8 ball come race season.

I have no problem doing 1 - 1-1/2hr cardio sessions at 70%-80% , and if anything , those are going to be easier to get through compared to what I was doing I think. Doing the HIIT 3 - 4 times a week was starting to wear me down.
hamncheeze
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1/26/2018 6:48pm
Jeffro, for your questions above:

1) The easiest way is to get warmed up and then run up stairs if you have a flight of stairs that is a couple minutes in length. The combination of running plus gravity will get you to max quite easily. Even then, it's not an absolute as I hinted before, as it will vary from person to person. Another good method for HR training, if you are doing it on a bicycle, is to go out and do a "time trial effort" for 25 miles. Find a flat road, and basically ride as fast as you can sustain for 25 miles. Your average HR for that will be right around your anaerobic (lactate) threshold, the point where you start accumulate lactic acid. You can then base your training zones off that number and not worry about max HR.

2) Yes definitely you are doing a bit too much by the sounds of it, in terms of intervals. Again, building the base before hammering yourself with hard intervals is important. So focus on getting in 5-6 hours of less intense cardio for a couple of months, then build up the intervals while cutting down the hours.

Feel free to DM me if you want.
cable
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1/26/2018 8:13pm
After racing moto for 20 plus years, I learned more about training and the body in 1 year of mountain bike racing..
im 46, 172 lbs. resting heart rate is usually around 40, max is around 194(riding up ski hills)
If I get serious on moto again i will-
plan my meals two days before and after.
only workout using 100% one day per week
moto practice/train at 80% low heart rate. more laps than sprint laps.
do a nice warmup before practice the morning of a race. (the most important thing i would try)
refuel during the race day with planned meals

I wished i would have raced cycling when i was about 18-25 to learn. but i was riding the mx bike 3-5 times per week.
kiwifan
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1/26/2018 8:18pm
I also have a Garmin, my average resting heart rate varies between 45 and 49. When playing squash (training or playing competitively), which I do 4-5 times a week, I peak at 180 most times, gives me a great cardio base for MX
Lynch
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1/27/2018 12:19am
hamncheeze wrote:
Jeffro, for your questions above: 1) The easiest way is to get warmed up and then run up stairs if you have a flight of stairs...
Jeffro, for your questions above:

1) The easiest way is to get warmed up and then run up stairs if you have a flight of stairs that is a couple minutes in length. The combination of running plus gravity will get you to max quite easily. Even then, it's not an absolute as I hinted before, as it will vary from person to person. Another good method for HR training, if you are doing it on a bicycle, is to go out and do a "time trial effort" for 25 miles. Find a flat road, and basically ride as fast as you can sustain for 25 miles. Your average HR for that will be right around your anaerobic (lactate) threshold, the point where you start accumulate lactic acid. You can then base your training zones off that number and not worry about max HR.

2) Yes definitely you are doing a bit too much by the sounds of it, in terms of intervals. Again, building the base before hammering yourself with hard intervals is important. So focus on getting in 5-6 hours of less intense cardio for a couple of months, then build up the intervals while cutting down the hours.

Feel free to DM me if you want.
Sent you a dm Woohoo
1/27/2018 12:37am
cable wrote:
After racing moto for 20 plus years, I learned more about training and the body in 1 year of mountain bike racing.. im 46, 172 lbs...
After racing moto for 20 plus years, I learned more about training and the body in 1 year of mountain bike racing..
im 46, 172 lbs. resting heart rate is usually around 40, max is around 194(riding up ski hills)
If I get serious on moto again i will-
plan my meals two days before and after.
only workout using 100% one day per week
moto practice/train at 80% low heart rate. more laps than sprint laps.
do a nice warmup before practice the morning of a race. (the most important thing i would try)
refuel during the race day with planned meals

I wished i would have raced cycling when i was about 18-25 to learn. but i was riding the mx bike 3-5 times per week.
Your story is so similar to mine!

I raced mx from 9yrs to 26 yrs.

Done nothing for 10 years and got fat!

Now ride & race road bicycles. Ive learnt more in my short time in bicycles than I ever did in MX. I too wish I raced bicycles all that time ago, what I have learnt would definitely have helped my MX when I was serious about it.
aees
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1/27/2018 1:46am
hamncheeze wrote:
Jeffro, for your questions above: 1) The easiest way is to get warmed up and then run up stairs if you have a flight of stairs...
Jeffro, for your questions above:

1) The easiest way is to get warmed up and then run up stairs if you have a flight of stairs that is a couple minutes in length. The combination of running plus gravity will get you to max quite easily. Even then, it's not an absolute as I hinted before, as it will vary from person to person. Another good method for HR training, if you are doing it on a bicycle, is to go out and do a "time trial effort" for 25 miles. Find a flat road, and basically ride as fast as you can sustain for 25 miles. Your average HR for that will be right around your anaerobic (lactate) threshold, the point where you start accumulate lactic acid. You can then base your training zones off that number and not worry about max HR.

2) Yes definitely you are doing a bit too much by the sounds of it, in terms of intervals. Again, building the base before hammering yourself with hard intervals is important. So focus on getting in 5-6 hours of less intense cardio for a couple of months, then build up the intervals while cutting down the hours.

Feel free to DM me if you want.
Problem with running in steep stairs or hills is that your legs will give up before you reach maximum heartrate. I would not reach more than 90% of my heart rate doing that kind of exercise. Same as sitting on a exercise bike and putting the resistance to maximum and then try to reach max HR.
1/27/2018 2:28am
I am struggling getting my rate up on my rower vs where I was able to reach road cycling, is this common ? I though with the rower I would achieve a higher rate as I was using upper body as well . Any thoughts ?
Tuna
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1/27/2018 4:48am
I am struggling getting my rate up on my rower vs where I was able to reach road cycling, is this common ? I though with...
I am struggling getting my rate up on my rower vs where I was able to reach road cycling, is this common ? I though with the rower I would achieve a higher rate as I was using upper body as well . Any thoughts ?
Change up your body position and technique first. See what happens. So often I see people on a Concept 2 fighting the machine and not looking smooth at all.
526
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1/27/2018 4:48am Edited Date/Time 1/27/2018 4:52am
Wow great info !!!! I am so interested in learning more about my HR, I want to geek out on itSmile How or what method do you use To check your resting HR?

I have seen 208 Max HR riding moto and the more ride moto the more the Max HR decreases, I thought I was getting more efficient but apparently I was just getting in better shape.

I have a M400 Polar
Tuna
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1/27/2018 5:11am
526 wrote:
Wow great info !!!! I am so interested in learning more about my HR, I want to geek out on it:) How or what method do...
Wow great info !!!! I am so interested in learning more about my HR, I want to geek out on itSmile How or what method do you use To check your resting HR?

I have seen 208 Max HR riding moto and the more ride moto the more the Max HR decreases, I thought I was getting more efficient but apparently I was just getting in better shape.

I have a M400 Polar
Count your heartbeats over 10 seconds and multiply by 6.
hellion
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1/27/2018 5:30am
I'm certainly no expert, but I have used a heart rate monitor sporadically throughout the last decade. The thing that is driving me nuts, because of Craig's HR on tv, is that many people are using this information to compare between each other. HR data is really only relevant to each individual. Everyone has different max values and the 220 minus your age is almost as outdated as the BMI the doctors office uses (to tell me I'm obese at 6'3" and 205 and very little fat).

An HR monitor should be used to create a baseline. See if you can improve your resting HR, and to a lesser extent your max. Also, as your heart gets stronger, you should see quicker recovery after hard efforts. And of course, it should be used to train in specific zones once you know your own personal max etc.

I have a friend who at 55 can get into the 200's easily and another who can't get over 165. The one in the 200's does no training and is pretty out of shape, the other guy pedals all the time and is a beast. Comparing max between people is just silly. Hopefully, somebody will educate the talking heads on tv and the podcasts too, especially now that all this data is going to be seen.
Markee
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1/27/2018 5:47am
Anyone clicking this thread that is pretty new to fitness/higher end fitness would greatly benefit checking out Coach Robb Beams podcast he and the guys at DMXS just started.

They are up to episode 10 at about 1 hour long. Great info. The goal in the podcast is/was to start out simple, back to the basics. They do not jump in to lactic acid threshold training or focus in on any one training discipline.

As a guy that trains 5-6 days a week I still get a lot out of the shows. Check them out!
1/27/2018 8:04am
I ride my bicycle 4-5 days a week, anywhere in the 150-180 range. The most I've hit is 190 doing some sprints up/down a large bridge (we don't have too many of those hills in SouthFL).

Everytime I ride MX, I always hit 200-203 my first moto. Don't know why, but as I go throughout the day, my max and average gets to around 180-182. Tried everything, but I always "blow up" every first ride; same with enduros and harescrambles.
Bradj70
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1/27/2018 10:00am
I have a Garmin Forerunner 235, Its okay but i don't trust the numbers 100%. That said is shows my Resting Heart Rate (RHR) at 46 usually, but i think realistically its in the 50's. Also i've had runs where my breathing is dang near maxxed and im hauling a good clip, but my Watch will only read like 160 150 BPM then other times im breathing heavy but got room to push more and it shows my BPM at 188. I use it as a rough guide but mostly pay attention to my breathing, i will push into the zone where im moving as much air as i possibly can and can feel the fatigue slowing me down for about 10-20sec then back off to a fast but controlled breathing and sustain for duration of run maybe about 20min. I do belive Heart Rate training is where it's at though, its a way to accuratley guage your effort, and I also like how that one guy posted about your heart being a muscle and how you cant overtrain it. 1 or two max day s a week and the rest should be in a comfort work range, pay attention to your body if your getting worse in your lifiting weight or running effort maybe rest is what you need?

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