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Even at the mud races he has raced this year???
I don't think I have ever seen that type of failure, ever. Let alone twice in one day.
Doesn't sound right to me.
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I swung by the Showa US shop today to drop something off and the techs there, one of which tests with Honda even, were all chatting about it. We all agreed on what the likely-hood of the failure was, they all figured it was the collar as well and understood how it could've happened. They also all agreed that there wouldn't be much to do inbetween Moto's without a completely redesigned parts. Although its competition between KYB and Showa, all those guys said they felt bad for the KYB techs cause in that situation, there wasn't much they could do but hope it made it through moto two.
As of right now they haven't come up with a fix for the problem but I'd imagine they could redesign the collar and run a 260mm spring like the Yamaha
Why not put a simple hose clamp around it to make it much harder to spread apart? You'd have to slap on some black tape to keep it from loosening and falling down but that's a two minute job at most.
Maybe there's not a flat section on the collar or the worm mechanism on the hose clamp hits something? Then I'd drill a couple of holes on each side of the collar slot and tie wire the damn thing so it couldn't spread. Damn man, it's not rocket science.
To prevent mud from packing I'd cut an inner tube and stretch it over the spring coils, probably only the ones where there's exposed shaft.
Finally, to rule out coil bind I'd have the whole team sit on the bike to bottom it out and check for space between coils (at race preload). Under those conditions, if I didn't see around 0.10" average between coils I'd change springs.
I'm seeing a trend towards shorter springs to make them lighter and more lively. However, some lazy aftermarket mfgs don't want to redesign the spring and just wind them tighter (making them shorter) which reduces the travel before they coil bind. The better way is to reduce the number of active coils to keep the same travel. However, this requires a redesign of the spring as a smaller dia wire must be used to achieve the same spring rate. On the other hand, fewer turns means each coil is being stressed more. Combine more stress with thinner wire and you could have a broken spring. Like almost everything else its a compromise.
As for protecting the spring itself, most teams have neoprene sleeve they'all slip over the springs. Not sure if there was or wasn't one in this situation.
The springs in questioned are supplied by KYB directly.
Bottom line, stop the initial distortion and the part would not have yielded and eventually cracked in two.
Even KYB can't be responsible for a spring that coil binds due to excessive preloading. It doesn't take much either, sometimes as little as 5-10mm more preload than the shock was "set-up" for. If it was set-up for dry conditions I could see them adding enough preload to be worried.
Got me thinking again about the collar design. All the past split collars I've seen are thicker and rather low profile. Low profile enough to allow shock body displaced dirt/mud to pass through the gaps between spring coils or body even at full compression.
The "cup" collar profile described in this instance is different in many ways. Because of the cup height, the primary line of action is much more shallow (compared to the low profile collar), so the collar can be made thinner to save weight. However, the height effectively reduces the "escape" routes for any displaced dirt/mud (fluid). This leaves the fluid no choice but to increase its pressure until something gives or breaks. The height of the "cup" is what does it in as and fluid pressure has a much greater surface area to work on, most of it in the direction that forces the cup to spread outwards. Up to now this secondary load path (hoop loads) probably haven't even been considered by the design engineers.
Sorry, I did cause and corrective action for our Failure Review Board at Boeing for many years.
You guys don't pay enough attention.
1. Most here are the best suspension experts around and refuse to believe ML512 who has had more experience in suspension than everyone combined that log onto Vital...and then some
2. Vitards think that if a factory shock has a failure then a) the linkage is the problem (design flaw apparently) and/or b) production bikes are now crap (despite it not happening anytime elsewhere, and prod bikes not using factory KYB shocks)
This place is such an education.
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Im the guy that says it can go in the sky LOL
2) We Vitards are having a hard time believing that the Honda Team.....the all powerful most professional money is no object distracted by a failing F1 engine package been designing suspension for 40 years made it thru the whole AMA SX and American Outdoor Series for 35 years without failure......could be so stupid as to design something that could fail that easy!
Please do forgive us for having some confidence in them, from now on, Factory Suspension guys at Honda, are idiots!
Travel to Europe, blow 2 races on the world stage=pack your tool box and here's your final check, in the real world.
"Another big change is the location of the airbox—it’s now positioned high up in the frame. This allows for a straight shot of air to the combustion area; the intake track no longer has to wiggle around the upper shock body, which is also shorter in length to compensate for the shock mount being positioned 39mm lower than before)"
Could the bottom shock mount being in a different enough location to cause the failure in the mud on the Honda of KYB equipment that has never had this failure in other applications? Twice. Likely mud packing forcing the retaining ring open.
(can't embed help please?)
Call it a conspiracy if you want, obvious is obvious.
Vitard's are well aware of the linkage mounts on the frame breaking loose in some cases. And I'm sure I don't have to, but I will mention Roczen's Vegas crash and Gasjer's ejection. Connect the dots.
I actually appreciate the design from a consumer standpoint because it makes changing rear springs super easy. All you have to do is loosen the preload rings, remove the collar, and slide the spring off.
If not and they had to use what had failed you know that had no chance.
It happened so early in the first moto,like before a lot of mud had time to dobb in there I bet it was fubar from practice and just hanging by a thread.
Secondly Mr. Tin Foil hat, explain, please explain in detail how any of this has to do with Roczen or Gajser's crashes? You're reaching so far on this one it's not even funny.
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