Seely's suspension, is it an air shock?

pilotdude
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pilotdude 10/2/2017 2:31pm
10/2/2017 2:31pm
Robgvx wrote:
Here's what happened. The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a...
Here's what happened.

The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a stone got forced into the split/opening in the spring collar, forcing it to either break or bend, (I didn't clarify that). The collar came out so the spring just slid down to the linkage. Hence the partial collapse.

Freak incident, which unfortunately happened twice.

Seeley used his own suspension (Kayaba). Different to the stuff the GP guys run.

That's my understanding.
philG wrote:
The info i received used the word 'clip' not collar.. seeing the shock, and pics as i did when i finally got home, that makes a...
The info i received used the word 'clip' not collar.. seeing the shock, and pics as i did when i finally got home, that makes a lot more sense. I have to say , looking at the above pic, i thought , as ML512 did, that it had the wire retainer, which would have failed sooner for the same reason.

Glad you put it to bed.
Phil my question to you is, after the first failure, was there any action taken or could have been taken to attempt to prevent this from happening a second time? If there was a possible action, and it was not taken, why not?
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philG 10/2/2017 3:09pm
10/2/2017 3:09pm
pilotdude wrote:
Phil my question to you is, after the first failure, was there any action taken or could have been taken to attempt to prevent this from...
Phil my question to you is, after the first failure, was there any action taken or could have been taken to attempt to prevent this from happening a second time? If there was a possible action, and it was not taken, why not?
Only what i got from the great coverage by MXVice.

The bottom of the shock was filled with foam ( the stuff you stick under bash plates and the like) to try and keep it mud out, it lasted longer but still wasnt any good..

https://soundcloud.com/mxvice-com/cole-seely-2017-motocross-of-nations



The team would have had an hour and a half tops to sort it, by the time it was cleaned and stripped.

Obviously the dampers we ran on WRC were bigger with much bigger springs, and a platform that deep would have had radial holes round it,so it didnt pack with mud, cant find a picture on this laptop, may have a CAD model somewhere.
Underground 10/2/2017 3:12pm
10/2/2017 3:12pm
mark911 wrote:
I suspect a couple of things. 1) The spring he ran was close to coil binding to start with. Add in some mud between coils and...
I suspect a couple of things. 1) The spring he ran was close to coil binding to start with. Add in some mud between coils and you have a condition that'll blow out any retaining system. 2) Some riders today are running little if not any preload to the point that the shock rattles between the perches. This can beat the heck out of a retainer. 3)combination of 1&2. I'm surprised that after the first failure they couldn't remedy the situation.
philG wrote:
I was thinking the amount of preload is a factor, i havent seen spring rattling,but i have seen guys turning springs by hand to increase preload...
I was thinking the amount of preload is a factor, i havent seen spring rattling,but i have seen guys turning springs by hand to increase preload which says they arent loaded much, and the trend of running a harder spring with less preload does seem to be more in fashion.
I've been a fan of harder rear springs for MX because the shock isn't loaded up as much. As you say you can adjust them by hand as they don't have as much initial preload. Go out to a sand track that's fairly whooped out and watch a guy go around with different weights. The lighter spring all wound up likes to extend a lot harder and faster compared to the heavier spring. The heavier spring also has a bit more float in the initial travel and isn't as hard initially. Yamaha's came with lighter rears and I guess that's why you get the term Yamahop
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kkawboy14 10/2/2017 3:16pm
10/2/2017 3:16pm
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
kiwifan wrote:
they use a different shock
Different or not I'm saying there is no way "heavy mud" caused that

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kiwifan
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kiwifan 10/2/2017 3:31pm
10/2/2017 3:31pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
kiwifan wrote:
they use a different shock
kkawboy14 wrote:
Different or not I'm saying there is no way "heavy mud" caused that
but the difference is that the Showa shocks were unaffected by the mud build up...obviously...
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 10/2/2017 3:52pm
10/2/2017 3:52pm
kiwifan wrote:
they use a different shock
kkawboy14 wrote:
Different or not I'm saying there is no way "heavy mud" caused that
kiwifan wrote:
but the difference is that the Showa shocks were unaffected by the mud build up...obviously...
......because mud wasn't the issue!
NorCal 50+
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NorCal 50+ 10/2/2017 3:52pm
10/2/2017 3:52pm
I find it inconceivable that a professionally prepped bike couldn't make it more than a few laps in the mud- twice. It is just mind boggling.
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kkawboy14 10/2/2017 3:57pm
10/2/2017 3:57pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
I find it inconceivable that a professionally prepped bike couldn't make it more than a few laps in the mud- twice. It is just mind boggling.
Exactly!
Underground 10/2/2017 3:58pm
10/2/2017 3:58pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
I find it inconceivable that a professionally prepped bike couldn't make it more than a few laps in the mud- twice. It is just mind boggling.
What about in the dry?


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BobPA 10/2/2017 4:34pm
10/2/2017 4:34pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
I find it inconceivable that a professionally prepped bike couldn't make it more than a few laps in the mud- twice. It is just mind boggling.
Underground wrote:
What about in the dry? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/02/217917/s1200_s1200_image.jpg[/img]
What about in the dry?


Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
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RUTCITY 10/2/2017 4:44pm
10/2/2017 4:44pm
No better R&D than this unfortunately, I guess? Gutted for Seely.
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ML512 10/2/2017 5:16pm
10/2/2017 5:16pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
I find it inconceivable that a professionally prepped bike couldn't make it more than a few laps in the mud- twice. It is just mind boggling.
Underground wrote:
What about in the dry? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/02/217917/s1200_s1200_image.jpg[/img]
What about in the dry?


BobPA wrote:
Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
Dead air shock...
ML512
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ML512 10/2/2017 5:18pm
10/2/2017 5:18pm
Robgvx wrote:
Here's what happened. The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a...
Here's what happened.

The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a stone got forced into the split/opening in the spring collar, forcing it to either break or bend, (I didn't clarify that). The collar came out so the spring just slid down to the linkage. Hence the partial collapse.

Freak incident, which unfortunately happened twice.

Seeley used his own suspension (Kayaba). Different to the stuff the GP guys run.

That's my understanding.
philG wrote:
The info i received used the word 'clip' not collar.. seeing the shock, and pics as i did when i finally got home, that makes a...
The info i received used the word 'clip' not collar.. seeing the shock, and pics as i did when i finally got home, that makes a lot more sense. I have to say , looking at the above pic, i thought , as ML512 did, that it had the wire retainer, which would have failed sooner for the same reason.

Glad you put it to bed.
I corrected myself very earlier on the design and stated it was a collar, just for record, ha.
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BobPA 10/2/2017 5:23pm
10/2/2017 5:23pm
Underground wrote:
What about in the dry? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/02/217917/s1200_s1200_image.jpg[/img]
What about in the dry?


BobPA wrote:
Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
ML512 wrote:
Dead air shock...
Should have put on my sarcasm font...
Underground 10/2/2017 5:25pm
10/2/2017 5:25pm
Underground wrote:
What about in the dry? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/02/217917/s1200_s1200_image.jpg[/img]
What about in the dry?


BobPA wrote:
Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
ML512 wrote:
Dead air shock...
As I recall. Just saying, these things fail sometimes and it's not limited to one brand or bike. Hell, look at all green bike failures this year.
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ML512 10/2/2017 5:25pm
10/2/2017 5:25pm
BobPA wrote:
Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
ML512 wrote:
Dead air shock...
BobPA wrote:
Should have put on my sarcasm font...
Ahhh, ha.
NorCal 50+
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NorCal 50+ 10/2/2017 7:53pm
10/2/2017 7:53pm
It still doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial, but how does that even happen? The odds of a factory-prepped bike suffering the exact same peculiar failure by chance, on the same day, at the same event, is astronomical. We all ride dirt bikes. You would think there was something in assembly, preparation or design involved- not a routine mechanical. Not trying to blame anybody- it's just weird as hell.

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mark911
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mark911 10/2/2017 8:36pm
10/2/2017 8:36pm Edited Date/Time 10/2/2017 8:44pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
kiwifan wrote:
they use a different shock
kkawboy14 wrote:
Different or not I'm saying there is no way "heavy mud" caused that
Actually, indirectly it makes some sense. It's typical to add preload for a mud race to compensate for the extra weight of the mud. IF the spring was close to coil binding (aided by mud and stones) the extra preload would have put it over the edge. When coil bound ALL the load goes directly into the spring retaining mechanism, bypassing the DESIGNED load path which is through the bottoming bumper and shock body. It's basic engineering 101.

What's surprising is that the Honda engineers/techs couldn't diagnose the problem and put a spring with fewer turns on to increase the space between coils. Easy fix (assuming that was the problem), there's literally dozens of combinations of coil thickness vs # of coils to get the same rate if needed.

If it was a case of mud packing (probably due to landing short) causing the retainer to balloon (another predicable failure due to the open ended retainer which is great in compression but terrible in radial strength), a simple "shock sock" would have probably worked.

Seeing some of the dumb failures over the last couple of seasons, I'm really starting to doubt the technical competence of some of these factory/factory backed teams. Budgets?
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Johnny Depp 10/2/2017 9:08pm
10/2/2017 9:08pm Edited Date/Time 10/2/2017 9:13pm
ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history has had a sudden failure point exposed. It might also explain a few cases of Honda hop we have seen. Also might explain the linkage mounts torn loose from the frame. A good glide plate looks like a quick fix.
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NorCal 50+ 10/2/2017 10:21pm
10/2/2017 10:21pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history...
ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history has had a sudden failure point exposed. It might also explain a few cases of Honda hop we have seen. Also might explain the linkage mounts torn loose from the frame. A good glide plate looks like a quick fix.
That was one of the three I mentioned- design flaw. Not to be sensationalist- but there was some talk of dudes flying off this bike, right? Pure conjecture on my part. But if what you are saying is true, that sounds like kind of a big deal.
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philG 10/3/2017 12:41am
10/3/2017 12:41am
kiwifan wrote:
they use a different shock
kkawboy14 wrote:
Different or not I'm saying there is no way "heavy mud" caused that
mark911 wrote:
Actually, indirectly it makes some sense. It's typical to add preload for a mud race to compensate for the extra weight of the mud. IF the...
Actually, indirectly it makes some sense. It's typical to add preload for a mud race to compensate for the extra weight of the mud. IF the spring was close to coil binding (aided by mud and stones) the extra preload would have put it over the edge. When coil bound ALL the load goes directly into the spring retaining mechanism, bypassing the DESIGNED load path which is through the bottoming bumper and shock body. It's basic engineering 101.

What's surprising is that the Honda engineers/techs couldn't diagnose the problem and put a spring with fewer turns on to increase the space between coils. Easy fix (assuming that was the problem), there's literally dozens of combinations of coil thickness vs # of coils to get the same rate if needed.

If it was a case of mud packing (probably due to landing short) causing the retainer to balloon (another predicable failure due to the open ended retainer which is great in compression but terrible in radial strength), a simple "shock sock" would have probably worked.

Seeing some of the dumb failures over the last couple of seasons, I'm really starting to doubt the technical competence of some of these factory/factory backed teams. Budgets?
Loads of sense there, especially with the spring , you might have got away with it with a flatter platform, but being split , its always going to increase the load , im not an FEA guy, but like you say, ballooning the retainer at that height is always a risk.

I guess its what you have available at the track.

They majority of the guys at the track are 'bolties' in Motorsport parlance.. they bolt stuff on and that's about it, they wont have any clue about why stuff is like it is , they just fit it, as they are told to do by the senior engineer.

What you will have however is a savvy mechanic who knows straight away that a part is suspect and will do what he can to prevent failure,

Sounds like the new Honda has an weakness in this dept, with regards to fitment.

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RangerLee 10/3/2017 3:03am
10/3/2017 3:03am
BobPA wrote:
Crazy what a broken coil spring will do....
ML512 wrote:
Dead air shock...
Underground wrote:
As I recall. Just saying, these things fail sometimes and it's not limited to one brand or bike. Hell, look at all green bike failures this...
As I recall. Just saying, these things fail sometimes and it's not limited to one brand or bike. Hell, look at all green bike failures this year.
Plus the big difference is they resolved the issue and he was able to keep riding and finish on the podium that night. The same break did not happen twice in the same night.
darren7878 10/3/2017 3:34am
10/3/2017 3:34am
Robgvx wrote:
Here's what happened. The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a...
Here's what happened.

The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a stone got forced into the split/opening in the spring collar, forcing it to either break or bend, (I didn't clarify that). The collar came out so the spring just slid down to the linkage. Hence the partial collapse.

Freak incident, which unfortunately happened twice.

Seeley used his own suspension (Kayaba). Different to the stuff the GP guys run.

That's my understanding.
The USA guys did not bring suspension they shipped their normal race bikes.


The rest who knows they tell people whatever they like and covered that bike up very quickly................
Underground 10/3/2017 3:47am
10/3/2017 3:47am
ML512 wrote:
Dead air shock...
Underground wrote:
As I recall. Just saying, these things fail sometimes and it's not limited to one brand or bike. Hell, look at all green bike failures this...
As I recall. Just saying, these things fail sometimes and it's not limited to one brand or bike. Hell, look at all green bike failures this year.
RangerLee wrote:
Plus the big difference is they resolved the issue and he was able to keep riding and finish on the podium that night. The same break...
Plus the big difference is they resolved the issue and he was able to keep riding and finish on the podium that night. The same break did not happen twice in the same night.
They went back to coil spring shock that night and it wasn't the first time it happened from what I remember. Anyway, I was just giving an example of things going bad at this level. It happens and teams learn from it and progress and we as the consumer eventually get the benefits
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ktm212 10/3/2017 9:50am
10/3/2017 9:50am
From RacerX...

"Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail."

Don't ride hondas in the mud Whistling
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kkawboy14 10/3/2017 10:20am
10/3/2017 10:20am Edited Date/Time 10/3/2017 10:21am
ktm212 wrote:
From RacerX... "Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
From RacerX...

"Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail."

Don't ride hondas in the mud Whistling
Seeleys bike at the end didn't look very muddy. There is no way the weight of the mud did anything to that suspension.
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MX Guy 10/3/2017 10:48am
10/3/2017 10:48am Edited Date/Time 10/3/2017 10:50am
NorCal 50+ wrote:
It still doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial, but how does that even happen? The odds of a factory-prepped bike suffering the...
It still doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial, but how does that even happen? The odds of a factory-prepped bike suffering the exact same peculiar failure by chance, on the same day, at the same event, is astronomical. We all ride dirt bikes. You would think there was something in assembly, preparation or design involved- not a routine mechanical. Not trying to blame anybody- it's just weird as hell.
Same here, tin foil hat or not, I smell bullshit

I haven't seen either of the two shocks in person, I can't accept what's being stated as the cause

Maybe if it happened only once, but two in a row is too consistent to be coincidence in my opinion

What shock was he running at unadilla that seemed totally fine in the mud?
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RangerLee 10/3/2017 2:39pm
10/3/2017 2:39pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
It still doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial, but how does that even happen? The odds of a factory-prepped bike suffering the...
It still doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial, but how does that even happen? The odds of a factory-prepped bike suffering the exact same peculiar failure by chance, on the same day, at the same event, is astronomical. We all ride dirt bikes. You would think there was something in assembly, preparation or design involved- not a routine mechanical. Not trying to blame anybody- it's just weird as hell.
MX Guy wrote:
Same here, tin foil hat or not, I smell bullshit I haven't seen either of the two shocks in person, I can't accept what's being stated...
Same here, tin foil hat or not, I smell bullshit

I haven't seen either of the two shocks in person, I can't accept what's being stated as the cause

Maybe if it happened only once, but two in a row is too consistent to be coincidence in my opinion

What shock was he running at unadilla that seemed totally fine in the mud?
Honestly for me, it happening twice when they used the exact same set up makes me think it is a valid point. A weak spot in the set up and in the exact same conditions with nothing changed it failed two times. I would begin to look at poor mechanical work if it only happened once and they did not change anything at all for the second race. (of course it still could be but unlikely)
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philG 10/3/2017 3:04pm
10/3/2017 3:04pm
I know guys who are 130kg who race, and land hard , and have never broken anything, seely is like 70kg dripping wet , there is no way that bike had 60kg of mud on it.. 15 at most.

They would have looked less stupid if they had said it was electrical, as was aid yesterday lol..

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