What on earth is up with Tomac....

pilotdude
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pilotdude 6/3/2017 4:58pm
6/3/2017 4:58pm
This is weird because I always felt Tomac was a better outdoor rider then indoor. However, ever since the first 2 motos of the year, he has not been riding that way at all and in fact hasn't even ridden like the rider we was in supercross.

I have no idea what is going on with him, but while he has the speed to win every time, he doesn't seem to have to drive the other champions of his perceived status had to want to win...almost like a fever. A hate of losing and a fierce will to win, coupled with the rare skills so few have.

You have to have all of those to be one of the greats, and it seems he doesn't have them all right now. Maybe the blow from giving away the SX title the way he did is still affecting him. I don't know. I do know he was very hard to beat in supercross, until he gave it all away in New Jersey. I would think he would be filled with a desire to absolutely crush in the outdoors to make up for losing.

Apparently not. It could just be he's not up to the standard many assumed he was.
sickboy3636
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sickboy3636 6/3/2017 5:06pm
6/3/2017 5:06pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 5:07pm
AZRider wrote:
Why do people get so hung up on thinking the fastest guy should win the title all the time. Remember Damon Bradshaw, Ezra Lusk, Seb Tortelli...
Why do people get so hung up on thinking the fastest guy should win the title all the time. Remember Damon Bradshaw, Ezra Lusk, Seb Tortelli, TP199, ....The list is incredibly long.

Championship recipes have a specific set of ingredients, as do race winning recipes. They don't always read the same on the label.
Its a solid point, cause all I heard after Dungey won was repeatedly how he wasn't the fastest guy. It takes more to have the type of longevity those guys had. RV was fun to watch cause he rode nearly outta control and still maintained his consistency....but it hasn't worked for many guys. As the list you stated. Pastrana himself said he wasn't a "racer" cause he didn't understand how to ride for championships.......so its a much different mentality than just hauling ass. But I really thought Eli's family pedigree would have him engrained with the mind of a champion. I've always liked Eli, but his demons are def becoming more and more visible as the years tick by.
RandyS
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RandyS 6/3/2017 5:26pm
6/3/2017 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 5:27pm
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the "it" whatever it is that champions have. Sure he won a SX and outdoor championship on 250s but 2 seasons where he was clearly the fastest rider he couldn't close the deal. This is his 4th season on 450s, nobody has ever won their first premier title after their third season indoor. I'm not sure about outdoors, maybe Stanton. Lackey took 10 years in Europe but he had already won a 500 title here. It's odd too because he's had a proven champion training him since the day he was born.
pilotdude
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pilotdude 6/3/2017 5:31pm
6/3/2017 5:31pm
RandyS wrote:
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the...
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the "it" whatever it is that champions have. Sure he won a SX and outdoor championship on 250s but 2 seasons where he was clearly the fastest rider he couldn't close the deal. This is his 4th season on 450s, nobody has ever won their first premier title after their third season indoor. I'm not sure about outdoors, maybe Stanton. Lackey took 10 years in Europe but he had already won a 500 title here. It's odd too because he's had a proven champion training him since the day he was born.
It gives me no pleasure to agree with you, because I was hoping he would rise to become the next RV, RC, etc., but how I have very strong doubts. He simply has not been the same rider since the whole shoulder thing in 2015. Flashes of brilliance, even a strong winning streak this year in SX...only to melt down and give it away.

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sickboy3636
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sickboy3636 6/3/2017 5:35pm
6/3/2017 5:35pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 5:35pm
RandyS wrote:
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the...
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the "it" whatever it is that champions have. Sure he won a SX and outdoor championship on 250s but 2 seasons where he was clearly the fastest rider he couldn't close the deal. This is his 4th season on 450s, nobody has ever won their first premier title after their third season indoor. I'm not sure about outdoors, maybe Stanton. Lackey took 10 years in Europe but he had already won a 500 title here. It's odd too because he's had a proven champion training him since the day he was born.
I know......with the pops he had you'd def think the never die attitude would be engrained. But every man has to find it for himself......winning and maintaining at that level is hard to even comprehend for most humans. To have that level of grit takes something that I don't think you can instill in someone.....you got it or you don't. Thats def an interesting stat though....
rutsmash
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rutsmash 6/3/2017 5:38pm
6/3/2017 5:38pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 5:38pm
sickboy3636 wrote:
Compound the position he was in from last week with the fact that he's at his "home" track and I thought he was gonna be on...
Compound the position he was in from last week with the fact that he's at his "home" track and I thought he was gonna be on another level this week. I'm stunned by this ride in Moto 1.
Tomac is fragile. When confronted with someone that challenges him, he seems to struggle. Tomac had arm pump issues when facing a clearly superior (mental game) Roczen in SX. Once he was out, Tomac magically overcomes and dominates cause Dungey doesn't seem to carry that intimidation with Tomac. In the second moto today, he felt he should be ahead of Bagget so he passes him with confidence. But when the El Chupacabra comes out and challenges him, he drops off the pace quite a bit. Tomac is the fastest guy with confidence, but its a fragile confidence.
ob
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ob 6/3/2017 5:47pm
6/3/2017 5:47pm
It's early, all his focus has been on winning that SX title. He will come around as long as he doesn't hurt himself trying. Not a good track record at that though.
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agn5009 6/3/2017 6:13pm
6/3/2017 6:13pm
davistld01 wrote:
I'm selling tickets for the El Chupacabra wagon...get 'em while their cheap. Cool
Man, I hope he continues this week's performance. I'm just not sold yet. He's done this in the past where he looks fantastic one week then goes out and finishes a mediocre 7th.
Hut
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Hut 6/3/2017 6:22pm
6/3/2017 6:22pm
RandyS wrote:
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the...
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the "it" whatever it is that champions have. Sure he won a SX and outdoor championship on 250s but 2 seasons where he was clearly the fastest rider he couldn't close the deal. This is his 4th season on 450s, nobody has ever won their first premier title after their third season indoor. I'm not sure about outdoors, maybe Stanton. Lackey took 10 years in Europe but he had already won a 500 title here. It's odd too because he's had a proven champion training him since the day he was born.
pilotdude wrote:
It gives me no pleasure to agree with you, because I was hoping he would rise to become the next RV, RC, etc., but how I...
It gives me no pleasure to agree with you, because I was hoping he would rise to become the next RV, RC, etc., but how I have very strong doubts. He simply has not been the same rider since the whole shoulder thing in 2015. Flashes of brilliance, even a strong winning streak this year in SX...only to melt down and give it away.
Don't forget he destroyed both his shoulders while wiping the floor with everyone at Denver 2 years ago. Winning a 450 title ain't easy but he is still a favorite.
JW381
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JW381 6/3/2017 6:33pm
6/3/2017 6:33pm
As some of you may have guessed, I'm not a top tier motocross racer. I know this may surprise you, but I felt the need to clear the air on that subject before my next statement. I think I can relate to Eli a little. I am a very mental guy, my success in whatever I am doing can be, at times, fragile. It sucks, but it also makes the victories that much sweeter. To me it seems like Eli is off his game mentally, maybe something to do with losing the SX championship. He could very well win the outdoor title for all I know, but at the moment he seems like something has thrown him off his mental game. That's the only possible explanation I can think of when a guy teters between absolutely dominant and rather average.
Lester
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Lester 6/3/2017 6:34pm
6/3/2017 6:34pm
Dungey wore Tomac down, mentally and physically, and everyone knows Dungey would be leading this series right now.
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kzizok 6/3/2017 6:43pm
6/3/2017 6:43pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 6:46pm
When Tomac started clicking off wins in SX, he seemed to be maturing as he started backing things down as he his leads were no longer in question. He wasnt killing it all the way through. Really thought he had turned the corner. Maybe he has just started to turn the corner, but still seems a little fragile, mentally. I still say its easier to work on things, when the speed is there, instead of trying to find speed. Who knows?!

Edit: JW381, I wrote this and didn't see yours. They are coincidentally very similar!
TheGetFresh 6/3/2017 6:47pm
6/3/2017 6:47pm
Anybody notice Eli looking down at his bike early in moto 1? I think you're seeing a rider who has no faith in the machine. Let's hope Kawi can restore it with the two week break.
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Nighttrain 6/3/2017 6:55pm
6/3/2017 6:55pm
LowPsi wrote:
Thunder Valley is where his career almost ended. Maybe he was just being smart.
That's what I was thinking going in to today's race. Whatever the case it's shaping up to be a good MX season without a dominant rider yarding the field every moto. It's been a while since the premier class has been anything but predictable.
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2thefront 6/3/2017 7:05pm
6/3/2017 7:05pm
I think he'll be fine. He has the highest ceiling of anyone out there, he just needs the conditions to be right. I would imagine they're a little behind on testing since they were going for the SX championship. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a "big change" with the bike when we come back from the break.
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sickboy3636 6/3/2017 7:14pm
6/3/2017 7:14pm
LowPsi wrote:
Thunder Valley is where his career almost ended. Maybe he was just being smart.
Nighttrain wrote:
That's what I was thinking going in to today's race. Whatever the case it's shaping up to be a good MX season without a dominant rider...
That's what I was thinking going in to today's race. Whatever the case it's shaping up to be a good MX season without a dominant rider yarding the field every moto. It's been a while since the premier class has been anything but predictable.
This may be the case......but I think every one of us can be thankful we're not having to sit through a dreaded 24-0 yawn fest this year. I loved watching Dungey win, just cause I really like the guy, but I'd be totally contend going a few years without a big gun out there. I can't really remember the last time theres been a good run with so many guys that have potential to place at the top. As much as I like coming on here and debating what the hell is going on with everyone, I'm super thankful for the way the season in 250 and 450 is shaping up. After the way SX ended, 2017 might be one of the greatest years of racing ever.....and I really don't think thats an exaggeration.
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SCR 6/3/2017 7:21pm
6/3/2017 7:21pm
After Hangtown he was the fastest rider in history and nobody had a chance. Today he is a fragile headcase that doesn't have the resolve and discipline to be a champion. Next week he will win again and be back to fastest rider in history and the championship will be over.

Maybe he had a off day and could only go 7-2 against the best there is.
rutsmash
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rutsmash 6/3/2017 7:34pm
6/3/2017 7:34pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 7:35pm
SCR wrote:
After Hangtown he was the fastest rider in history and nobody had a chance. Today he is a fragile headcase that doesn't have the resolve and...
After Hangtown he was the fastest rider in history and nobody had a chance. Today he is a fragile headcase that doesn't have the resolve and discipline to be a champion. Next week he will win again and be back to fastest rider in history and the championship will be over.

Maybe he had a off day and could only go 7-2 against the best there is.
You are probably correct. But coming off the McGrath, Carmichael, Stewart, Villopoto and Dungey era, we come to (maybe mistakenly) expect the front guy (in his prime) to be dominant, meaning - always up front, never fades, moves forward, no drama, etc, etc. Tomac is not that guy yet. I'm perfectly happy with this because it is making for great racing.

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FGR01
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FGR01 6/3/2017 7:41pm
6/3/2017 7:41pm
Definitely needs to get on the Vital regimen with torqued sprocket bolts and vinegar in his boots.
AZRider
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AZRider 6/3/2017 7:42pm
6/3/2017 7:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 7:44pm
SCR wrote:
After Hangtown he was the fastest rider in history and nobody had a chance. Today he is a fragile headcase that doesn't have the resolve and...
After Hangtown he was the fastest rider in history and nobody had a chance. Today he is a fragile headcase that doesn't have the resolve and discipline to be a champion. Next week he will win again and be back to fastest rider in history and the championship will be over.

Maybe he had a off day and could only go 7-2 against the best there is.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I relate this back to my grandfather who worked in Las Vegas for the casinos during the 1980s. He recorded everything. On any given day about 50% of the slot machines made money. At a weekly level the number grew to 75%. At the end of a month 95% of every slot machine was showing a profit. When it comes to a good bet, you wont win everytime, but you will win most of the time over a set timeframe if you have picked a good winner. Eli is a winner. Will he win a title? Who knows. He will win a fair number of races, but he is not unstoppable. Just like Roczen, Dungey, Villopoto, Stewart, Mcgrath, etc. I wont include RC because he had to have made pact with the devil to do what he did. ##GOAT Yes he deserves 2 Hashtags...And I am not comparing ET3 to Stewart, Mcgrath, or Dungey. Just making a point.
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PRM31 6/3/2017 7:47pm
6/3/2017 7:47pm
Maybe he learned a lesson from Dungey. If you're not feeling it, ride within yourself. Hard to fault him for the bike problems, not really related to fitness or any mental game. Really, he just needs to figure out starts. Clearly he does not get good jumps on the gate.
deluxeman
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deluxeman 6/3/2017 7:53pm
6/3/2017 7:53pm
RandyS wrote:
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the...
I don't hate Tomac at all, although he's never been one of my favorite riders, for no particular reason. But I don't think he has the "it" whatever it is that champions have. Sure he won a SX and outdoor championship on 250s but 2 seasons where he was clearly the fastest rider he couldn't close the deal. This is his 4th season on 450s, nobody has ever won their first premier title after their third season indoor. I'm not sure about outdoors, maybe Stanton. Lackey took 10 years in Europe but he had already won a 500 title here. It's odd too because he's had a proven champion training him since the day he was born.
John Tomac was a champion on a bicycle, a very grueling sport. Bicyling is similar to Marathon running your genetics weigh far more heavily than your desire to win. You can either physically run the time or you cant. Not saying that there is no mental game or technique, not at all they have to be mentally strong , but it isn't the same as other sports. You can be a SX champ with less than optimal genetics, your not going to win a marathon or a MTB world championship without them.

Elite level athletes all have good genetics, not all have the mental strength and resilience to be champions. Mental toughness is not always passed down to the next generation.
MMCDan
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MMCDan 6/3/2017 8:07pm
6/3/2017 8:07pm
I've always thought Tomac was too smart (IQ-wise) to consistently push himself to ride at the level it takes to be a champion in this sport. With all due respect, a majority of the current and former modern day champions are not what I'd call brilliant, and appear to have the ability to get comfortable with and/or just accept the risks associated with riding outside of their comfort zone. Tomac on the other hand appears to over-analyze and thinks too much about the consequences of mistakes at that speed and I think it holds him back during anything other than optimum conditions (e.g, track, setup, etc.).

Also, there's the mental side. I always refer back to one of Al Pacino's lines in Devil's Advocate: "Pressure. Some people you squeeze them and it makes them focus. Others, squeeze them and they fall apart."

Sorry, I'm a Tomac fan and completely frustrated right now.
kzizok
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kzizok 6/3/2017 8:16pm
6/3/2017 8:16pm
Eli has been a champion through his entire career, at almost every level, since he was a kid. He's won titles on 50's, 65's, 85's, superminis, big bike amateur's, 250 pros, both in the US and abroad (amateur stuff). They all come with their own level of pressure and circumstances, and he has proven to overcome them. He won his first ever pro race, won domestic GP's, etc., so he has the speed. Really, he lacks 2 450 titles and still has time to get those. But, it does seem that he is mentally fragile lately, when the ultimate pressure is on.


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Fourth_Floor 6/3/2017 8:16pm
6/3/2017 8:16pm
sickboy3636 wrote:
Its a solid point, cause all I heard after Dungey won was repeatedly how he wasn't the fastest guy. It takes more to have the type...
Its a solid point, cause all I heard after Dungey won was repeatedly how he wasn't the fastest guy. It takes more to have the type of longevity those guys had. RV was fun to watch cause he rode nearly outta control and still maintained his consistency....but it hasn't worked for many guys. As the list you stated. Pastrana himself said he wasn't a "racer" cause he didn't understand how to ride for championships.......so its a much different mentality than just hauling ass. But I really thought Eli's family pedigree would have him engrained with the mind of a champion. I've always liked Eli, but his demons are def becoming more and more visible as the years tick by.
Not real certain what Eli's dad has to do with anything or the thought process that Eli should be a natural born champion? Motocross and mountain biking are two entirely different things.
mx 219
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mx 219 6/3/2017 8:17pm
6/3/2017 8:17pm
the more I browse the forums the more funny stuff I see.

never realized RandyS was a Tomac hater until about a month ago. Tomac may have choked and lost 3 titles (2013 W SX, 2015 MX, and 2017 SX), but he is human.

Freakin Dungey choked and lost a couple too. Shoot, he almost lost his first regional SX title (he can thank Canard for holding off Weimer) and he probably loses to Pourcel in 2009 MX if the Frenchy doesnt have bike issues.


Im about done with Vital, most of you guys are Monday QB a holes. This sport is very mental, it always has been. Why has Bagget struggled so much since winning his first outdoor title. Shoot if Roczen comes back doesnt set the world on fire he will probably start to doubt himself a little too. It is what it is. It gets to these guys, until you guys can do better just shut up and enjoy the racing these kids and young adults are human. At least they get to make a living or some decent money out of something they enjoy.

I dont know if Tomac had some kind of issue, but he rode better this week than last. Im hoping that he just didnt get much testing done for MX and gets a chance to do that the next couple weeks and comes out swinging at Mt. Morris.
1st Amendment 6/3/2017 8:20pm
6/3/2017 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2017 8:20pm
PRM31 wrote:
Maybe he learned a lesson from Dungey. If you're not feeling it, ride within yourself. Hard to fault him for the bike problems, not really related...
Maybe he learned a lesson from Dungey. If you're not feeling it, ride within yourself. Hard to fault him for the bike problems, not really related to fitness or any mental game. Really, he just needs to figure out starts. Clearly he does not get good jumps on the gate.
That's what separates guys like RC and Dungey from the rest of the field. On their worse days they were still beating the other 98%
Hut
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Hut 6/3/2017 8:26pm
6/3/2017 8:26pm
mx 219 wrote:
the more I browse the forums the more funny stuff I see. never realized RandyS was a Tomac hater until about a month ago. Tomac may...
the more I browse the forums the more funny stuff I see.

never realized RandyS was a Tomac hater until about a month ago. Tomac may have choked and lost 3 titles (2013 W SX, 2015 MX, and 2017 SX), but he is human.

Freakin Dungey choked and lost a couple too. Shoot, he almost lost his first regional SX title (he can thank Canard for holding off Weimer) and he probably loses to Pourcel in 2009 MX if the Frenchy doesnt have bike issues.


Im about done with Vital, most of you guys are Monday QB a holes. This sport is very mental, it always has been. Why has Bagget struggled so much since winning his first outdoor title. Shoot if Roczen comes back doesnt set the world on fire he will probably start to doubt himself a little too. It is what it is. It gets to these guys, until you guys can do better just shut up and enjoy the racing these kids and young adults are human. At least they get to make a living or some decent money out of something they enjoy.

I dont know if Tomac had some kind of issue, but he rode better this week than last. Im hoping that he just didnt get much testing done for MX and gets a chance to do that the next couple weeks and comes out swinging at Mt. Morris.
Don't run off, stay and learn about the mind and genetics of Eli Tomac. lol


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deluxeman 6/3/2017 9:08pm
6/3/2017 9:08pm
mx 219 wrote:
the more I browse the forums the more funny stuff I see. never realized RandyS was a Tomac hater until about a month ago. Tomac may...
the more I browse the forums the more funny stuff I see.

never realized RandyS was a Tomac hater until about a month ago. Tomac may have choked and lost 3 titles (2013 W SX, 2015 MX, and 2017 SX), but he is human.

Freakin Dungey choked and lost a couple too. Shoot, he almost lost his first regional SX title (he can thank Canard for holding off Weimer) and he probably loses to Pourcel in 2009 MX if the Frenchy doesnt have bike issues.


Im about done with Vital, most of you guys are Monday QB a holes. This sport is very mental, it always has been. Why has Bagget struggled so much since winning his first outdoor title. Shoot if Roczen comes back doesnt set the world on fire he will probably start to doubt himself a little too. It is what it is. It gets to these guys, until you guys can do better just shut up and enjoy the racing these kids and young adults are human. At least they get to make a living or some decent money out of something they enjoy.

I dont know if Tomac had some kind of issue, but he rode better this week than last. Im hoping that he just didnt get much testing done for MX and gets a chance to do that the next couple weeks and comes out swinging at Mt. Morris.
Hut wrote:
Don't run off, stay and learn about the mind and genetics of Eli Tomac. lol [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/06/03/198891/s1200_slob.jpg[/img]
Don't run off, stay and learn about the mind and genetics of Eli Tomac. lol


Good stuff, thanks for the poke at me. You have a good sense of humor and I can appreciate that, some of us take this stuff a little too seriously, I will include myself in that group sometimes.
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Coyote 6/3/2017 9:09pm
6/3/2017 9:09pm
Villo2fan wrote:
I'm finally going to admit that Tomac is a head case. His speed is there and fitness is there. When one little thing goes wrong he...
I'm finally going to admit that Tomac is a head case. His speed is there and fitness is there. When one little thing goes wrong he implodes
all of ya'll would be a head case to if this was your 1st time back at the track that derailed your career last time you raced it...just sayin!!

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