What exactly is an EFi smoker gonna give us?

CalRMX
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Brea, CA, USA
3/16/2017 9:19am
logan_140 wrote:
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but...
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but I almost guarantee if these sell well (and they will) there will be an SX model for 2019..
Well it's going to give me a raging hard on, and not that faggy feeling I get when riding a modern 4-stroke
Acidreamer
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3/16/2017 9:26am
Probably a stupid question, but will the traditional characteristics of a two stroke remain the same? Like the sound, the size and bend of the pipe...
Probably a stupid question, but will the traditional characteristics of a two stroke remain the same? Like the sound, the size and bend of the pipe etc.
Yes. Compare to to 4 strokes going to carb vs efi. It will translate pretty much the same
Acidreamer
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3/16/2017 9:31am
1stSSPZ wrote:
For the off-road world? It will make the bikes more expensive to purchase and more difficult to maintain. For the manufacturers I believe the real benefit...
For the off-road world? It will make the bikes more expensive to purchase and more difficult to maintain.

For the manufacturers I believe the real benefit will be easier to make 2-strokes street legal again.
Skidaddle wrote:
Exactly how is there more to maintain when other industries have zero to maintain? There was nothing to maintain 25+ years ago. I've never once even...
Exactly how is there more to maintain when other industries have zero to maintain?
There was nothing to maintain 25+ years ago.

I've never once even had to replace an injector, or anything. Ever.

Jeffro, exactly what added electronics? You realize other than a fuel pump and inectors there is basically nothing since current bikes have a digital CDI so you need a small circuitboard and a small ECU.

Man this industry needs to go outside and get off the video games and experience other things in life and see whats out there. Smh.

Here is the best part......how dumb can people be when they say oil is an issue.
It's been 30 years. ..no problems. Again, smh at how far behind the times moto is.


are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.
braaap707
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Charlton City, MA, USA
3/16/2017 9:35am
RickA wrote:
They can make it jump another 10hp back on a Carb if they want to. Has nothing to do with fuel delivery.
It has to do with fuel delivery and development of the bike as a whole. Most 4 strokes actually lost power or stayed the same when they went EFI but since then have made a big jump in hp partially because of the development of fuel injection. There is no more developing carbs. Keihn is pretty much done with them and Mikuni sees the writing on the wall. Makes me wonder who they will use for injection, Keihn or Mikuni. EFI is going to go hand in hand with the development process of these bikes and there will be hp gains. Maybe not immediately though. I guess we'll see what happens in the summer when Europe starts to get them.

The Shop

kaptkaos
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3/16/2017 9:44am
Who cares? Two strokes are so old school!

tek14
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3/16/2017 9:46am
Everything is better with EFI TPI plain and simple.
hvaughn88
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3/16/2017 9:51am
skidaddle is too easy
The Bob
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Twin Cities, MN, USA
3/16/2017 10:14am
Acidreamer wrote:
are you dumb? Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace. Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics. Fuel...
are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.


Not going to get into the whole argument over if its good or not. But we have no problem with getting mixed fuel through snowmobile injectors (Polaris and Arctic Cat). One down fall of being DI is the reeds not being lubricated with anything and failing earlier. Hence V-Force and Boyesen making rubber coated cages for EFI sleds.

That is all.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 10:22am
Acidreamer wrote:
are you dumb? Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace. Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics. Fuel...
are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone.
The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone.

Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All made by Bosch, which is what most OEM use.

You do realize two strokes have been running premix EFI and race outboards still do for the last 30 years.

Oopsie. Explain this extreme cost to me for parts that in 30 years, Ive never had a failure.
RickA
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Duluth, MN, USA
3/16/2017 10:26am
Arctic cat has had efi twostrokes sense the mid 90s. I think like 96 or 97. I have a 05 Arctic cat sled with efi on...
Arctic cat has had efi twostrokes sense the mid 90s. I think like 96 or 97. I have a 05 Arctic cat sled with efi on it and it always starts first or second pull and verry rarely fouls plugs and you don't have to worry about it not being jetted right. I will say that the efi on the twostroke will add a little weight but I think in the long run it will be better. Also Arctic cat motors were made by Suzuki then and up until just a few years ago so Suzuki has the technology. They did however offer carb or efi option. Maybe Ktm will do the same and have about a $500 price difference.
Arctic EFI has been a disaster. I remember the 97 ZRT580 all too well
RickA
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3/16/2017 10:27am
Does anyone remember the Polaris RXL? That ran ok.. I thought that was their first EFI attempt
RickA
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3/16/2017 10:30am
Acidreamer wrote:
are you dumb? Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace. Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics. Fuel...
are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.
Skidaddle wrote:
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone. The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone. Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All...
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone.
The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone.

Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All made by Bosch, which is what most OEM use.

You do realize two strokes have been running premix EFI and race outboards still do for the last 30 years.

Oopsie. Explain this extreme cost to me for parts that in 30 years, Ive never had a failure.
The 500$ fuel pump died on my KTM. Can you get that at Autozone for 20$? OR fix it at the track?
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 10:37am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 11:09am
RickA wrote:
Does anyone remember the Polaris RXL? That ran ok.. I thought that was their first EFI attempt
No. The 1992 EFI 500 was. They had a hard time with the big triple because they simply tried to add a 3rd map.

Twins fire every up AND down for each stroke and the triples and the firing and injection timing were totally different. The aftermarket figured it out with an aftermarket EPROM chip that took a few minutes to swap.

The best part of that was......the aftermarket chip could compensate for the impending ethanol gas that hit the west in 1995.

For twin owners...Polaris gave owners in Ethanol states a free chip! I got mine with a free tube of dielectric grease and a free grounding strap also.

To be honest...the ethanol chip ran better and was updated mapping.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 10:59am
RickA wrote:
The 500$ fuel pump died on my KTM. Can you get that at Autozone for 20$? OR fix it at the track?
Maybe look at who makes it and buy it elsewhere?

My sled has a holley to replace the stocker Mikuni, and on my boat I got a Holley 240 GPH EFI pump for a spare and it was about 150 bucks online. I think a stocker was double for the same exact thing.

Remember this....the pump is probably made by whoever makes the throttle body. Get the same GPH and pressure rated pump and you're good.

I dont see how a fuel pump can be 500 bucks when EFI only cost 350-500 more on a sled and a grand on an outboard with 6 injectors and a higher pressure pump (luckily external) and swappable in 5 minutes.

A fuel pump quitting is really rare. The best part of my boats outboards being 32:1 from the factory is shit lasts.

Want to quite your cars noisy fuel pump? Add a couple ounces of 2 stroke to your tank. Boom. Silence.
Potts
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3/16/2017 11:26am
logan_140 wrote:
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but...
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but I almost guarantee if these sell well (and they will) there will be an SX model for 2019..
Living in California I'm hoping this will give is "Green Sticker" two strokes!
Acidreamer
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Mansfield, OH, USA
3/16/2017 11:26am
Acidreamer wrote:
are you dumb? Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace. Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics. Fuel...
are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.
Skidaddle wrote:
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone. The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone. Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All...
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone.
The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone.

Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All made by Bosch, which is what most OEM use.

You do realize two strokes have been running premix EFI and race outboards still do for the last 30 years.

Oopsie. Explain this extreme cost to me for parts that in 30 years, Ive never had a failure.
He said you can buy dirtbike parts at autozone. Im done. You cant even get a spark plug for a bike at autozone.

The vehicle down sensor for my kx was $70 for a used one.

An oem kx450 injector is $105.

This is for a jap bike. It will be more for a ktm.
BobPA
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3/16/2017 11:28am
Acidreamer wrote:
He said you can buy dirtbike parts at autozone. Im done. You cant even get a spark plug for a bike at autozone. The vehicle down...
He said you can buy dirtbike parts at autozone. Im done. You cant even get a spark plug for a bike at autozone.

The vehicle down sensor for my kx was $70 for a used one.

An oem kx450 injector is $105.

This is for a jap bike. It will be more for a ktm.
KTM injectors are under $80 for my 350
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 11:28am
BobInIndy wrote:
While EFI can electronically provide the precise fuel/air mixture required at virtually any rpm or atmospheric condition, DI can do the same, without any more 'smoker'...
While EFI can electronically provide the precise fuel/air mixture required at virtually any rpm or atmospheric condition, DI can do the same, without any more 'smoker'. In DI (used for years in some outboards and snow mobiles), only raw fuel (no oil) is injected into the combustion area. That injection only occurs after the exhaust port is closed, so no raw fuel goes out the exhaust.
Take a look at DI. Direct Injection.
It's much more promising than just EFI.
WoodsRacer wrote:
Thats partially true about 2 stroke DIs. Oil is still injected onto the crank, rods and other areas and still carried up by the incoming air...
Thats partially true about 2 stroke DIs.

Oil is still injected onto the crank, rods and other areas and still carried up by the incoming air into the cylinder to lube the piston and cylinder walls, so it still has a chance to short circuit and exit raw through the exhaust. Although greatly reduced since you are using targeted oiling and can cut back on quantity.

Also injection after exhaust part closed only happens at low engine speeds and very low loads. As load goes up you need more fuel and hence more injection time. Also as engine speed goes up you have reduced time after exhaust port close. Combine these two factors and it really is a very small window in speed/load where you inject during closed ports. So again you have the chance to short circuit some fuel mixture out the pipe.

But, even with all that said it is a reduction over throttle body or even port injection in terms of emissions numbers. But the cost of this system to develop and produce is also significant, hence why its really only used to fight emissions regulations. It doesn't truly add a huge benefit to the consumer, well unless your a tree hugging nut case.
On True DI you HAVE to have oil injection.

On EFI you can run premix or with SDI(Depending on if you have a throttle body or crankcase injector you can get away with no oil injection.

IMO true DI is alot riskier, and more prone to problems.

True DI runs double the fuel pressure roughly, or more than a simple EFI or SDI system.


mx510
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Gig Harbor, WA, USA
3/16/2017 11:30am
Halfast816 wrote:
$10,000 two strokes........
We already have those.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 11:34am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 11:49am
Acidreamer wrote:
He said you can buy dirtbike parts at autozone. Im done. You cant even get a spark plug for a bike at autozone. The vehicle down...
He said you can buy dirtbike parts at autozone. Im done. You cant even get a spark plug for a bike at autozone.

The vehicle down sensor for my kx was $70 for a used one.

An oem kx450 injector is $105.

This is for a jap bike. It will be more for a ktm.
BobPA wrote:
KTM injectors are under $80 for my 350
Bob, He doesnt realize most OEM injectors are Bosch or some other similar company. I have no idea who each OEM outsources to, but if you have a 2 stroke or 4 stroke Bosch injector, or sensor part number, why pay 5 times more for the same part that goes on 100 other models or cars that is the exact same thing.

Just like Honda brand spark plugs are just overpriced NGK in a red box that says HONDA BR9....lolz.

3/16/2017 11:40am
It will be complex: https://www.google.com/patents/US6691649

However, it will also be smooth, pretty much "show up and ride" anywhere ready and no more guessing for trying to get rid of the bog and what now. The biggest benefit IMO, is the addition of already the counter balanced motor.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 11:41am
BobPA wrote:
KTM injectors are under $80 for my 350
A 4 pack of injectors for a Kawasaki ninja are less than 125 bucks.

probaby the same as his 450F

Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 11:45am
4 strokes >>>>> 2 strokes. Hate away
Not in any other sport except F1 where weight is a concern.
3/16/2017 11:54am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 11:56am
I hate that dirt bikes are $10,000.. like who can justify spending that and then spending another $1500 on gear? Never owned a new bike because I never thought it was worth it to me for the once or twice a week riding I do.
tek14
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3/16/2017 11:54am
Acidreamer wrote:
are you dumb? Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace. Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics. Fuel...
are you dumb?

Efi means electrical components that go bad and are expensive as shit to replace.

Everything needs a sensor now. Thats added electronics.

Fuel injectors have extremely small openings for gas to be sprayed in case you didnt know. Oil is at a much higher viscosity than gasolline and will be harder to push through the openings.

Compare your 30 year old whatever to a modern 450 race bike and it will look like shit. The 2 stroke ktms need to meet or exceed the 4 strokes to be viable.
Skidaddle wrote:
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone. The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone. Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All...
Actually an injector can be bought for 14 dollars at autozone.
The airbox sensor is 9 dollars...at autozone.

Water temp sensor is 15 dollars....at autozone. All made by Bosch, which is what most OEM use.

You do realize two strokes have been running premix EFI and race outboards still do for the last 30 years.

Oopsie. Explain this extreme cost to me for parts that in 30 years, Ive never had a failure.
RickA wrote:
The 500$ fuel pump died on my KTM. Can you get that at Autozone for 20$? OR fix it at the track?
Yes you can get same pump from eBay for 50$ without KTM packing.
rrjr
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3/16/2017 11:57am
Who gives a crap about snowmobiles. They're like a quad without wheels. This is VitalMX not VitalSnowmobile/Outboard/SkidaddleIsFullOfShit
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 12:03pm
logan_140 wrote:
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but...
Just curious what benefits an efi 2 stroke is going to have.. no bog? Snappier throttle response? More torque? Was looking at getting a 350 but I almost guarantee if these sell well (and they will) there will be an SX model for 2019..
Potts wrote:
Living in California I'm hoping this will give is "Green Sticker" two strokes!
This is kinda why I think Beta will win this OEM battle to come.

Beta 300 RR has oil injection. Add EFI and you're 2020 CARB compliant. Like snowmobiles.

The kicker is, 2 strokes are cleaner burning per HP/CC than 4 strokes.

I mean you have 600 2 strokes in the same class as 4 cylinder 1,000 cc 4 strokes. Thats a lot more hydrocarbons being emitted.
And they are damn near smokeless when cold. Thats hard to beat.

Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 12:02pm
rrjr wrote:
Who gives a crap about snowmobiles. They're like a quad without wheels. This is VitalMX not VitalSnowmobile/Outboard/SkidaddleIsFullOfShit
Tell that to all GNCC Six Days and Baja champs with sleds out in the hills.

Where do you think all this technology comes from?

Acidreamer
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3/16/2017 12:51pm
BobPA wrote:
KTM injectors are under $80 for my 350
Skidaddle wrote:
A 4 pack of injectors for a Kawasaki ninja are less than 125 bucks. probaby the same as his 450F [img]https://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/NyUAAOSwLEtYhqKc/s-l225.jpg[/img]
A 4 pack of injectors for a Kawasaki ninja are less than 125 bucks.

probaby the same as his 450F

Completely different injectors. Why would you think injectors for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine would work on a 450 single? You realize different injectors are used for different sized motors? Theres a reason a civic and a semi dont use the same injectors.

Race machines do not and will never use the same injectors as a snow mobile or a car or even a street bike.

God i hope youre just a troll

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